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So Terran CC's can be upgraded to Orbital Command Centers after you build a barracks. It costs 150 minerals and 50 seconds of not producing SCVs. Your OC has 3 abilities and starts with 50 energy. All 3 abilities cost 50 energy.
First Ability - Calldown: MULE. This little guy is a very efficient SCV and lasts for 90 seconds. In that time, he makes 8 trips carrying 30 minerals each time. He basically gives you 240 minerals.
Second Ability - Calldown: Supplies. This ability targets a Supply Depot and permanently increases your supply count by 8.
Third Ability - Scanner Sweep. This is your traditional ComSat, revealing an area for 12 seconds and detecting.
So far, it seems like Calldown: MULE is hugely important for Terran to keep up with Protoss in the production game. I'll frequently see Terran have fewer harvesters then Protoss but have equivalent Income due to these guys. They seem to make up for the number of SCVs that inevitably wind up running around building, repairing, etc.
What I'm finding interesting is that for scouting purposes, if you can get the information you need for cheaper than 240 minerals (one SCV is 50, a Hellion is 100, etc), then you're often better off using the MULE then Scanner Sweeping. Of course, if any area is blocked off to you or you need detection, you need a Sweep.
I can't really think of any time where the Calldown Supplies would be relevant, unless you just lost several supply depots to a building raid of some sort and you're now over supply cap, and you need to quickly begin remaking units. That's very very specific. The net value of that is 100 minerals and some SCV time (which also has a 'mineral cost' associated with it, probably 20 or 25 that he didn't get to mine in the time that he was building/running around).
I personally love the idea of the MULE for a resource advantage while relying on other means to scout, like aggressive or crafty play. Has anyone found any practical uses for the supply depot buff at this point?
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Haha you beat me by 2 minutes making a thread about this, I'm assuming mine will get locked so I'll move my post in here:
So I have been doing some math on the MULE, it spends around 4.5 seconds mining 30 minerals and it can make a run to the CC and back again in about the same time, this is about 8-10 seconds depending on the distance to the closest mineral patch. This means that with 50 energy from the OC you'll get between ~250-300 minerals in return over 90 seconds.
The problem is that this is just too good for Terrans to use energy on anything else. One scan will cost you 250-300 minerals each time. This tradeoff is far too great at the betas current stage, Dark Templars can force scans and retreat and without even dealing damage they will have struck a blow to the Terran economy.
Compared to the Zerg Queen and the Protoss Proton Charge (not 100% sure about the name), what can be done to balance this to be equally powerful? Is the Mule simply too good and does it need a nerf? If not, what kind of change would you like to see?
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Maybe it's closer to 250-300, but I've counted the number of trips they make and typically it's 8. Maybe putting it on a closer patch can get you to 9?
I also don't necessarily think it means that DT harass forces Terrans to scan instead of MULE. I think you could position a turret at your choke and not worry about the DT harass at your base, and that's still 'cheaper' than a scan by comparison.
Being offensive would be another matter, though. You could also save on to the energy, scout that they aren't going DTs and then spend it on your MULE.
Another good practice may be to hold on to energy until you have 100 before doing a Calldown: MULE, so you keep a reserve of 50 for an emergency Scan just in case, but I think you may give up too much of an advantage getting to that point.
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The reason there are multiple abilities seems to be to make the player make a decision. The charge for protoss can be used on any building, so do you value production time for units or workers or upgrades etc? (depends on the time of the game). Zerg need to choose what they use their extra larvae for. I think both of you make excellent points that it doesn't seem to be a hard decision for terrans. They either need to buff the other two to make them more valuable at certain points of the game, or nerf the MULE. Maybe changing the extra supply spell into a spell that transforms a supply depot into a bunker like structure (extra armor or turret or something) in addition to its normal function. In a clutch situation, you may consider that more valuable than 240 minerals over 90 seconds, i.e. when zealots + stalkers are destroying your front door.
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You guys are thinking about it wrong. You're seeing the MULE as a tool to put yourselves -even- with your enemies.
