|
You don't really need to make new units for Z. The first step towards promoting diversity is balancing the zerg units that are already there.
First, I would really love to see Zerglings get bonus damage against Armored. (I know this sounds like blasphemy but I feel it is needed for them in SC2)
Banelings are fine IMO.
Roach need an armor nerf... I really feel they are the main culprit here, if Roaches are less tanky overall it would promote more flanking instead of A-moving which would also promote Infestors.
I have no problems with Hydras.
A T3 offensive spell for the overseer would be great... not necessarily dark swarm but something that would promote ultra/ling usage.
Ultras need to be smaller.
Slight BroodLord nerf cause theyre simply op.
Objective of these changes is to promote the use of melee zerg units and spell casters
|
I'll post what I posted in b-net. I think its pretty good.
Its pretty clear that the problem is zerg tier2.
Zerg needs a unit in tier2 that gives them another option to mass.
Protoss have three divergent tech options, while terran have simply more units to add on as the game progresses. Zerg has literally 4 units to choose from+banelings, which are only used with lings anyway, Roach/hydra, roach/muta, lingbling/hydra, lingbling/muta. I suspect that was the intended theme of the zerg, large masses of a couple unit times. Thats fine, the army is suppose to consist of few unit types, but that obviously doesn't mean the race shouldn't have a variety of units to pick from when making that army.
Zerg literally only have Hydra and Mutas. Mutas are problematic in their on right.
It isn't that Mutas are weak, but they've become a much more niche role. Hydralisks are unique as the only non t2 unit usable as a "Basic unit", yet are still relatively gas intensive. This presents a greater confliction with mutas, no with a niche unit as well (LurksvMutas), but with Basic unit Versus Mutas, or General versus Niche, in which cases the Mutas status as more of a niche unit is highlighted due to this confliction. Gas is simultaneously more sparse, yet less demanded of early game, yet remains just as valuable mid/late.
In the end, Z is basically forced to go Hydra in T2, unless theirs a "Niche" for the newly niche Mutalisks.
I suspect blizzard doesn't want to add a new T2 unit because they want to leave room for expansions.
Not out of greed to get you to buy the expansion lol, (and I'm a pretty cynical guy, but this isn't the reason here)
Rather they just want a stable, simplistic base in which they can expand on later. I'm sure this kind of basic, engaging and oddly symmetrical design is very appealing for them. They probably just don't LIKE the notion of having to draw from the expansion pool of "niche units and additions" , designed to expand a fully independently functioning game to create said independently functioning game.
In which case an Infestor buff is exactly, spot on, whats needed. Not just a statistics buff, but a reworking.
A armor debuff onto fungal will let zergling both remain useful all game, as well as make it viable to skill Hydras/roaches altogether for rushed infestors. This needs to be supplemented by a powerful infested terrans spell in order to make massed infestors appealing, preferably as a learned upgrade for them, and to supplant the absolute 100% need zerg have for hydras
|
On April 01 2010 11:43 karebear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 11:38 zomgzergrush wrote:On April 01 2010 11:37 karebear wrote:On April 01 2010 11:35 Synwave wrote:On April 01 2010 11:28 karebear wrote:
is the medivac exactly a 'combat unit'?
it's more of a support than anything. that's like calling dropships in sc1 a 'combat unit' No its like calling the medic in sc1 a combat unit, which it is. Healing an army on the move increases its combat efficacy by a massive degree. ok well then the queen should be a combat unit too. so the ratio is 11:11  not 11:11:8 Queens cant move fast enough to keep up with any other z unit same with thors for the terran
Queens don't have cannons that one shot kills units. Zerg units also move much faster than a queen compared to the difference in speed between a thor and the rest of the T army. Finally, I'm like 90% sure that a thor is faster than a queen off creep.
