Unit Description: Fast scout. Has flame attack that damages enemy units in its line of fire.
Obviously, the Hellion unit is the modern counterpart to the Vulture in Starcraft: Broodwar. They are both constructed from the "Factory" building, and both have and upgrade available in the add-on to this facility.
The cost of the unit is similar in the respect that they both only require minerals to produce. Though, the Hellion does require 25 more minerals, it would be easy to argue that this cost is offset by the addition of the Mule (additional mineral income unit) to Terran in Starcraft 2. Both are speedy mechanical units that are designed to allow a player with good Micro to repel early attacks from melee units, allow speedy scouting, harass, and support in the later game.
The most notable difference between this unit and its predecessor is the lack of Spider Mines. The Terran Vulture can spawn 3 Spider mines (with upgrade). Spider Mines are cloaked (burrowed) units that deal splash damage to any ground unit within a short range:
"Think of spider mines as overlords/comsats that get up and rape the shit out of anything they see." -iNcontroL
So what's so bad about the Hellion?
In responses and OP's in this SC2 section of Team Liquid, I have noted that there are a good many who just flat out hate this unit... not only as a replacement to the Vulture, but to even be in the sequel to our beloved BroodWar. Many complaints revolve around the model (either its too plain, or looks too much like a motorbike) or that its some sort of "downgrade" to the technology in Broodwar. The argument usually goes something like this: "Vultures were a type of speed bike that hovered slightly above the ground (I'm trying not to picture Star Wars)... so WHY would there be wheels on the unit in a later version? Why would they downgrade the technology and add wheels... which were literally one of the first inventions in history?!?!?!"
While this argument is indeed hard to refute... I don't intend to speculate about the motives for Terran opting for a cheaper and more dependable form of transportation in their newer unit. I do believe it still boils down to a matter of taste as to whether or not you like the look of the Hellion. I believe there are people, like myself, out there who like the Hellion... but are afraid to speak up for the unit for fear of being flamed (no pun intended) from the hordes who despise the units lack of creativity.
To me, the unit is exciting. Its fast, it allows for a player with good micro to defeat an early rush from some noob with 10 Zealots or 20 Zerglings... and allows for epic late game harass and support that may surpass its predecessor. (Ya... I said it.)
So what's Good about the Hellion?
The hellion serves its purpose. It's out early to help a fast teching player deal with early cheese/ harass. It's CHEAP and allows you to save gas for other units. This is the essence of functionality in this game. If you're good with Hellions and have faith in your micro, you needn't worry about early Zergling pushes (once you're walled in), Zealot pushes or Reaper Harass. Hellions deal excellently with all these instances, and even doubly so with the upgrade (see below).
So what the hell ever happened to Firebats in SC2? I'll tell you what happened. They got on some sweet ass bikes, got an extension to their flame thrower, and learned some sick ass Kung-Fu.
Slammin' !
Have you seen a mass of hellions (with upgrade) rape a group of Zealots? Or Zerglings perhaps? Even in TvT, Hellions allow a Mech leaning player to deal with the hordes of Bio-units supported by Medivacs that seems to be all the rage these days. Their damage is just that sick. With 5 of them, in a row, shooting through lines of melee units, marines, or SCV's... you're going to cause a LOT of damage.
Micro. While no one wants SC2 to be a tedious Micro war (see WCIII), units that benefit from a few seconds of gosu micro here and there are certainly desirable. The Hellion can shoot backwards. That's right bitches, backwards. Your "stop and go" attacks while kiting invaders around your base have never looked so smooth. How about while lurching after enemy Drones? Or Defending Siege tanks from a Zergling surround? The rotating action on the cannon atop the Hellion makes the units movement appear much more natural than that of the Vulture.
The Upgrade:
If you're teching to mass Tanks, Banshee, Vikings or even Battlecruisers, and you want to save that precious gas for these units... I recommend getting the upgrade to deal with the early harass. The Hellion will make short work of everything from Reapers, to Zealots and Zerglings, even Hydralisks. Rather than the Gas-Per-Unit cost of Reapers, Marauders or Siege Tanks (which will need their own upgrade) for early defense, make a few Hellions. The ONLY early rush scenario that I don't recommend these units for is the Roach. It's armored exterior is going to nullify all of the bonuses the Hellion offers.