The MULE is simply part of a swiss-army-knife that puts you -ahead- of your enemies. I'd like to see another race that can simply look into the enemy base, see tech buildings, and start building the appropriate counter. I'd like to see another race that can modify early-game resources to squeeze out more troops without the need for additional (read: expensive) infrastructure.
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England2649 Posts
I hate to correct you all, but seeing as I've had to time this for various reasons, I'd like to point out that on Faster (the default play speed), The MULE is alive for 65 seconds.
Just trying to subtlely make people aware of this.
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On February 23 2010 11:40 Jazriel wrote: You guys are thinking about it wrong. You're seeing the MULE as a tool to put yourselves -even- with your enemies.
The MULE is simply part of a swiss-army-knife that puts you -ahead- of your enemies. I'd like to see another race that can simply look into the enemy base, see tech buildings, and start building the appropriate counter. I'd like to see another race that can modify early-game resources to squeeze out more troops without the need for additional (read: expensive) infrastructure.
Another race that can simply look into the enemy base: Protoss How: Observers
Another race that can modify early-game resources to squeeze out more troops without the need for additional (read: expensive) infrastructure: Zerg How: Queen
The point made here is that MULE is a far superior choice to the others.
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how long does it take to generate 50 energy? because while more resources is always nice, a half minute period in bw can be a huge timing window for rushes/tech
as people start to optimize bo's and tech strategies, an opponent may be able to tech during the between the first and second 50 energy charge. can any zerg/protoss players check what they are usually doing when a terran spends first energy on mule? it would be interesting if that's the same time when tech options open up.
i haven't played or mathcrafted anything yet, but an example would be that 1st scan may see a baneling nest if used, which will allow terran to properly put up a defense.
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On February 23 2010 11:51 Noah wrote:
Another race that can simply look into the enemy base: Protoss How: Observers
pretty sure ob = late tech detectors, while scan comes up way faster in most of the BO's people are using. neither of the other 2 races have an option to see terran tech when comsat is up and will definitely see zerg tech
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On February 23 2010 12:00 Lozzo.cu wrote: how long does it take to generate 50 energy? because while more resources is always nice, a half minute period in bw can be a huge timing window for rushes/tech
as people start to optimize bo's and tech strategies, an opponent may be able to tech during the between the first and second 50 energy charge. can any zerg/protoss players check what they are usually doing when a terran spends first energy on mule? it would be interesting if that's the same time when tech options open up.
i haven't played or mathcrafted anything yet, but an example would be that 1st scan may see a baneling nest if used, which will allow terran to properly put up a defense.
its around 1 energy every 2 game seconds from watching replays on faster
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On February 23 2010 11:50 Flicky wrote: I hate to correct you all, but seeing as I've had to time this for various reasons, I'd like to point out that on Faster (the default play speed), The MULE is alive for 65 seconds.
Just trying to subtlely make people aware of this. It's not really a big issue. He makes 8 trips while he's alive if he's going to a regular distance mineral patch, which is equivalent to 240 minerals.
The big point I'm trying to make is that the MULE can be a huge economic weapon for Terran if we can offset the detection/scouting issue.
If we can get all the info we need for cheaper then 240 minerals, and detection isn't an issue, it's a great thing to do.
I think throwing up a turret at your choke can offset a lot of the early game harassment issues unless you let a toss warp a DT in uphill or something.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2010 11:40 Jazriel wrote: I'd like to see another race that can modify early-game resources to squeeze out more troops without the need for additional (read: expensive) infrastructure. Each supply depot you upgrade is one MULE you can't get, making it's effective cost 240 minerals. That's pretty expensive. In comparison, building a new depot is cheap.
The only time you might want to up supply depots is if you're constrained by time, not resources.
As an opponent's army grows, and tech options become more dangerous, the value of a scanner sweep grows, because it becomes less likely that you ca scout them with 240 minerals, especially in a timely manner (the fact that sweep is immediate and unstoppable is worth a lot--even if you could sneak a unit into the opponent's base, they could block you long enough still). It's probably not worth your first MULE, but I'm pretty sure it reaches the effective cost of a MULE just fine. The supply depot upgrade definitely needs either some fixing, or a complete redo. The times in which it's worth its cost right now are just too narrow.
