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Interesting Discovery (Terran)

Forum Index > SC2 General
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1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-01 00:29:39
February 27 2010 21:55 GMT
#1
Well, I was messing about in sandbox mode today and I discovered something interesting about siege tanks

They refuse to overkill.

If you target an scv with 12 sieged tanks, only 1 will fire and kill the scv.
If you target a CC with 12 sieged tanks, they will all fire on the first volley, and on the second volley only enough will fire to finish the CC off.

I tested with many units, and it appears the group of tanks calculates how many will be required to kill the target in the smallest number of volleys, and only those tanks engage.

This is pretty cool, and I found that all units with instant hit attacks do this.(tanks,ghosts,rines,the flying think that's hotkey is v)

The new firing calculation shouldn't effect rines or the V things much, due to their high rate of fire (their firing gets out of sync anyway) but just by itself it should make siege tanks much more powerful in masses. The old tactic of mixing in workers and such as cannon fodder will be far less effective, as each one will only absorb 1 tank hit instead of the several they would in sc1.

SOOOOO, I was like, "how can I, take advantage of this?"
Well, I found a new and handy trick. It turn out if you hold the shift key while queuing up a chain of attacks, the tanks will intelligently distribute their fire among them very fast. The game will check for how many tanks it needs to kill the first target, allocate this number, then move to the next queued target nearly instantly, allocate enough for that, then on to the next target...etc.

The result is that instead of unleashing 10 tanks shots on the first marine, cooldown, 10 tank shots on the second marine, cooldown...etc..
The tanks will instead allocate one tank for each shift clicked marine, and rape all 10 of them all in about 1 second.

Try it!

Siege 4-10 tanks up in a pile, within their range build a barracks and position 6 rines far enough apart that they wont be splashed, shift queue an attack chain starting with the rax and then going through each marine,

Result: Tanks fire a few volleys to kill the rax, then quickly gun down the marines like a machine gun with one shot for each .
The exact same thing can be done with ghosts (replacing the tanks, not the rines lol)

I don't think any other races have instant hit attacks,maybe immortals? But I think this is going to be most effective by far with tanks due to their long cooldown and huge damage.

moral, shift key is imba
jesus that was long

WHY THE QUEUING?

+ Show Spoiler +
OK guys, let me explain

THE REASON FOR THE SHIFT-QUEUING

IF, you are being attacked and you DO NOT target your tanks at all
THEN
Tanks will semi-randomly attack units coming into their range BUT never overkill, if 10 units that take 2 shots each to kill are attacking 10 tanks.
THE RESULT: Possible outcomes are the tanks target all ten and bring them all to 50% health (worst possible), they double target 5 enemies and kill 5 (best possible), or any semi-random combination in between these examples.

IF, you are being attacked and you NON-QUEUE target your tanks as fast as you can
THEN
Tanks will double target each unit you manually click and kill it.Obviously you will target five enemies and kill these five. HOWEVER, you cannot click nearly as fast as the computer can process targets, you will end up spamming right click moving from unit to unit for the entire battle, and if you are not clicking on the next unit you want killed by the time the first target is killed, the tanks will fire randomly.
THE RESULT: You will end up killing 5 units guaranteed, BUT much slower than the computer can process targets, easy to mess up, and difficult. Try this, it really doesn't work well unless you have the mouse accuracy of Legolas.

IF, you are being attacked and you QUEUE target your tanks as fast as you can.
THEN
The tanks will cycle through your queued targets MUCH faster without any possibility of mistake. In order to get a head start on the tanks firing, it is easier to start on a target that will take at least a whole volley to kill (say, a colossus), then queue up a chain of units, this will allow you to get well ahead of the tanks during the cool down.
RESULT: With the first volley 5 units are killed machine gun style (as fast as the tanks can retarget themselves), and 5 units are already queued up to be instantly killed on the second volley. MUCH better.