A Hellion positioned at either end of your wall in, as to sandwich attackers between two flame lances, will be enough to turn away any early Zergling or Zealot push. Many times, an opponent with low APM may even lose a handful of units to this defense. In a TvT, any reapers that jump your wall will be easily destroyed by a few Hellion, which are faster and deal line damage similar to the "Lurker" unit in Broodwar.
And harass? Forget about it. 5 Hellions will kill ALL the SCV's at an undefended base faster or as fast as any upgraded unit in the game. If you catch a miner transfer, or an undefended Expansion... your opponent best not even waste the micro to try to get away:
Ya, you're pretty much fucked...
The Essence of this power comes from the long attack that amounts to a ton of damage across multiple units, and an upgrade that allows a whooping 24 damage to each of them. Even a couple pumps of this sickening attack will turn a clump of enemy units to ashes.
The mechanical nature of the Hellion also lends it as a better support unit to players using Mech based builds. Though the marine is often used in combination with these builds, its not benefiting from upgrades that help both Tanks and Thor's (lol). Furthermore, any player proposing to use Marines in a TvT, or a TvP is going to have to get a multitude of upgrades at the Terran Engineering Bay, further dispersing the effectiveness of resources spent on upgrades. The cost of the Hellion upgrade is on the high end, but its small compared with all the upgrades needed to make Marines viable in large splash damage battles involving Tanks, Colossus and even enemy Hellions. While Marauders are certainly necessary in any Mid-Late game PvT, continue to make Hellions... both to combine with the main army for eliminating Zealots (much like Vultures) and to scout and harass Expansions with. Hellion is a far more effective dump of excess minerals than a Marine.
Late Game Support:
Any player with less than perfect macro will admit that with the Mule addition in Starcraft 2, a Terran player can easily end up with a huge amount of extra minerals. The Mineral only cost of the Hellion makes it an attractive place to dump these extra resources.
In my opinion, the speed of the unit to get to the point of attack or defense, its splash damage attack and its ability to decimate enemy mining units, makes it a far superior choice to either the Marine or even the Reaper. It's obvious weakness is its inability to attack air units, which is the same for its SC1 counterpart.
My thesis is that a player would be best served in early (defense), mid (harass) and late (support) roles with the Hellion units as a sizable portion of his ground army. I propose that a diverse army (which seems to be highly effective in SC2) of Terran units would be stronger if many marines are replaced with Hellions. I have played a good few TvT's that seem to support this theory. While Hellions aren't going to take care of a Void Ray for you, they will be 10X more effective against ground units.
Though the vulture will be missed, I welcome its modern counterpart, the Hellion. Tires and all.
On March 03 2010 16:19 wintergt wrote: The only thing that sucks about Hellions is that they look and sound like racecars. But in the right circumstances (vs workers, lings, zealots,..) they dominate so hard. Good post they need some love
On March 03 2010 17:24 {88}iNcontroL wrote: the hellion has a bad rap because it is here to "replace" the vulture and the vulture is one of the most dynamic and amazingly skillful/rewarding units in SCBW.. impossible act to follow.
On March 03 2010 19:11 stenole wrote: (Non-beta player)--- I think one of the great things about the vulture in SC1 is how it forces the opponent to be immobile with the threat of sneaking into his base or with the invisible mines. Because the Hellion doesn't have mines, I wouldn't say it takes over the role of the vulture even though it's speedy and good against the early unit types. Why compare it to a SC1 unit though as if the Terran metagame can just be threaded down on SC2? I think a much more relevant comparison would either be with the reaper that also has a similar role of harassment or with turrets, marines and bunkers which are the other mineral sinks that don't cost gas.
On March 03 2010 22:35 Archerofaiur wrote: I like the Hellion. Though I'd like it eveen more if it had slight sliding animations. Thanks for posting about this.
On March 03 2010 20:43 Mikilatov wrote: You're totally right though, I seem to always be expanding to get that extra gas, not the minerals. My minerals always tend to pile up while my gas is low, and this generally ends up going into raxxes and marines. I'll have to start throwing in a lot more hellions =)
On March 03 2010 20:59 MorroW wrote: the thing that i hate about helion is that it takes about 0.4 casting time in the actual unit to do its attack and then it it has like 2.5 second cooldown before it can attack again
the splash damage is really small, the firebat in sc1 had alot bigger splash dmg and since it also had stimpack and 1 armor it was much better counter to zergling and zealot than the helion is :/
it looks ugly and its not as fast as an upgraded vult
On March 03 2010 23:14 tancor wrote: crappy design..would not be more disgusting.