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As long as you call the mule down directly on a mineral patch, he'll get you 270 minerals. They also mine 42 from the yellow minerals.
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Ahh, very cool. Good to know, thanks Shadow.
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United States4126 Posts
What are the limitations to the mule? Does it have to be within your range of vision or can it be casted into fog of war? Can you manually control it?
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You can control it, but you can only drop it in your vision, and it can't mine gas. It can repair things.
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One change. Keep everything Scanner Sweep and Calldown Supply the same for energy tension with each other.
MULE -Permanent unit produced at CC but can be called down anywhere. -Cost 75 Min 25 Gas 1 Supply. -Mines 3X as fast as SCV and does not need to "drop off" minerals to CC. Mined minerals automatically deposited in your mineral bank.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
I dont really know how much of an issue this really is since every game I've played with terran I've always ended up with tons of minerals and barely any gas. I suspect it gets to a point where calling down a mule is just adding minerals you can't spend on gas units (hence probably don't feel like spending).
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I think it should just launch whatever amount of scvs are in the cc. That'll be useful. maybe after getting the starport or something.
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One thing to keep in mind is that if you use a MULE, you will still need to spend 100 minerals on a supply depot, so you ought to subtract 100 from the minerals it gains you when compared alongside the Supply ability. Maybe 140-200 net minerals per casting cycle, assuming you make only one depot in that cycle.
Also keep in mind that a MULE will help you mine more quickly, but it does not generate resources that did not already exist on the map. It simply saves you time.
Calling down supplies saves you 100 minerals, effectively deepening your mineral patches by another 100 minerals you can mine in the long run. If you use the call down supplies ability at least ten times in a game, you've saved yourself nearly one mineral patch that would have been spent soley on supply depots.
So when people say that the MULE is free money, it's not. Calling down supplies is free money, the MULE just gives a boost to your economy but mines you out more quickly. If not as effective as MULE, calling down supplies is at least more efficient.
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I know I'd much rather have the macro mechanics and scouting abilities of the other two races compared to Terran
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On February 23 2010 14:47 mmp wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that if you use a MULE, you will still need to spend 100 minerals on a supply depot, so you ought to subtract 100 from the minerals it gains you when compared alongside the Supply ability. Maybe 140-200 net minerals per casting cycle, assuming you make only one depot in that cycle.
Also keep in mind that a MULE will help you mine more quickly, but it does not generate resources that did not already exist on the map. It simply saves you time.
Calling down supplies saves you 100 minerals, effectively deepening your mineral patches by another 100 minerals you can mine in the long run. If you use the call down supplies ability at least ten times in a game, you've saved yourself nearly one mineral patch that would have been spent soley on supply depots.
So when people say that the MULE is free money, it's not. Calling down supplies is free money, the MULE just gives a boost to your economy but mines you out more quickly.
You make a good point with the "deepening" of mineral patches using calldown supply, but I'm not sure what you mean with your first paragraph. What does calling down a mule have to do with needing to spend an EXTRA 100 minerals?
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On February 23 2010 14:53 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 14:47 mmp wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that if you use a MULE, you will still need to spend 100 minerals on a supply depot, so you ought to subtract 100 from the minerals it gains you when compared alongside the Supply ability. Maybe 140-200 net minerals per casting cycle, assuming you make only one depot in that cycle.
Also keep in mind that a MULE will help you mine more quickly, but it does not generate resources that did not already exist on the map. It simply saves you time.
Calling down supplies saves you 100 minerals, effectively deepening your mineral patches by another 100 minerals you can mine in the long run. If you use the call down supplies ability at least ten times in a game, you've saved yourself nearly one mineral patch that would have been spent soley on supply depots.