SUMMARY
1. With NO targeting tanks will not waste shots, and they will be very fast, but they will pick targets poorly.
2. With STANDARD right-click targeting tanks may waste shots based on human error, target slowly, but will pick targets correctly. Like I said, this really doesn't work,it's just frantic spamming due to the unpredictable cooldowns of large tank groups. Exactly like target firing tanks in Sc1, it was only done at the start of battle or to kill super high value units. Compare this to the efficiency of...
3. With SHIFT-QUEUED targeting tanks will never waste a shot, will switch targets instantly, and pick targets perfectly. raep


Video: Thanks JoshSuth! Here is the basic idea in demo.
Keep in mind that with these 7 tanks he could have killed 4 more marines in the second marine volley
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK9nGsLkTCo&feature=player_embedded

In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Urth
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States1256 Posts
February 27 2010 21:57 GMT
#2
awesome find!
BY.HERO FIGHTING!!!!
LordWeird
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3411 Posts
February 27 2010 21:57 GMT
#3
Haha oh wow that's pretty nice.
Chains none
uiotui
Profile Joined February 2010
United States54 Posts
February 27 2010 21:59 GMT
#4
I would love to see a video of this on youtube or something :D
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9593 Posts
February 27 2010 22:00 GMT
#5
Incredible find ! GJ
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/user/LathamTK/builds/#view=CrqmP6
xlep
Profile Joined December 2009
Germany274 Posts
February 27 2010 22:02 GMT
#6
awesome feature
skill is scissors beating rock
RiGun
Profile Joined February 2010
Argentina155 Posts
February 27 2010 22:02 GMT
#7
It's the same as the snipe cast for the Ghost, you can shift+r with 3 ghosts and kill a pack of mutalisks in a second and a half.
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
February 27 2010 22:02 GMT
#8
Woah that's neat. Unfortunately with the decreased usage of Siege Tanks in SC2 (for now), we won't get to see this really in action.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
February 27 2010 22:03 GMT
#9
I knew tanks had a secret they were holding. Lawls at people saying mech is impossible in sc2.

More 2 fac openings v P and T maybe?
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
February 27 2010 22:04 GMT
#10
you are pushing me closer to playing terran in sc2 (the more i see and learn the more i like sc2 terran ^^, still a fan of Protoss though)
Jazriel
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada404 Posts
February 27 2010 22:05 GMT
#11
People only noticed this now?

Hopefully TD map makers get on this bandwagon with the appropriate map theory.
#1 LoL player
getSome[703]
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States753 Posts
February 27 2010 22:05 GMT
#12
Does this work for units of other races as well? I know you don't mention it but I assume it should. Great find!
Running Log! http://www.runningahead.com/logs/5081b4d7a4a94c5e8fa20b01e668dfb6/calendar
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-27 22:07:49
February 27 2010 22:05 GMT
#13
As a Terran player, and having used tanks a lot, due to the mobility of the races (Chargelots + Blink + Zerglings moving at light speed, etc.), tanks have become support. In TvT though tanks see a lot more use, and it really becomes like TvT in SC1, if no one goes 2 Starport Banshee (Scan takes care of this).

Tanks are no where near as strong as they were in BW. If you go heavy Tank you will be hurting big time on gas, and won't have enough for Ghosts/Ravens/etc.

Thanks for the find though! Against 'Toss I find tanks suck due to Immortal (Ghost cost is pretty prohibitive and bio seems to be a lot better). Against Zerg, they are important, but as support. If you get too many roaches will own them mid-game when they get burrow+movement (You will run out of scans), and zerglings are ridiculously fast ;/

Also, against zerglings you end up killing most of your marines with splash. So, I end up using only tanks against Zerg's who go heavy Hydra/Roach/Ultra.

I will say this....tanks are awesome to protect early FE on the high ground due to how the new mechanic works. Overall I look at the Tank like the Colossus/Reaver as support units.