How do you not get frustrated when your ~4 hellions die to speedlings because they can't move while shooting and get surrounded? I get very frustrated. I'm all "holy crap you can't even kill the unit you were designed to counter???". They're great for worker harass and useful for scouting/spending extra minerals but they feel extremely weak anywhere else.
Mine seem to move and shoot fine... its just that Speedlings usually seem to be running on a different game speed than my units. Moving WHILE shooting might be considered OP
Excellent post! I love using Hellions too. If you catch a line of Reapers mid way through the map with them...it feels like a victory within your victory.
Good post.... but I still don't like them that much. I liked how vultures didn't immediately stopped when attacking and especially how spider mines functioned in Starcraft.
Now I don't mind that Blizzard scraps the vulture; it's a new game. I just want a better replacement.
I won't lie at all to you guys, equal speed to Speedling would indeed be very very sexy. Those things just look broken sometimes. Of course, you could slow down the Lings but no one is complaining about them ATM.
They ARE complaining about the Hellion though. Thought it would be nice to have a place to talk about their finer points
The only thing that sucks about Hellions is that they look and sound like racecars. But in the right circumstances (vs workers, lings, zealots,..) they dominate so hard. Good post they need some love
I cannot understand the point of this thread. Does a weak "don't fire when moving" flamethrower somehow justify the lack of spider mines? Imo, the idea to merge vultures and firebats was ultimately a good one, the idea to remove mines was not.
Nice post. Its a good thing that Hellions don't count as armored units, considering so many units in SC2 have a bonus to armored or even have a high base damage. Throughout the Terran replays I've watched, they are good for worker harass as well as quick scouting against both Zerg and Protoss....at least until ling speed or stalkers come out.
Problem is, light units are rather sparse up the tech tree, so mid to late game hellions will probably be used exclusively for worker harass....or killing undefended HT's...
It's a good unit, but the design needs some work. Considering its already in beta....I don't expect that too happen but it's not bad.
I'm going to have to agree that it's a matter of taste whether you like the unit or not, personally I hate the look of it. I also hate that you can't move while shooting, which is something I really liked about the vulture (I wonder if they can actually make it move and shoot at the same time but decided not to). Too bad the Vulture is gone (along with spider mines), I hate and love that unit at the same time, I only hate this new unit though...maybe through time I'll come to love it somehow.
On March 03 2010 16:23 BluzMan wrote: I cannot understand the point of this thread. Does a weak "don't fire when moving" flamethrower somehow justify the lack of spider mines? Imo, the idea to merge vultures and firebats was ultimately a good one, the idea to remove mines was not.
Are you suggesting that they give spider mines to this unit too? or to a completely unit? I think they decided to not give it mines is because it has splash damage.
I do believe the Vulture stopped, while only for a millisecond, while shooting. Especially when behind it. Perhaps Blizzard can be convinced to shorten the "shot time" for a Hellion. Good thing its Beta.
On March 03 2010 16:08 cUrsOr wrote: The Essence of this power comes from the long attack that amounts to a ton of damage across multiple units, and an upgrade that allows a whopping 24 damage to each of them. Even a couple pumps of this sickening attack will turn a clump of enemy units to ashes.
The upgrade adds +4 to light units for a total of +10, not +10 for a total of +16 bonus. So that should be 18 damage and not 24.
My beta currently has
Base damage: +8 Bonus to Light: +6 Upgrade: +10 (light only)
On March 03 2010 16:08 cUrsOr wrote: The Essence of this power comes from the long attack that amounts to a ton of damage across multiple units, and an upgrade that allows a whopping 24 damage to each of them. Even a couple pumps of this sickening attack will turn a clump of enemy units to ashes.
The upgrade adds +4 to light units for a total of +10, not +10 for a total of +16 bonus. So that should be 18 damage and not 24.
The description of the upgrade is kinda confusing on this point. But if you actually get the upgrade and look at the damage, it will show 8 + 16 vs. Light. So the +10 is added to the damage bonus, not replacing it.
they can't shoot while moving really the delay before fire is quite noticeable and no spidermines means no pure mech tvp i think they are quite useful mech tvz but tvp i'm still out on.