On April 01 2010 11:54 karebear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2010 11:51 bendez wrote:On April 01 2010 11:37 karebear wrote:On April 01 2010 11:35 Synwave wrote:On April 01 2010 11:28 karebear wrote:
is the medivac exactly a 'combat unit'?
it's more of a support than anything. that's like calling dropships in sc1 a 'combat unit' No its like calling the medic in sc1 a combat unit, which it is. Healing an army on the move increases its combat efficacy by a massive degree. ok well then the queen should be a combat unit too. so the ratio is 11:11 not 11:11:8 Queen is a defensive unit for macro purposes. It it not a combat unit you silly child. the queen is a unit that can heal in combat, do moderate dps to both air and ground at range, has a decent amount of hp, and isn't light or armored so it doesn't take extra damage from any attacks, just the base damage. i don't see how it can't be considered a combat unit.
Queens can only heal ONE unit/structure for 50 energy, not 25 like spawn larvae. ONE. ONE zerg unit isn't terribly game changing.
They also cost 150 minerals for only slightly more damage than a ling.
Honestly, I like it how people who don't play the race think they've figured out so much more than us. Should really phrase these statements as:
"why DON'T Z's do xyz?"
followed by "well, good terran sir, thats because of abc" or maybe even possibly "haven't thought of that, we will see if it is viable"
instead of all the
"you guys are playing the race wrong even though I don't play it at all" bullshit.
On April 01 2010 13:34 heyitsme wrote:
You don't really need to make new units for Z. The first step towards promoting diversity is balancing the zerg units that are already there.
First, I would really love to see Zerglings get bonus damage against Armored. (I know this sounds like blasphemy but I feel it is needed for them in SC2)
Banelings are fine IMO.
Roach need an armor nerf... I really feel they are the main culprit here, if Roaches are less tanky overall it would promote more flanking instead of A-moving which would also promote Infestors.
I have no problems with Hydras.
A T3 offensive spell for the overseer would be great... not necessarily dark swarm but something that would promote ultra/ling usage.
Ultras need to be smaller.
Slight BroodLord nerf cause theyre simply op.
Objective of these changes is to promote the use of melee zerg units and spell casters
+1.... cept roaches do NOT need an armor nerf. The current nerfs have already made zvz even more retarded and effectively removed any useful "crackling" type upgrade from T3.
|
On April 01 2010 13:34 heyitsme wrote:
You don't really need to make new units for Z. The first step towards promoting diversity is balancing the zerg units that are already there.
First, I would really love to see Zerglings get bonus damage against Armored. (I know this sounds like blasphemy but I feel it is needed for them in SC2)
Banelings are fine IMO.
Roach need an armor nerf... I really feel they are the main culprit here, if Roaches are less tanky overall it would promote more flanking instead of A-moving which would also promote Infestors.
I have no problems with Hydras.
A T3 offensive spell for the overseer would be great... not necessarily dark swarm but something that would promote ultra/ling usage.
Ultras need to be smaller.
Slight BroodLord nerf cause theyre simply op.
Objective of these changes is to promote the use of melee zerg units and spell casters
These are all great ideas.
But I've seen so many great ideas for a lot of things, and then when the patches come it's always the most boring things they choose to do. The races will never change, there won't be any new units or even abilities/upgrades.
Just take the brood lord for example. I've seen a lot of suggestions, including an energy bar for the broodlings. What does blizzard do? Nerf the damage... I saw a lot of suggestions to fix the warpgate, but what does Blizzard do? Nerf the research time. I've never seen any creative change to anything but I've read a lot of great suggestions. The overseer change is brilliant, the zergling upgrade is brilliant, but they will NEVER be implemented.
Zerg is doomed. 
|
On April 01 2010 12:17 Synwave wrote:
Why would I expose my macro unit to the front lines?
It isn't as if reinforcing takes terribly long. Not to mention any slightly faster reinforce that could change a battle would be decided by the enemy just shooting the queen in the head first.
This post also doesn't address unit diversity at all. It just talks about moving a queen to the front lines. THE QUEEN IS ZERGS MACRO! Jeebus I wish people without a beta key would stfu in these threads.
+1.
|
Jesus, god forbid one should make more than a Queen per nest. Unthinkable really.
|
I would definitely like to see another unit in there... They got rid of the lurker right before Beta was released. but I think we'll just have to wait til the expansions.
|
So why again did they remove the lurker? Can't they just adjust it and place it in T2, that'll help unit diversity a bit.
|
idk, i usually use more type of units in ZvT and ZvP than my opponents do.
