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On March 17 2010 00:16 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 00:06 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I'm glad you took time to argue your points. The topic title could have been from some frustrated player posting 3 lines in anger after being 'cheesed'. So thanks for that.
That said I really could not disagree more. You argue any competent player is capable of cheesing to perfection which is very far from the truth. There definitely is a lot of skill in the minor differences. The same small differences you might forget to perform in a long game that do not matter when you have large armies. You might be overseeing them because of this, because when performing an early game strategy designed to take the game they are important and difficult. As it's possible to win games with 'cheese' at the highest level amongst progamers in Korea you are basically arguing anybody could take a game from those guys performing the same kind of cheese. It's plain wrong. There is a lot of skill in cheesing as there is in a long game. It requires planning, practice and lots of thought. What you might argue is that you don't need the same kind of micro/macro as you do in a long game which is true, yet it doesn't mean everyone becomes equal.
The other argument against your post is that this is the Beta and we are testing. You are pretty much required to use whatever it takes to win so that it brings awareness to Blizzard's numbers about balancing the races, balancing the early and the late game. If everyone would refuse to cheese in the Beta ladder and Blizzard therefor keeps everything the same, then the effective cheeses will become 100% of the tournament games after SC2 is released, as tournament games are all about winning. You have a good point, but let me pose to you a question, and this goes to everyone trying to argue against my post. If one player cheesed 50% of their games, and another player cheesed only 10% of their games, after one year of intensive playing, who do you think would be the better player?
You probably want to hear the answer "the one with 10% of cheeses because he practiced more standard play" and i tell you "The one with 50% cheeses, since his cheeses have better followup and his better followup after cheeses also improved his standard play"
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On March 17 2010 00:49 iG.ClouD wrote:
I feel like adding a cheese to your gameplay is very useful so you are never predictable and the opponent always know he has to scout you carefully. Practicing cheese is nice, I had this rule on starcraft that whenever I played a zerg on a ladder I would proxy gate 50% of the second games against the same opponents and overall I'm pretty sure I learnt much about very strict timings I wouldn't know otherwise.
This is exactly correct. In poker, if you read any poker books at least, there is a sort of standard that you should bluff 1 in every 6 hands assuming all players are of decent/equal skill level and the table is not too loose or whatever. A bluff can be likened to a cheese.
I know we are getting a little off topic, so I reread the op and I'll reply directly.
Doing 'Cheese' is in fact a great way to get better at a game. Obviously if you are playing to win, you will use the most effective strategy to achieve those wins. If this happens to be a strategy that some guy or the general public doesn't like, fuck em. Their loss, your gain. (I'm obviously talking within the limits of the game, and I'm not condoning cheating or anything else illegitimate). If the 'cheese' is not imbalanced in any way then there are counters, you will become predictable and/or people will learn how to counter you. Then you will learn the counters to their counters, etc. like I already explained a few times on the previous page.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2010 00:27 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 00:23 Chill wrote:
I play for myself. I'm not trying to improve, I'm playing to have fun. If I feel cheese is going to be fun, I do it. This is fun, not self-improvement. True, if you play purely for the sake of fun, then by all means I'm not referring to you, and you should play how you wish. But to everyone else, look at the question I posed, can you honestly say it will be the 50% cheeser who will be better than the 10% cheeser after one year? I think not. And i'm saying if you HAD to give an answer, which one would you likely choose.
Better at what? Cheesing? Definitely. Winning more games? Maybe. I'm not sure why everyone sees the defensive macro game through such romantic glasses.
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On March 17 2010 00:50 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I'm really curious as to what prompted the op to make this thread.
I'm willing to bet he got cheesed and raged, instead of thinking, "Hmm what can I do to adapt my strategy in order to still keep on par with the economic standard as well as defend these crappy cheesers".
Nope, I just want players who are trying to become better to have an epiphany. I cheese myself from time to time, as everyone should, I'm just saying it shouldn't even be CLOSE to 20% of your games. It's a valid tool, just not one that will make you, technically, much better in general.
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I am sorry but what the hell is the purpose of this thread? Cheese is part of the game, who wants to cheese, then he can. Who doesn't like cheese, he doesn't have to do it. Simple as that..Regarding comparison of the practice gain, i don't think it is viable to compare that, because there are so many factors that influence it. It is good to be able to cheese when needed and it is not easy to cheese effectively so people have to practice that. So your 50% - 100% practice gain is just irrelevant bs.
And yes i also agree with Chill here
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Calgary26003 Posts
By the way, given your (albeit unrealistic) conditions in the OP, it would be irrational not to cheese. By your own admission it's easy to do and has a good chance of working. If that's true why wouldn't you cheese?
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I'm not sure why everyone sees the defensive macro game through such romantic glasses.
You sure it's everyone? I reckon if you were to get a statistician in on the case, there'd be a definite correlation between playing Terran and complaining about cheeses.