On March 03 2010 16:08 cUrsOr wrote: I don't intend to speculate about the motives for Terran opting for a cheaper and more dependable form of transportation in their newer unit
Hey now, how can they be cheaper if they cost more? Not to mention if Terran had spent the time developing the vulture instead of the hellion, it'd probably even cheaper and even more badass!
In all seriousness, it will never replace the vulture, or mines, but there's no point in complaining, and we just need to learn to use this unit to its full effectiveness.
I think the lack of good mech to Air units is really what disables the usage of pure mech. Golioth did SO much for mech, with sniping obs, fighting carriers and sniping overlords.
the hellion has a bad rap because it is here to "replace" the vulture and the vulture is one of the most dynamic and amazingly skillful/rewarding units in SCBW.. impossible act to follow.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
Back when SC1 came out, no one knew how to play rts. But there are so many good rts players nowdays that you can't really hope that new micro techniques will be invented.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
so...eventually, when players are more skilled, they will micro SO well that they will change how the unit works!?! well hot damn, brb making zealots fly
I do agree that they need to shorten the time its "paused" while shooting. Even if it means speeding up the flame animation. Its fun, but if its going to be fast, that pause is just tedious. Man, you can micro a Marauder better (in terms of how fast it releases a shot).
If they are in a perpendicular line when they fight lings too, they can do some damage. Problem is, most people encounter lings while moving, and are in a straight line moving forward. If the Hellions are in turn waiting for the lings, in a perpendicular line to the lings movement, they will eat them.
edit: But ya they make a great addition to those players that are still looking to mass hydras.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
so...eventually, when players are more skilled, they will micro SO well that they will change how the unit works!?! well hot damn, brb making zealots fly
I can't tell if your are being sarcastic or not.. but yeah, muta stacking is a perfect example of changing how a unit works.. and could make HT fly in SC1
On March 03 2010 18:24 CharlieMurphy wrote: This one guy went mech versus me zerg, on metalopolis. Mass hellions thors and tanks oh my.
Hellions absolutely rape everything except roaches from early to mid game. Thors smash mutas to bits. Tanks/Marauders obliterate roaches
They also run right past roaches into the Zerg's main if he doesn't block his ramp. :3
I quite like the poor maligned Hellion as well. The unit has some damned personality (unlike the Roach), but the Vulture is, as someone else pointed out, an impossible act to follow.
(Non-beta player)--- I think the unit model looks really good. It fits beautifully into how I picture the terran race in SC. If anything, the vulture was too futuristic visually If you put some gold plating and some blue LEDs on it, it would have passed for a protoss unit.
The fact that this unit has a line shaped AOE has great implications for micro and tactical position for both user and victim. Hopefully it works out that way in practice as well as in theory.
I think one of the great things about the vulture in SC1 is how it forces the opponent to be immobile with the threat of sneaking into his base or with the invisible mines. Because the helion doens't have mines, I wouldn't say it takes over the role of the vulture even though it's speedy and good against the early unit types. Why compare it to a SC1 unit though as if the Terran metagame can just be threaded down on SC2?
I think a much more relevant comparison would either be with the reaper that also has a similar role of harassment or with turrets, marines and bunkers which are the other mineral sinks that don't cost gas.
While I agree the Hellion is underrated, I feel your argument lacks a real "con" section. You simply talk about the aesthetics of it, not what flaws the unit has.
i think the hellion is a great unit but the only thing i dislike about it is how speedling just auto surround it and are faster than it so they die when z gets speedlings it sucks but ofc in masses will still rape them
On March 03 2010 20:09 Paperkat wrote: i think the hellion is a great unit but the only thing i dislike about it is how speedling just auto surround it and are faster than it so they die when z gets speedlings it sucks but ofc in masses will still rape them
Masses, you need like 2 to instagib any speedlings that come near the hellion.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
so...eventually, when players are more skilled, they will micro SO well that they will change how the unit works!?! well hot damn, brb making zealots fly
I can't tell if your are being sarcastic or not.. but yeah, muta stacking is a perfect example of changing how a unit works.. and could make HT fly in SC1
I'm a Terran player with somewhere inbetween 400-500 games, and I TOTALLY don't use the Hellion enough. In fact, I really just started to get into using it. I will start to do so due to your awesome convincing and also in your honor. =)
You're totally right though, I seem to always be expanding to get that extra gas, not the minerals. My minerals always tend to pile up while my gas is low, and this generally ends up going into raxxes and marines. I'll have to start throwing in a lot more hellions =)
Finally my subconscious comes through.. I've always wondered what the thing was that I found weird about the Hellion. It's the flame shooting forward. how are you gonna sit there with this huge flame above you, you get totally blinded..