So when people say that the MULE is free money, it's not. Calling down supplies is free money, the MULE just gives a boost to your economy but mines you out more quickly. You make a good point with the "deepening" of mineral patches using calldown supply, but I'm not sure what you mean with your first paragraph. What does calling down a mule have to do with needing to spend an EXTRA 100 minerals?
If you place the two choices side by side, choosing to MULE will get you some 240-300 minerals, but you will still need to spend 100 on a supply depot on account of natural population growth. If you choose to calldown supplies you remain neutral (gain nothing, but no depot needed), so your money can go to other things.
If you throw comsat into the comparison also, you need to spend 100 minerals on that depot.
Example: Let's say you choose to use the calldown supply, and use the 100 saved minerals to build an extra hellion. It can fulfill the role of comsat (to some degree) by scouting, and potentially gain some map control or harassment potential.
Look at it this way: Supply depots are a tax on your income. If you don't pay the 100mineral tax, your population is stunted. Calling down supplies relieves you of this tax, the MULE does not.
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On February 23 2010 12:33 TheYango wrote:
Each supply depot you upgrade is one MULE you can't get, making it's effective cost 240 minerals. That's pretty expensive. In comparison, building a new depot is cheap.
The only time you might want to up supply depots is if you're constrained by time, not resources.
As an opponent's army grows, and tech options become more dangerous, the value of a scanner sweep grows, because it becomes less likely that you ca scout them with 240 minerals, especially in a timely manner (the fact that sweep is immediate and unstoppable is worth a lot--even if you could sneak a unit into the opponent's base, they could block you long enough still). It's probably not worth your first MULE, but I'm pretty sure it reaches the effective cost of a MULE just fine. The supply depot upgrade definitely needs either some fixing, or a complete redo. The times in which it's worth its cost right now are just too narrow.
thats actually the exact opposite from what I'd argue. As build orders and tech rushes are refined and modified, early game scouting will be denied harder, and early game attack windows will be created. the first few energy charges will be most crucial, especially with zerg banelings and protoss warp in's
as game progresses, air units, ground harass, and multiple CCs will actually make scout easier. For example, while it was easy in sc bw to scan for expos, you are now better off sending a unit over (like pros use a vulture while noobs are lazy).
yes, tech options open up as the army expands, but most players place tech very well if they are trying to suprise you anyway. and again, as build orders, army counters are refined, soon you will "know" when protoss is "adding arbiters" or "switching to carriers" like most real time strategies now.
i wouldnt be suprised if a tvz build order will now include "20 scan" or "20 mule" when people are making bo's by the single mineral/gas.
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and about mule vs. supply:
im pretty sure, from the point of view of designing games for all variety players, the supply adding feature will be a key to differentiate good and amazing players.
supply block happens all the time when you are multitasking, and pros dont have it happen often because, well, they are pros. they will learn to save time and mineral by practicing and thinking ahead. but what happens to your average, saturday-night gamer?
he sits down with his buddy and plays a team game, fooling around with low apm while chatting. he gets supply blocked, and instead of waiting or build factories with the extra money, he uses supply addition and he chats "lol i can add supply im so imba"
dont forget that a game has to be created where a pro has an opportunity to excel, and this simply will be apart of his tool. so yea, useless for TL gamers, but superbly useful for average players!
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Calling Supply is more long-term oriented, while Calling MULE is definitely short-term oriented.
Calling MULE only increases the speed at which you obtain the minerals you would eventually obtain in the first place. If you don't make efficient use of the "early" minerals, you've essentially wasted 50 energy and 100 Minerals (Because the Calling Supply is essentially saving you 100 minerals)
In the early game, you'll be loving MULE. As the game progresses, though, the MULE won't seem so great; Supply and Comsat will be more important.
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On February 23 2010 11:50 Flicky wrote: I hate to correct you all, but seeing as I've had to time this for various reasons, I'd like to point out that on Faster (the default play speed), The MULE is alive for 65 seconds.