Like hydra-ling-baneling-corruptor-broodlord maybe even roaches against P (or mutas ofc but then i use less of the others) and ling-baneling-roach-muta against T, and sometimes throwing in other units liek broodlords and infestors
The problem is with ZvZ. Either one million roaches or one trillion speedlings
Although i wouldnt mind a low tier caster unit, with a spell like buffing other units to have extra dmg against armored
Anyone else thinking about this?
|
On March 16 2010 06:04 McCain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 06:00 FictionJV wrote:
You forgot the queen, that makes it 11
And since an overlord can be used as dropship, dropping creep spell you could count him as 12
Ofcourse that would give the zerg 3 non-combat units, 2 of them wich are basicly upgraded supply depot's so to say, so your point still holds.
And if you add the overseer to zerg, also put the observer with protoss, wich puts them at 13 Queen helps against small rushes, but I think it's obvious why nobody actually uses them with their army past the four minute mark. This is why I didn't count them, You see lots of people using Mothership in their army?
|
Terran puts down barracks+factory, now has access to 5 units without tech labs.
Zerg puts 2 buildings down, that cost drones, can now build 2 units.
Would a cool solution be adding banelings to spawning pool along with their tech ( remove baneling nest ), and do something similar with a lair building? Or perhaps give access to a unit when you upgrade to Lair . ( Maybe give infestor access w/ lair and move tech to evo chamber?, and change hive upgrade path into nydus network ).
Would require adjusting building times/costs/etc but it could be funky.
|
A simple unit that has bonus vs armored would be nice. I mean, both terran and toss got so many units with bonus this and that, while Z is pretty much forced to just spam one unit as pretty much none of them have a +bonus. Its just en masse roach & hydra to get units of both armored and light units so you aren't completely obliterated by a single unit.
Change Ultra also, I dont think anyone makes them and Hive tech isn't really persuasive, you get it for broodlord, t3 upgrades and.. thats it. The upgrades for lings is poor, the one for roaches is really nerfed and ultras are getting owned by t1 units of T and are easily kited and making more of them doesnt make sense as they will block each others ass on top of that the lings themselves aren't that great once ppl get to t2/t3.
|
On April 01 2010 22:04 Luckbox wrote:
Terran puts down barracks+factory, now has access to 5 units without tech labs.
Zerg puts 2 buildings down, that cost drones, can now build 2 units.
Without tech labs? Marine, helion and?
Also I could say: zerg puts down ultralisk cavern and can make gazilion ultras instantly, just needs larvae and money, while terran with one port could make only one BC at a time no matter how much money he has. The races just work differently, that's a good thing.
|
Ultras are not as bad as they seem. I've been using them of late. If you wait until 20 minutes into the game when there are 20 tanks, 15 immortals and 75 marauders and 5 collossi all with full upgrades on the field before you get your first unupgraded ultras, yeah they're gonna die pretty fast.
But if you try to get them out a bit earlier, ultras have a lot of hp, so they don't die very easily. You can usually pull them out of combat and take them back to your nat, where your queens will have a bit of extra energy since you don't need to spawn as many larvae.
As for queens. I really wish they'd just take out the creep restriction. Not only does it not make sense, it cripples the unit. I can't think of any queen rush that would have any real chance of success whatsoever in trying to get past a wall. The queen simply is not better than the zerglings you'll get out early, and it is crucial to spawn larvae early to get your economy going, so using your queen offensively is risky at best. They should just remove this restriction, and then people might use queens more often in their pushes.
|
I actually still don't get why people don't use queens as offensive healers. Queen's healing is actually more powerfull than medivac in some cases. Just take a look
Cost: Queens is cheaper (no gas and not even larvae!), supply is the same
Healing potential: at full energy, medivac will heal 600 HP (3HP per 1 energy, max is 200). Queen could heal 500 HP (125 HP per 50 energy, max is 200)
Mobility: Medivac is much more mobile, but Queen's healing has a substantialy bigger range, so you could easily heal your front troops from behind.
The Queen's healing is much much better for high HP units, because she cast the spell (and therefore heal 125 HP) almost instantly. Medivac is better suited for healing low HP units, but it's slow as fuck. 2 Marines will easily shoot a third to death despite being healed.