The Hellion should shoot its flame backwards! That makes also for better gain from good micro, good for hit-and-run on an approaching enemy.. it'd be different to say the least. It'd make sense.
i didn't use the hellion much, than i started to after i realized i failed at reading the description for its upgrade that gives +10 vs. light. so using it as a worker harass is amazing.
i'd say despite how nice the upgrade is, costing 150/150 is a bit much. siege research, which in comparison is much better, only costs 100/100. so lowering it down to at least that much would be nice. other issues are the animation requires the unit to stop briefly, and while you can micro them and not die vs. zealots or zerglings, it can be really irksome to not have smooth movements when attacking.
i've had great success in balancing out my gas usage by getting a lot of hellions in tvp (i absolutely refuse to go bio except to get emp). the damage bonus is great vs. zerg, as lings/banelings/hydras are all light armor. i haven't used it in tvt, except as a way to defend my ramp because firing down it with splash is quite nice for defending.
it may sound weird but it would be nice if they could be put into bunkers, like a longer ranged firebat.
the thing that i hate about helion is that it takes about 0.4 casting time in the actual unit to do its attack and then it it has like 2.5 second cooldown before it can attack again
the splash damage is really small, the firebat in sc1 had alot bigger splash dmg and since it also had stimpack and 1 armor it was much better counter to zergling and zealot than the helion is :/
it looks ugly and its not as fast as an upgraded vult
On March 03 2010 16:17 Umbrella wrote: Good post.... but I still don't like them that much. I liked how vultures didn't immediately stopped when attacking and especially how spider mines functioned in Starcraft.
Now I don't mind that Blizzard scraps the vulture; it's a new game. I just want a better replacement.
They just need some additional utility and they'd be fine (i.e an ability like spider mines). I'd also like if they didn't stop in that jerky way every time they fire.
On March 03 2010 16:19 cUrsOr wrote: I won't lie at all to you guys, equal speed to Speedling would indeed be very very sexy. Those things just look broken sometimes. Of course, you could slow down the Lings but no one is complaining about them ATM.
They ARE complaining about the Hellion though. Thought it would be nice to have a place to talk about their finer points
My primary issue with zerglings is how fast they move on creep, completely nullifying scouting (no micro changes anything, just right click and kill it).
If Hellions could move/shoot better, they might not fear speed zerglings as much... Maybe.
I find you need a numbebr of helions to be able to do any damage... which is fine. But in my experience I only use like 4-5 and they just die. Get like 10+ and they destroy anything light on the ground nicely.
On March 03 2010 19:46 MasterDana wrote: While I agree the Hellion is underrated, I feel your argument lacks a real "con" section. You simply talk about the aesthetics of it, not what flaws the unit has.
I totally figured that would be taken care of for me...
The Hellion is pretty cool, but its inability to blend movement and attacking is unfortunate. To those who think they actually possess such hidden capability waiting to be discovered: the attack animation is simply too long to allow for it.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
You can't compare units from sc1 and sc2 across games, even units that have stayed exactly the same have had their stats tweaked to fit into the balance and flow of the new game! (compare lings vs zealots in sc1 and sc2 for example)
On March 03 2010 20:59 MorroW wrote: the thing that i hate about helion is that it takes about 0.4 casting time in the actual unit to do its attack and then it it has like 2.5 second cooldown before it can attack again
the splash damage is really small, the firebat in sc1 had alot bigger splash dmg and since it also had stimpack and 1 armor it was much better counter to zergling and zealot than the helion is :/
The way their attack works, you need to micro to get as much units in front of you as possible, which is pretty cool, it's the kind of micro we want right? If workers are running away from their mining when harassed by hellions, they'll line up and getting in the right position you can kill like 8 of them in one attack.
On March 03 2010 19:11 stenole wrote: (Non-beta player)--- I think one of the great things about the vulture in SC1 is how it forces the opponent to be immobile with the threat of sneaking into his base or with the invisible mines. Because the helion doens't have mines, I wouldn't say it takes over the role of the vulture even though it's speedy and good against the early unit types. Why compare it to a SC1 unit though as if the Terran metagame can just be threaded down on SC2?