Just trying to subtlely make people aware of this. not really relevant since the ingame timer matches the play speed. ie if your mule says itll stay alive for 90 seconds, itll stay alive for 90 game seconds regardless of how fast or how slow your speed is
also, lets go with the mule giving you 240 mins over 90 seconds
questions: how much minerals would an scv normally gather over 90 seconds? how much minerals would an scv gather in the time it takes to build a supply depot?
gotta factor that in if we're talking cost advantages of a mule
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It's 9 trips by 30 minerals = 270(378 on a rich mineral field). It's 6 times as effective as an SCV. Energy regenerates at a rate of 0.625(i.e. 5/8) energy per second.
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What if we used mules as a direct replacement for SCVs. That is instead of using the mule to spike income, we use the mule to reach normal income.
mule last ~65 seconds on fastest? takes 80 seconds to get 50 energy. A mule is 6 times as effective as an scv..but actualy moreso because it isn't affected by saturation. That leaves 15 seconds of when a mule isn't farming. I'll use 8 trips per mule to accont for user error. 8 trips per mule means 8 second mining time. So you're missing out on 6 SCVs doing 2 trips which is 30 minerals. That means a mule mines 240-30 = 210 minerals and replaces ~5 SCVs, or frees up 5 supply. Or 62.5 minerals worth of supply.
Meh, its prob not worth it. Mules are better for timing builds supply is better for late game?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2010 15:05 Zeke50100 wrote: Calling Supply is more long-term oriented, while Calling MULE is definitely short-term oriented.
On the contrary, calling supply is the more short-term application. The biggest draw of it is that the supply expansion is immediate, as opposed to the mining of the MULE which is spread out over the course of a minute. Immediate supplies allows the player to rapidly expand unit production in preparation for a timing push (indeed, this was the first application noted by TL members when the ability was first revealed). This immediacy has a much larger effect on making calling supply a short-term ability than the desaturation of minerals that the MULE creates.
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what do you think when is the best time to upgrade the cc? because when you do it you can't build scvs which costs you alot of minerals, and it shouldn't be more minerlas than you will get back with the mule. Is it still the best option to upgrade as fast as possible?
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Mule may give you an advantage early on, but over the lifetime of a base there is no gain. Once you have harvested the whole base you have still harvested and spent the amount of minerals which were present. However with supply once you have harvested all minerals you are (100minerals x number of times supply ability used) ahead economically.
To me this is a tactics vs strategy choice. Thinking 'oh cool I get more money using mule' without considering the overarching strategy of your play is a mistake. Unless the extra minerals at that time give you an advantage you should be choosing supply.
This is not as big a deal now because games are very short and unrefined. It is not commonplace for based to be mined out often and starvation matches are quite rare. But if/when the micro, unit mixes and counters are well known and games start getting longer and more macro orientated, It will all comes down to your plan for the match. If you are planning fast aggression or tech you will be better off with mule, but if you are not successful and end up turtling more or the match plays out longer than expected you will be the first to run out of resources. If you are planning for a more macro longer match then using the supply ability more would be the better option.
Eventually I expect both to be used and for the discussions to be more about when either is appropriate, not which is better.
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I'm quite sure MULE will be nerfed some time in the future. I guess its purpose *is* to add extra APM for lack of macro, but there really isn't much choice between MULE/Scan/Supplies.
Mule is priority #1 at least 80% of the time. It's nice to scan, but if opponent isn't going for cloaked units, there's really no choice in using energy for anything else than a MULE.
As I said, it adds additional APM requirement now when automine is in place of "build a worker, left click on it and then right click on the minerals", but it doesn't add much strategic depth compared to Chrono Boost for protoss, for example. That mechanic is really awesome.
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I can see calldown supply being useful for cheese tactics or early rushing.
If BBS is scary, imagine how scary BBCS would be.
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You guys do know that you can use the MULE everywhere on the map as long as you have vision on the area? I've seen new expansions been taken and as soon as the CC is up the patches has been bombed with MULEs from the other OCs.
Starvation matches are rare in SC today, and I'm pretty sure that its going to be rare in SC2 as well. If your main gets mined out quicker due to constant MULE use then just use them on your natural/third instead.
