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On April 02 2010 10:21 0mgVitaminE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2010 02:16 Jyxz wrote:
SC1: terran has 12 units
toss has 13
zerg 10 Even so, zerg in sc1 was much more diverse than it is in sc2. Each matchup had different unit compositions, and even if you used the same composition how you used each unit changed. Mutas are a great example of this, as their role changes drastically from mid game ZvT to ZvP.
10 years of trying shit out and making strats will do that.
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Sorry to necro the thread but a thought just crossed my mind. Even though zerg is about numbers (which I only agree halfway with. They are only about numbers when it comes to production, but their units are just as expensive as terran units in general)
The diversity of the zerg isn't necessarily because of a lack of spellcasters but because they have no TACTICAL units that can do serious damage in small groups of like 2.
Consider 2 reapers, 2 banshees, 2 hellions, 2 vikings or 2 ghosts. These are units with some serious harass/tactical potential.
Zerg does not have any unit that compares to that kind of destruction in small numbers. Banelings are suicidal so they obviously don't work.
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On May 02 2010 06:13 Vexx wrote:
Sorry to necro the thread but a thought just crossed my mind. Even though zerg is about numbers (which I only agree halfway with. They are only about numbers when it comes to production, but their units are just as expensive as terran units in general)
The diversity of the zerg isn't necessarily because of a lack of spellcasters but because they have no TACTICAL units that can do serious damage in small groups of like 2.
Consider 2 reapers, 2 banshees, 2 hellions, 2 vikings or 2 ghosts. These are units with some serious harass/tactical potential.
Zerg does not have any unit that compares to that kind of destruction in small numbers. Banelings are suicidal so they obviously don't work.
That's where the Lurker used to come in.
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Dustin obviously wasn't aware the number of units the zerg had. Thanks for reminding him.
This is kind of a dumb OP imo. Dustin starts out by outlining that the reason why zerg are not diverse is because 3 units in the zerg arsenal aren't really being used.
This is a valid statement.
The logical solution to this problem is to balance them, not to make 3 more useless units.
Problem : Zerg are only using Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Mutalisks, Hydralisks, and Brood Lords, causing a loss of army diversity.
Which of these solutions sounds better
Solution a : Rebalance the remaining zerg units, Corruptors, Infestors, and Ultralisks, to see more regular use.
Solution b : Add in 3 more units with no clear precedent completely imbalancing the game a month before release on the hope that people will actually use them.
Lets give the zerg more units if once the units that already have are all frequently used, there is still a problem.
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sorry i couldn't read all 9+ pages of this
But i think for blizzard's side, not having a lot of units for any of the races would be in their best interest
As we all know, SC2 will be released in 3 separate times; one for each campaign.
Within each release, Blizzard could use the creation of new units or abilities as marketing tactics to draw people in to purchase the game.
Some people do not care for the campaign so they are satisfied with just online play. However, if they release expansions with new units like they did with BW, people would flock the stores for it.
The counter argument to this would be that blizzard could just release new units via web updates and sell the campaign as a separate entity; however, if you were blizzard, what would make you more money: Selling Campaign + expansion in disc form or selling them separately each at their respective prices?
I do agree that Zerg lack unit diversity, which is mainly why I use them because it is easy to understand unit match-ups and army compositions. I can see how this would get "boring" in terms of gameplay
however, we must remember that as a result of our experiences with SC1, we can't be expecting SC2 to succeed the success that was found in SC1.
This is a new game and we should have new hopes for it instead of dwelling into SC1 for answers/solutions
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I have faith that Blizz will probably destroy some of the most boring/op strats over-time like they did in the transition of SC into BW. So personally I'm just hoping Roaches get Scout treatment.
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you should have the warp prism for protoss and the overlord for zerg since terran have the medivac.
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Blizzard's random removal of the Lurker just before Beta along with their insistence that Zerg should have less combat units than the other races will continue to astound us all. Lurkers quite simply would solve the problem Zerg is having with diversity, adding ANY new unit to the Zerg army is the only way to accomplish this. Even if the standard Zerg army consisted of every combat units, including Queens, it still wouldn't have the potential diversity of Terran or Protoss.
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On May 02 2010 09:20 SichuanPanda wrote:
Blizzard's random removal of the Lurker just before Beta along with their insistence that Zerg should have less combat units than the other races will continue to astound us all. Lurkers quite simply would solve the problem Zerg is having with diversity, adding ANY new unit to the Zerg army is the only way to accomplish this. Even if the standard Zerg army consisted of every combat units, including Queens, it still wouldn't have the potential diversity of Terran or Protoss.
Or when they give overseer some more abilities. I dont really see people using many corruptors, simply cuz they attack air only, unless they get an ability that can ground units as well (not talking about corruption of course). The infestor is a bit 'doubtful', sure they can do something nice, but I think its rather poor that the key to success with this unit is to use your opponents units :| . On top of that it has to be quite close in combat and is easily sniped.
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Don't forget the Zerg have mobile defense buildings. They can wall or semi-wall, can be healed by the Queen, have good range and damage against most weak units. The Zerg can expand and saturate an expansion faster than any other army. We also have Nydus networks which have a whole range of uses (remote mining high yields for example). Also the Zerg probably should have less combat-units since they can switch up so fast. Zerg has more effective diversity than any other race. If I have early warning of my opponents tech I can tailor-make an army instantly. I also have fewer rally points to deal with.
I don't think Zerg need new combat units, they should just re-evaluate the lesser used ones. They could maybe buff spine/spore crawlers by giving them extra armor when burrowed but letting them attack when unburrowed. Any buff to mechanics or tactical choices aside from adding units is probably the best thing.
Personally I'm fine with the Queen mechanics as well. They could maybe buff the heal ability so it costs less.
Also I disagree with people who say Zerg have scouting problems. Not only do we have overlords, overseers, and changelings, but we can just send out burrowed roaches or fast lings to all the expansions or watchtowers. I can't tell you how many games I've won because of 2 to 6 Zerglings that I bought early and just left all around the map.
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Part of the problem, IMO, is that zerg don't use burrow tactically enough, setting up ambushes and the like (though maybe that's not efficient enough, I don't know) and part of it is the pure effectiveness of the units that ARE so commonly used, I mean hydralisks rape almost everything and have few vulnerabilities.
Partially, though, the greater part I think, IS the ability diversity of the other two races vs. zerg. Maybe doing stuff like giving the corrupter a unique ability that affects ground (like an attack speed slow, say, small AOE though, so you'd need lots to have an effect) that thus give them synergy with other units that attack ground. And one I've always thought should exist is that units that can move burrowed should be tunneling, and thus able to "cliff-jump".
There's my $.02, not that I expect anyone cares.
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EPT