In your games how have your tanks fared?
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
February 27 2010 22:08 GMT
#14
On February 28 2010 07:02 RiGun wrote:
It's the same as the snipe cast for the Ghost, you can shift+r with 3 ghosts and kill a pack of mutalisks in a second and a half.


not actually the same mechanic, the snipe queue is taking advantage of smartcast and skipping the retarget phase of the ability, while this trick is taking advantage of the fact that the game calculates damage to avoid overkill.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Jazriel
Profile Joined April 2008
Canada404 Posts
February 27 2010 22:09 GMT
#15
On February 28 2010 07:05 Rothbardian wrote:I will say this....tanks are awesome to protect early FE on the high ground due to how the new mechanic works.


Bingo. Finally someone's doing it right. As for the TvP match-up, you say Tanks aren't good vs Immortals but that's like saying Paper isn't good against Scissors. Immortals are designed to directly counter tank masses. You say Bio is better, but depending on how you build bio it can be mineral heavy or even. I would say you should try some medivac strats going marines and tanks. Medivac's heal and drop tanks, seems like an extremely solid strategy. With the new emphasis on cliffs and the fact that Colossi can't hit air, it just seems like 2 + 2 = 4 to me.
#1 LoL player
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
February 27 2010 22:10 GMT
#16
On February 28 2010 07:05 getSome[703] wrote:
Does this work for units of other races as well? I know you don't mention it but I assume it should. Great find!


last paragraphs above:

I don't think any other races have instant hit attacks,maybe immortals? But I think this is going to be most effective by far with tanks due to their long cooldown and huge damage.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Rothbardian
Profile Joined January 2010
United States497 Posts
February 27 2010 22:17 GMT
#17
On February 28 2010 07:09 Jazriel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 28 2010 07:05 Rothbardian wrote:I will say this....tanks are awesome to protect early FE on the high ground due to how the new mechanic works.


Bingo. Finally someone's doing it right. As for the TvP match-up, you say Tanks aren't good vs Immortals but that's like saying Paper isn't good against Scissors. Immortals are designed to directly counter tank masses. You say Bio is better, but depending on how you build bio it can be mineral heavy or even. I would say you should try some medivac strats going marines and tanks. Medivac's heal and drop tanks, seems like an extremely solid strategy. With the new emphasis on cliffs and the fact that Colossi can't hit air, it just seems like 2 + 2 = 4 to me.


It's not even that, but tanks get taken out by blink and chargelots...since they are so gas heavy you won't have much support, and the little support you do have will be killed by your splash. One siege tank shot obliterates marines, and chargelots are on your MM in a sec. It's hard to support 2-3 Facs early before Toss gets up immortals/Colossus, and if you go heavy tank, Colossus will rape you.

You need that gas for Medivacs/Vikings and Ghosts. Gas comes much slower in SCII than in SCI.

Anyways, take that as you will from 55-31 Plat player. I actually find my Terran matchups the hardest since I have no fucking clue what I should do. Sometimes I 2 Fac if I don't see the opponent is going Banshee. Then it turns into SCI with mass siege tank lines and drops...which isn't exactly my strong point (Siege Lines) since I'm an Age/RA95 player :p

Once the game gets to that point drops are nullified by Vikings and Thors and Turrets which are a lot better in SCII than in SCI. What I've found if you can't kill off the Terran early/mid game it's going to be a long ass game 45Min-1Hr and end up in BC battles.

I think I might try some sneaky ghost nuke play and hellion harass....
"A tax-supported, compulsory educational system is the complete model of the totalitarian state." - Isabel Paterson <3
z]Benny
Profile Joined April 2006
Romania253 Posts
February 27 2010 22:18 GMT
#18
Great job contributing, even with such limited resources!
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
February 27 2010 22:18 GMT
#19
I would worry about things like this "dumbing" down the game a lot more than auto-mine or MBS
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
February 27 2010 22:19 GMT
#20
oo that's useful
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