For a non-beta player that's some pretty insightful shit. Good look at one of the real function of Vultures. Having to clear mines with Ovie and Hydras or Obs and Goons does severely limit early-mid game mobility.
Just give them an ability to have zero cool down for like the next 10 seconds. Ability cool down is 30 seconds, but NOT auto-castable, just like stalker's blink.
as a protoss player i'm ecstatic that the vulture was removed (fuckin imba pieces of shit xD), though it will be missed. my biggest problem with the hellion is the unit model, but i'm hoping that a few of the sounds and graphics r just placeholders for the beta or that blizzard will listen to our pleas and revamp it. however, this was something that people complained about since the beginning and blizzard has yet to act... that worries me
Meh, they have their uses. I thought they costed 125 minerals though, was this changed in the patches? I didn't notice if it did. Mostly I hate using up a precious factory slot to make anything not a tank or thor (thors require tech add-on no?). The reactor just isn't that useful for the fact since you can only make 1 unit from it. Atleast with the port you can make medic or viking, both of which can be useful at almost anytime in some way.
The Hellion can shoot backwards. That's right bitches, backwards.
you need to get your ass recruited by this site with your writing skills! Go find something to report on and maybe you'll replace Dr. Helvetecia haha or maybe they'll find you a spot somewhere else.
I totally disagree with the OP. Compared with their counterpart in SC1, hellion is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I still remember my first win on Platinum League, where my opponent did a fast hellion drop and all his 4 hellions died to my 6 marines. Yes, his hellions were not upgraded, so their damage output was not that much; his micro may be not good enough, so hellions were not fully used.etc. But when I saw the scene, I'd say f**k! Four vultures with similar micro ability will kill all my marines with even 0 lost.
I really don't want to compare vultrue with hellion, for hellion is just sh*t if vulture was out there. Vulture together with its spider mines is an important factor that shape Terran in Starcraft 1, placing vulture amongst his arsenal,Terran
- has a distinct way of mirco - has a distinct way to push - has a distinct way of detection - has a distinct way of turtle - has a serial of distinct strategies whose key are vulture micro or spider mines.
And Terran gains - stronger ability of detection - stronger ability on map control. - a more rounded and mobile defensive system. - A tons more strategy choices. - bigger chance to win if you got behind. - bigger chance to survive when facing a much larger invading forces. - bigger chance to survive when facing special tactics like dt rush or reaver drop.
And the most important thing is, that Terran with vulture is much much more fun!
To the whole game of Starcraft, vulture together with its spider mine: - severe punish casually Attack Move, even in late game. - encourage micro no matter you are using vulture or countering them. - encourage more detection no matter you are countering vultures or you are using them. - further distinguish the player's skill level, especially when you are a terran player.
Yes, hellions are good when you have a mass of them, or maybe when you have some fancy micro skill in manipulating them, but hellions adds very little to gameplay aspect. They are just something that counter something, and when something countering them arrive, they become scrap.
Someone said that "you can not compare vulture with hellions, because they are totally different things". but you should remember that, on the tech tree, the position for vulture is now taken up by hellion !
Someone even said that you cannot compare A of SC2 to B of SC1, but you should note that it is Starcraft 2, the successor of the original starcraft, not CnC5, warcraft 4 or something totally new.
I'd admit that I'm way too emotional and My English is as crappy as some firing buggy, but what I say is just something that springs from my heart after 2 years of close follow and a week of beta experience.
I hate the artwork and the fact it fires a beam. Vultures had more personality as well:
- sunglasses, great voiceover - can actually see the guy in the bike - mines and grenade launcher
whereas, hellion:
- looks like a remote controlled 4-wheel drive car with a freaking laser attached to it. Seriously. The unit is boring as fuck. - hellion's role is already compromised by reapers (they have very similar roles -_-)
Blizzard, please tell me what you were thinking when you came up with this one? O_O
the hellion just stupit C&C buggy ..I don't realy understand how do you like this moron buggy... the hellion voiceover sucks , design sucks (the years of 2500 and pizza car... just fuck)
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
Back when SC1 came out, no one knew how to play rts. But there are so many good rts players nowdays that you can't really hope that new micro techniques will be invented.
"No one knew how to play RTS"? Kind of insulting to the early top players of SC coming off of WC2 like Pillars and Tillerman.
And the engine works differently. Just because you've played different RTSs before doesn't mean you have any idea how to optimally do things in a new engine.