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On March 17 2010 00:58 Chill wrote:
By the way, given your (albeit unrealistic) conditions in the OP, it would be irrational not to cheese. By your own admission it's easy to do and has a good chance of working. If that's true why wouldn't you cheese?
I would, but why do it unless it's an important game. If it's easy to execute and takes minimal practice I'd rather spend my time playing the full game spectrum of macro/micro/management/etc. I can cheese when needed, to throw people off if I was in a tourny or something like that. Ladder seems like practice more or less, and much more practice is needed for non-cheese, which is inevitably much more useful.
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On March 16 2010 23:20 TS-Rupbar wrote:
What if you wanna practice cheese? Practicing cheese with friends is stupid, as you can only play one game with them. Then they'll know it's coming. It's also super boring to practice vs cheese.
Cheese doesn't take micro? -.-
Everyone knows cheesing every time isn't the best way to get better at this game, but where else other than in ladder play would you practice cheese?
I practice cheese with my partners. All it requires is for you to find 2 or 3 variations of each opening cheese (2-gate into dts, 2-gate into proxy 2-gate zealot, The Stove) Choose the best variation for each map/opponent =D.
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I play terran and must admit I play for short game very often. This is mainly because people dont seem to make enough units early, and are very vournable trying to either fe or tech up fast. I got up to 9 platinum mainly with games lasting no longer then 7-10 mins.
I can safely say that atleast 80% of the games i try to rush it works, and it has alot to do with denying them scout. I wall off down ramp, that way you will only need 1 rax+depot to wall off, no idea why not more people do this.
I agree that it should not be your main strategy when playing, but its a beta and people should do whatever it takes to win just to find things that are "imbalanced" so it can be balanced out.
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To add to what Chill said, I personally dislike this whole eco macro long game every person has copycat FE builds that SCBW's metagame has shifted into. The game has become somewhat stagnant because of this, to the point where their strategies are so perfected that they can deal with anything and respond to anything. This is partly the reason why (I believe, anyways) that there are so many new weird maps and map concepts. To keep the game fresh and keep players for just doing their 1 strategy that is safe on every LT clone map.
Whenever I see a pro like Fantasy getting fucking rushed so bad that he lifts off his base and almost cries I fucking cheer. When I saw Boxer bunker rush Yellow over and over to the point where he claims imbalance, I fucking loved it. 'Cheese' is great. And There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it every game if you want to. If you are trying to be a great player then you should definitely practice any strategy to the point of exhaustion.
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"Chesse" does make you a better player gives you timings, practice for micro and macro, the balance of micro/macro is so damn important in chesse, micro your atacking units or produce another round at home.... Microing probably wins you that battlel but with out reinforments you may still losse, macroing another round will give you reinforsments but you may losse some of your current units....
Chesse does make you a better player, maybe not a macroing 3-4 bases but gives you balance in macro/micro and very nice micro for harrasment, wich will demand multitask from your oponent, you see my point??? Sure won't get you that much better at some things but it will get you better at others, if you play standard and your oponent plays standar for 100 games then you find a "chesser" and he rapes you hard many games with varios chesse cause you had no idea how to defend cause you play standar all the time, had no idea of early timings or openings he knows all that.. you don't are you the better player???
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:01 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 00:58 Chill wrote:
By the way, given your (albeit unrealistic) conditions in the OP, it would be irrational not to cheese. By your own admission it's easy to do and has a good chance of working. If that's true why wouldn't you cheese? I would, but why do it unless it's an important game. If it's easy to execute and takes minimal practice I'd rather spend my time playing the full game spectrum of macro/micro/management/etc. I can cheese when needed, to throw people off if I was in a tourny or something like that. Ladder seems like practice more or less, and much more practice is needed for non-cheese, which is inevitably much more useful.
practice for what?
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On March 17 2010 01:05 Pekkz wrote:
I play terran and must admit I play for short game very often. This is mainly because people dont seem to make enough units early, and are very vournable trying to either fe or tech up fast. I got up to 9 platinum mainly with games lasting no longer then 7-10 mins.
I can safely say that atleast 80% of the games i try to rush it works, and it has alot to do with denying them scout. I wall off down ramp, that way you will only need 1 rax+depot to wall off, no idea why not more people do this.
I agree that it should not be your main strategy when playing, but its a beta and people should do whatever it takes to win just to find things that are "imbalanced" so it can be balanced out.
And do you feel you were alot better than your opponents doing this? Do you feel it was really hard to do and/or took much practice? Do you feel you were getting better at the game by doing it? Or was it something almost anyone can just pick up and win with? I'm not saying anything about your skill level, you can be great for all I know, just want your opinion to make a point.
