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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
The player that cheeses 10% will be better at STANDARD builds. The player that cheeses 50% will be better at "CHEESE" builds. Now which one of these players is better? Depends on your definition. The player that wins more games is the better ladder player. This doesn't mean they are the better player. But once a 50% cheeser is put into situations where he has to play the same player multiple times, they could be at a disadvantage. That being said, I'm cheesing my fucking brain out right now. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 16 2010 23:16 JTPROG wrote: In my opinion, which is probably correct, cheesing should not be the strategy you use on a game-to-game basis. Simply put - cheesing is not difficult. I couldn't read any further once I got to that point. You're wrong on so many levels. | ||
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MMmmmmmmmm
United States36 Posts
on the other hand cheesing will put you in more novel situations that you may be able to bullshit your way out of which could actually be the most beneficial in terms of truly understanding the intricacies of the game. so basically this is a dumb discussion because who knows which will be better. i think we can all agree that having 1 all-in build that you do over and over again and ragequit when it fails is not going to help you improve as a player even though it might give you a nice ladder ranking. i believe this is the type of player he is speaking ill of. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote: Because you face random people on the ladder each game who aren't expecting cheese. Try a BO5. You won't win a tourney with cheese. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. Tell that to motherfucking Julyzerg. First Golden Mouse awarded Zerg player. | ||
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JTPROG
United States254 Posts
On March 17 2010 02:46 freelander wrote: Tell that to motherfucking Julyzerg. First Golden Mouse awarded Zerg player. Did he cheese every single game? Was he a solid player overall? I already posted an argument to this. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
How can really anything be cheese in a 3 week old game? People barely even know how to play it, everything is just trial and error at this point. Think about chess, there are many different play styles, there isn't one accepted way to play chess, whatever gets you the win is what you should do. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
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MaestroSC
United States2073 Posts
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CauthonLuck
United States93 Posts
There are those who label any build that involves more than 1 rax/gate in the early game as "cheese" or "all-in," but regardless of how you see it, these early pressure builds force people to vary their play. I used to get 3 warp gate "cheesed" with a proxy pylon on the map nearly every game TvP and it enraged me that I was basically forced to open 2 rax builds or I would die within the first 5 minutes. After a week of using this opening with a defensive mindset, I found it to be a strong build to apply pressure in the early game even if your opponent wasn't using proxy warp gates and saw that it transitioned well into the mid game and securing an expansion unlike similar builds from bw where making more than 1 rax was akin to all-in play. Being pressured by these "cheese builds" forced me to take another look at how the game flow in sc2 works and left me with a stronger understanding of opening builds and their transitions into mid game play. Or maybe I just want an excuse to cheese people as much as possible. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote: Because you face random people on the ladder each game who aren't expecting cheese. Try a BO5. You won't win a tourney with cheese. Winning on the ladder essentially means nothing if it's cheese. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/boxernum1.jpg) | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
you might think cheese is very easy to do but they are not. there is a lot of planning, measuring the time for the rush to reach your opponent, scouting paths etc, probabilities and the opponent's style. i think what you are trying to say is that it doesn't help you practice mechanics and how to play long games, which is rather true. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
Cheesy build doesnt have to be luck based, it becomes luck based when your opponent does a cheesy build or normal strategy/tactic without scouting you and end up winning on it, thats lucky on his behalf and stupid on yours because you didnt scout and counter, i bet sometimes you scout an enemy and see that you would gain an advantage later in the game or even win the game if you do a cheesy tactic. Im not saying cheesy tactics works 30-40-50-60-100% of the time, im saying that from time to time it might be worth going for the cheesy tactic to get the advantage or win, no matter where or who you play. and even though its a cheesy build then you wont do it to perfection just because its cheesy " as the OP said " you still need micro and macro to pull it off perfect, AND AGAIN im not saying you need the same amount of micro/macro as in lategame, im just saying some cheesy builds do require some sort of skill to pull off effectively and for those who says that some cheesy builds CANT be countered then its either because your not good enough to counter it, or its imbalanced, and if its imbalanced then its most likely gonna get fine tuned " nerfed " by blizzard at some point. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