So...why not accompany your late game army of ultras/broodlords with couple of queens? It's not like these units are lighting fast.
I know the main problem is probably the 50 energy to 125 HP ratio. You usually don't have 50/100/150/200 energy so some of the energy is innevitably wasted because you ended with like 39 energy and can't cast anything.
I would propose to reduce the cost to 25 energy and the healed ammount to 60 HP. Then you can cast the spell more often and more effectively use your energy.
+ Show Spoiler +Please, no more that retarded "but...but I need my queens to spawn larvae!" argument. You could make how may queens you want.
|
It is because they are too slow, that's the only reason. Imagine if a dropship was as slow as a queen and was a ground unit. No one would use it.
I think it is a relic from when the queen started the game without requiring being built at a hatchery. It is an obsolete restriction that should be removed.
|
On April 02 2010 00:27 onmach wrote:
It is because they are too slow, that's the only reason. Imagine if a dropship was as slow as a queen and was a ground unit. No one would use it.
I think it is a relic from when the queen started the game without requiring being built at a hatchery. It is an obsolete restriction that should be removed.
I think quicker queens led to some early game problems, maybe because of that the are so slow? What about speed upgrade at lair then?
I'd love to see queens used more and with bigger diversity. They are often just a spawn-larvae button now :/
|
If you're fighting on creep, then it's not as much of an issue. If you're using a nydus worm, it's also less of an issue. I think eventually we will be seeing queens used offensively, especially with ultras.
|
On April 02 2010 00:12 adelarge wrote:I actually still don't get why people don't use queens as offensive healers. Queen's healing is actually more powerfull than medivac in some cases. Just take a look Cost: Queens is cheaper (no gas and not even larvae!), supply is the same Healing potential: at full energy, medivac will heal 600 HP (3HP per 1 energy, max is 200). Queen could heal 500 HP (125 HP per 50 energy, max is 200) Mobility: Medivac is much more mobile, but Queen's healing has a substantialy bigger range, so you could easily heal your front troops from behind. The Queen's healing is much much better for high HP units, because she cast the spell (and therefore heal 125 HP) almost instantly. Medivac is better suited for healing low HP units, but it's slow as fuck. 2 Marines will easily shoot a third to death despite being healed. So...why not accompany your late game army of ultras/broodlords with couple of queens? It's not like these units are lighting fast. I know the main problem is probably the 50 energy to 125 HP ratio. You usually don't have 50/100/150/200 energy so some of the energy is innevitably wasted because you ended with like 39 energy and can't cast anything. I would propose to reduce the cost to 25 energy and the healed ammount to 60 HP. Then you can cast the spell more often and more effectively use your energy. + Show Spoiler +Please, no more that retarded "but...but I need my queens to spawn larvae!" argument. You could make how may queens you want.
Queens aren't meant to be an offensive unit , anyone who argues against this is just dumb and unless some ultra gosu of Jaedong/Flash level in SC1 starts using them as offensive units effectively in SC2 i will stay by this statement . The heal ability is used only in critical situation to save a hatchery sunken or an other building or queen . I can't imagine someone using queens on the offensive , because they are slow as hell and easy to kill and even if you have the whole map covert in creep or have a nudis network set up by that time the timing window when the queen could have possibly be of any help would be long gone .
The fact is zerg needs an other spellcaster and/or a tactical unit like the lurker badly . Zerg doesn't have a diversety of units which meens zerg doesn't have a diversity of strategy which meens playing zerg ISN'T AS FUN OR INTERESTING TO PLAY AS THE OTHER RACES WHICH IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PROBLEM RIGHT NOW , AND NOT THE BALANCE OF THE GAME .
And arguments like zerg doesn't need knew units they are doing just fine without them are fucking stupid as well . Zerg has lesser units then the other races right now . If you take away for example the DT or the Banshee Protoss and Terran could very well do fine without them , but that is not the point . Just having them there as on option is 31231231 better then not having them at all .
You can't even compare the infestor/corruptor spells with the combined spells of ghost/raven and sentry/HT/mothership .
|
There is minimal infestor use...
I think they should just buff infestors first... then worry about unit diversity. If they start putting in units that do as much as the infestor, it won't make much of a difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