On March 03 2010 16:26 TheAntZ wrote: They cant move while shooting, thus they will NEVER be as good as vultures.
Because clearly everyone figured out how to make vultures hit and run the first week of the Starcraft beta.
so...eventually, when players are more skilled, they will micro SO well that they will change how the unit works!?! well hot damn, brb making zealots fly
It's not an issue of skill. Its an issue of not having spent enough time with the engine to know how to abuse it (particularly when people making these bold claims about what the Hellion is and isn't capable of aren't even in beta).
It took years for people to figure out the subtle differences between Patrol, Attack-Move, and Hold Position. The same commands existed in Warcraft 2, but that doesn't mean they function the same way in terms of their subtleties. Yes, people will probably figure it out faster in Starcraft 2, but that means in weeks or months, not days. And until you understand that, you can't really say what a unit is and isn't capable of. Certainly you can't vulture micro effectively if the only command you're using is attack-move.
On March 04 2010 03:02 skypacer wrote: I hate hellions!
I totally disagree with the OP. Compared with their counterpart in SC1, hellion is the most f**cking disappointing unit of starcraft 2.
I really don't want to compare vultrue with hellion,
You seem to be contradicting yourself here.
The Hellion has NO counterpart in sc. It's a new unit. It doesn't "replace" anything. It doesn't even fulfill the same role as a vulture. One might argue that the role of the vulture has no place in sc2 with terran's new mobility. So don't compare the hellion to the vulture, it just doesn't make sense. It's a new unit, with new uses. The vulture is gone. It hasn't been replaced by the hellion, its just gone. The hellion is a new unit, just like the maurader, just like the thor, etc. We really just need to collectively let it go.
Hellion is useless to get early game because anybody going against a terran are gonna be deathly scared of reapers and other harass, so they go fast stalker/marauder/roach anyways. Hellions don't kill any of those units very well. If they only kill marines/zerglings/zealots, then im not gonna get them until very late in the game...that is if the game is still on the ground
Well i cant lie, im in love...with the hellion. Interesting you saw the potential in this unit one year ago. Its great for mineral dumping, map control, harass, or just eating tank fire. Great unit.
hellions definitely should be used more in TvP as well, since some protoss like to go heavy zealots to counter the common mass marauder army. watch thorzain's play in the TL attack and you will see the future of TvP (marauder, lots of ghost, some blue flame hellion, viking)
On August 01 2011 09:50 cursor wrote: Necro my thread from Beta with respect to the MLG events.
May the mods have mercy on my soul.
Nice foresight from you sir. And a well-written OP, not sure if you've updated it with hellion changes since the beta (like blue flame upgrade being Blue!) It's so weird seeing TvTs with few to none marines on one or both sides.
Seriously though, TvT has devolved into luck timing on blue flame hellion drops, or who stacks their scv's when they pull them from the line...so annoying to watch imo.
Hellion... Hmmm. It shoots in a straight line... for AoE damage... with bonus damage to light (After an upgrade)
I GET IT NOW, It's the lurker! Look guys, I found the lurker!
In all seriousness, I love the Hellion and I love how it's revolutionizing TvT and TvZ. It's so much more fun to watch Hellions killing everything than it was to watch Marines.
On March 03 2010 16:23 BluzMan wrote: I cannot understand the point of this thread. Does a weak "don't fire when moving" flamethrower somehow justify the lack of spider mines? Imo, the idea to merge vultures and firebats was ultimately a good one, the idea to remove mines was not.
The Hellion's AI is pathetic... it has 1 range more than a reaper, does more damage than a reaper, has more health than a reaper, and is faster than a reaper... yet in even a progamer's hands the hellion loses straight up to the reaper... because it's firing AI is so slow... not to mention that blizzard reduced the AI firing range by .5 beacuse otherwise it wouldn't auto splash units BEHIND the unit the Hellion was attacking... The Hellion is great, but it could be SO MUCH MORE! with just a simple AI upgrade...
I'm refraining from doing an Edit to keep the OP legit. I just checked the stats/upgrades in game and they are still correct from even that long ago, and I'm not going to make an edit just for graphics to attempt to maintain it's humor.
Thanks a lot for the comments guys! Even more funny since the stats/upgrades have remained unchanged and it's just the utility in game, especially in TvT that has evolved. If anyone remembers Beta, this was pretty much written in the phase when Reapers were ruling all in TvT... and of course reapers have since been changed.