On March 17 2010 02:32 JTPROG wrote: There was a tourney where someone won every games using cheese? Even if so, how many times did that happen? "play with your best chance to win" And you won't win if you don't have a SOLID game besides cheesing, and this is done by practicing predominantly standard play, which is the point of this thread. Cheese little, standard much, if you want to get good. I doubt anyone has ever won a major tourney did not have a SOLID standard game. And i'm sure they didn't spend much more than 5% of their time playing cheeses either. So now this theoretical player who is equal in lifestyle, talent, and motive of every other player of the world is cheesing all of the time instead of half the time? You provide no context to your argument, Id prefer to be the cheesey player against Flash or Bisu 100% of the time, or compared to Korean players in SC1 because I don't have hours to play every day. It would be way more fun to have mastered a bunch of cheese and win some than practice macro and still lose to every one with better macro (aka everyone) You're full of crap man...even Jaedong is super aggressive and takes lots of shots, if you see an opportunity take it. It would be stupid not to cheese players who go FE all the time. Also while their are some cheeses that either win or don't win, there are many plays considered "cheese" which have a transition, and maximizing the advantage after that can get complex and is very important to learn. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23470 Posts
Player A cheeses 50% of the time in games. Player B cheeses 10% of the time in games. That's not enough information. If Player B played against players who cheesed 90% of the time, he will play generally much safer, and will be used to defending and winning games against this. In a Bo5 if Player A cheeses a lot he probably won't do so well. If player B played against other players who all read this thread and decide to cheese 10% of the time he will, even if he defends it he won't be as comfortable with the transitions and might lose the advantage he gained. So without opponents who cheese you in practice how do you beat the ones that do and do it against you in a tournament? You need to play a whole range of players in ladder, making everyone go do some safe economical fast expand build is just silly. Also, take into account Player A in this case will either play shorter games and therefore get much more games or else he will play longer games transitioning out of his cheese with either advantage of disadvantage, which will help him a lot. In short, I don't think people should view this cheese thing on another level. It's just part of the game and it's as important as fast expand builds. | ||
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fyyer
United States145 Posts
Does the game give a fuck if you got scv rushed? Nope. Does the game give a fuck if you got 6 pooled? Nope. Every in game strategy directed towards the final goal - Winning, is valid. | ||
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
If you try to start playing super tight you will lose to everyone with better macro and not have then perspective of cheese, and therefor lose every game against a decent player. Not the most relaxing thing after a day of work. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Cheese in laddering is to gain ranks (often as fast as possible). It requires less effort and is mechanically easier to execute and requires minimal to no scouting. It's a good way to beat people who are not familiar/practiced against whatever cheese you're doing. Cheese in tournaments is often used to beat players who are better than you. It also can be a way to overcome a disadvantageous matchup on a certain map. Most importantly though, cheese keeps people from doing eco abusive strategies every game. If everyone played standard, there'd be no reason not to eco abuse (14 cc, etc). Cheese has to be part of the game, but it serves as a balance. This thread is about cheesing in laddering for the sake of winning. Winning what? You should be learning as much about the game as you can. It's not even a real ladder. It's beta. I think cheeses are fine every now and then, but it should not be the only weapon in your arsenal. As for what Idra has been saying about cheese being luck based play - it's entirely true. You're banking on whether your opponent: a) scouts you b) knows how to respond c) has worse micro than you These things are entirely outside your control and you're basically flipping a coin for the game. It's legitimately bad play and it proves nothing at all about skill levels. People will continue to do it because they legitimately suck at the game and can't win without it, but at the end of the day they've accomplished nothing. | ||
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Trowabarton756
United States870 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:59 JTPROG wrote: lol I think IdrA is the only one who understands/seems to agree with what I'm saying. That's okay, I'll take a pro gamer over 100 others. but flash also cheeses.... | ||
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sAAvior
Poland248 Posts
If your game doesn't meet this requirement then you suck and "cheesing" against you is very clever thing to do. If it does meet this requirement why would you mind people "cheesing" and getting automatic 40% or something against you ? (if you are THAT much better just play more solidly at the beginning of the game). As to "cheesing" in ladders, you gotta learn various ways to exploit opponents. It's quite possible that you will meet some, even very good, whose the biggest weakness is that they lose 70% of the time to 5-pool. Not 5-pooling against such people in the name of some strange "cheese is bad" philosophy is just dumb. Also lol @ at Idra's argument about "bad for esports" the most succesful televised game (poker) is that popular exactly because of element of luck. Same with golf for that matter. I really fail to see why the game which has no luck involved should be more popular , better for tv, or better "for esports" in general. | ||
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