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On March 17 2010 01:08 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 01:01 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 00:58 Chill wrote:
By the way, given your (albeit unrealistic) conditions in the OP, it would be irrational not to cheese. By your own admission it's easy to do and has a good chance of working. If that's true why wouldn't you cheese? I would, but why do it unless it's an important game. If it's easy to execute and takes minimal practice I'd rather spend my time playing the full game spectrum of macro/micro/management/etc. I can cheese when needed, to throw people off if I was in a tourny or something like that. Ladder seems like practice more or less, and much more practice is needed for non-cheese, which is inevitably much more useful. practice for what?
Practice for the ladder itself, ladder tourneys, tourneys in general, or if you aspire to do anything bigger than just the ladder.
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Who the fuck cares what he feels like when doing a strategy? Who the fuck cares if was 'hard to do'? Who the fuck cares if it required more or less practice? How can you get better than winning already, lol? If anyone can do it then by all means EVERYONE fucking do it please.
He probably feels good because he won and that's the bottom line.
Listen dude, If you want to feel satisfied for doing something hard that requires a lot of practice and not everyone can do. Then take up rubix cube or maybe even just 5000 piece puzzles. RTS is obviously not for you.
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On March 17 2010 01:06 CharlieMurphy wrote:
To add to what Chill said, I personally dislike this whole eco macro long game every person has copycat FE builds that SCBW's metagame has shifted into. The game has become somewhat stagnant because of this, to the point where their strategies are so perfected that they can deal with anything and respond to anything. This is partly the reason why (I believe, anyways) that there are so many new weird maps and map concepts. To keep the game fresh and keep players for just doing their 1 strategy that is safe on every LT clone map.
Whenever I see a pro like Fantasy getting fucking rushed so bad that he lifts off his base and almost cries I fucking cheer. When I saw Boxer bunker rush Yellow over and over to the point where he claims imbalance, I fucking loved it. 'Cheese' is great. And There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing it every game if you want to. If you are trying to be a great player then you should definitely practice any strategy to the point of exhaustion.
the reason the bw meta game shifted to that is that people like to win. cheese became more rare because its inherently luck based. doesnt matter how strategically genius you are, if they scout or guess what you're doing, and what you're doing is dependent on them not knowing what you're doing, you lose. you can know how good flash is, you can know exactly what hes gonna do, and hes still gonna beat you because hes just that fucking good. how people could prefer horang to flash given that, or how they fuckin love fantasy getting allined by a trash player because he didnt wall properly, is beyond me. not only is it gay, its bad for esports. ya cheese can be exciting (because of the luck/simplicity of it, its very obvious to a crowd that when proxy bbs gets scouted the game has reached a turning point. the climax is less clear in real games), but bad players winning, and luck based games, are not good for something that wants to be a real competition.
also, oddly enough, its largely bad players (the kind who are capable of winning because of these cheesy strategies) who defend it as some kind of strategical genius. for instance, someone who would ling allin a famous player and then post the replay of it while bragging about how they masterminded the strategical flow of the game.
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Calgary26003 Posts
On March 17 2010 01:12 JTPROG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 01:08 Chill wrote:On March 17 2010 01:01 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 00:58 Chill wrote:
By the way, given your (albeit unrealistic) conditions in the OP, it would be irrational not to cheese. By your own admission it's easy to do and has a good chance of working. If that's true why wouldn't you cheese? I would, but why do it unless it's an important game. If it's easy to execute and takes minimal practice I'd rather spend my time playing the full game spectrum of macro/micro/management/etc. I can cheese when needed, to throw people off if I was in a tourny or something like that. Ladder seems like practice more or less, and much more practice is needed for non-cheese, which is inevitably much more useful. practice for what? Practice for the ladder itself, ladder tourneys, tourneys in general, or if you aspire to do anything bigger than just the ladder.
And if cheese is working to qualify me, why wouldn't it work in those actual tournaments? You are making a lot of generalizations that you assume people are just going to fall in line with, like cheese = easy, skill-less; drawn-out macro game = the purest form of skill.
I would like you to start from the beginning, make your real point, and back it up. This wishy-washy "you won't get better" doesn't cut it because if I'm winning with cheese what else do I need to get better at? I'm already winning? I don't care that I'm not winning the way you want me to.
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On March 17 2010 00:54 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 00:27 JTPROG wrote:On March 17 2010 00:23 Chill wrote:
I play for myself. I'm not trying to improve, I'm playing to have fun. If I feel cheese is going to be fun, I do it. This is fun, not self-improvement. True, if you play purely for the sake of fun, then by all means I'm not referring to you, and you should play how you wish. But to everyone else, look at the question I posed, can you honestly say it will be the 50% cheeser who will be better than the 10% cheeser after one year? I think not. And i'm saying if you HAD to give an answer, which one would you likely choose. Better at what? Cheesing? Definitely. Winning more games? Maybe. I'm not sure why everyone sees the defensive macro game through such romantic glasses.
Spoken like a true protoss player Chill.
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