Great unit, needs to be used more in TvP i keep hearin day9 goes it takes 50 shots for a marine to kill a zelot with +1 armour and guardian shield. How many shots for a blue flame hellion? 5 .
pointing it out here, if you assume that gas is worth 4 times as much as minerals, Hellions are more cost effective against virtually everything in the game (obvious exceptions being thors, tanks, ultras, archons, etc). If you can line up the shots right, they'll beat roaches, stalkers, you name it, cost for cost.
the only problem that i have with the hellion is not that it looks like a motorbike or sounds like one, but that a Terran cant control a map because of the lack of the spider mine which makes going mech much harder
On August 01 2011 11:23 Soulish wrote: pointing it out here, if you assume that gas is worth 4 times as much as minerals, Hellions are more cost effective against virtually everything in the game (obvious exceptions being thors, tanks, ultras, archons, etc). If you can line up the shots right, they'll beat roaches, stalkers, you name it, cost for cost.
But why would you assume that? Also, if you simply scale that x4 factor, you can use that statement for any unit comparison where the mineral/gas ratio is not equal to decide that each unit is always cost effective against any different one it can hit.
Hellion has been my most hated unit for a long time, looks like now after MLG maybe more than 0.0001% of Terrans will know how to actually use them beyond the suicide at the beginning where you can just auto win to mistakes, although that kills me a lot too.
On August 01 2011 11:05 cursor wrote: I'm refraining from doing an Edit to keep the OP legit. I just checked the stats/upgrades in game and they are still correct from even that long ago, and I'm not going to make an edit just for graphics to attempt to maintain it's humor.
Thanks a lot for the comments guys! Even more funny since the stats/upgrades have remained unchanged and it's just the utility in game, especially in TvT that has evolved. If anyone remembers Beta, this was pretty much written in the phase when Reapers were ruling all in TvT... and of course reapers have since been changed.
On March 03 2010 16:11 Crunchums wrote: How do you not get frustrated when your ~4 hellions die to speedlings because they can't move while shooting and get surrounded? I get very frustrated. I'm all "holy crap you can't even kill the unit you were designed to counter???". They're great for worker harass and useful for scouting/spending extra minerals but they feel extremely weak anywhere else.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is the entitled mentality SC2 has left us with, I feel. With units like Colossi, which kill everything, I'm sure a unit that requires some attention is going to be received with some dismay. However, after knowing how much attention EVERYTHING required in BW, it's amazing to know that we found a unit that requires at least some more attention.
Let the battle between marines and hellions rage on :D
On March 03 2010 16:11 Crunchums wrote: How do you not get frustrated when your ~4 hellions die to speedlings because they can't move while shooting and get surrounded? I get very frustrated. I'm all "holy crap you can't even kill the unit you were designed to counter???". They're great for worker harass and useful for scouting/spending extra minerals but they feel extremely weak anywhere else.
Man, the whole point is to be able to win with micro. If you don't micro, you'll lose. If you micro well (and abuse chokes) you can survive most of the time.
On March 03 2010 16:11 Crunchums wrote: How do you not get frustrated when your ~4 hellions die to speedlings because they can't move while shooting and get surrounded? I get very frustrated. I'm all "holy crap you can't even kill the unit you were designed to counter???". They're great for worker harass and useful for scouting/spending extra minerals but they feel extremely weak anywhere else.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is the entitled mentality SC2 has left us with, I feel. With units like Colossi, which kill everything, I'm sure a unit that requires some attention is going to be received with some dismay. However, after knowing how much attention EVERYTHING required in BW, it's amazing to know that we found a unit that requires at least some more attention.
Let the battle between marines and hellions rage on :D
On March 03 2010 16:11 Crunchums wrote: How do you not get frustrated when your ~4 hellions die to speedlings because they can't move while shooting and get surrounded? I get very frustrated. I'm all "holy crap you can't even kill the unit you were designed to counter???". They're great for worker harass and useful for scouting/spending extra minerals but they feel extremely weak anywhere else.
Man, the whole point is to be able to win with micro. If you don't micro, you'll lose. If you micro well (and abuse chokes) you can survive most of the time.
I also love when people post in old threads, and new people come in and don't look at the post times of what they're responding to.
EPT![[image loading]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3297/3276248338_651b9124ff_o.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.eslaultima.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Hellion.jpg)
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