The SCVs will still do a vast majority of the mining, so if you empty your base without being able to get a new one then the problem wasn't that you used MULE instead of the supply drop. The problem would have been a flawed gameplan that didn't even let you get an expansion.
It's almost like saying that in some cases its tactical to make less SCVs so you can turtle on one base longer.
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I think you all are forgetting that with the mule you have those 240 minerals in 63 seconds, but with the depo you have an instat +100 and an instat +8 pop, that means you can skip some supplys to have an unit faster that you would normaly couldnt.
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Yes exactly, if anything I would say that the supply drop is the short term solution. It will let you skip a depot so you could maybe build another rax instead, and then start pumping for a very quick push/rush.
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The abilities are all situation-dependent. There is no such thing as "using mule all the time beats other abilities"
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The purpose of this thread is to try to figure out which situations call for which ability, and maybe then we can hypothesize how best to incorporate these new abilities into our builds.
Let's assume that at any point in the game, if you have neither need for scans or for supply depots, you can just use the available energy to MULE minerals faster. Then we need to consider, (a) when is a scan more important than a MULE? (b) when is calldown supplies more important than a MULE?
MULE v Scan: Is there a DT in your base? Is there a timing at which you need to know what your opponent is teching? Could you have easily averted the need for scans by some other means (why don't you have turrets? couldn't you send a unit to scout what your opponent is teching?).
SC1 gave us nothing but scans (because silos weren't worth it) so we are used to scanning with high frequency to gain situational awareness. In SC2, we can strengthen our economy by avoiding scans as much as possible. This means awareness, preparation, and fault-tolerance are even more important considerations as we design our strategies. If you skimp on turrets and it costs you scans to take care of the problem, your economy is going to get hurt in new ways. Producing air units to give constant scouting information will likely be an invaluable tactic.
MULE v Supply: Are you supply blocked at the moment? Are you going to be producing units so quickly that clearing some extra supply will prevent a block? Is vespene gas the limiting factor in your build? Do you simply have more minerals than you need at the moment? Anytime you notice that you don't immediately benefit from excess minerals, calldown supplies is the better choice.
The first rule of good macro is zeroing your minerals. This might not always be feasible when extra minerals can only provide you marines and hellions - these aren't useless units, but you wouldn't mass marines and vultures against carriers in SC1, you would wait for more gas and make goliaths. The point is, you should get as much money as you need to achieve your objectives as soon as possible. Because vespene is the bottleneck, constant MULEs are not not necessary to maintain 100% production of your ideal unit composition, unless you're massing marines and hellions.
The sooner you see opportunities in your build to calldown supplies, the better. Minerals saved earlier in the game are an investment in the long run. For example, if you work 2 calldowns into an infantry build, you've payed for one additional barracks in place of 2 depots, and the barracks will help you spend the extra minerals you will be obtaining from subsequent MULEs.
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Sorry for the continued wall of text, but I just can't stop. :p
Another interesting point is that the majority of SC1 players have a hard time effectively spending their money. Queuing doesn't count, and even competitive play considers minerals below 500 as "decent" when there is a lot of action in the game. In SC2, if your money isn't below ~200 minerals (MULE income minus the regular cost of 1 supply depot) after the 50 energy has recharged, what's the point of using a MULE? You already have 200+ resources you can spend immediately (which you didn't because you have bad macro) and you can use another one of the OC's abilities this energy round. If you find that your money is 0 or "negative" (you couldn't build something on time), then you do need to adjust with more MULE.
Let's talk about your objectives.
Assuming no units are queued (because this is typically how players hide their excess money), if the sum of the resources you have banked and the resources you will collect in the next 50 energy round exceeds the cost of units produced in that same period, then you're not at full production capability. If it doesn't meet the cost of units, you need to MULE to fill the empty queues you will have.
You can choose to spend the excess resources in line with your objectives: war (more production buildings), tech and infrastructure (turrets, towers), or expand your economy (CC, workers). The condition for using Calldown Supply is when you have resources leftover after unit production to meet your objectives. The higher your objectives, the less likely you will be able to use this ability. For example, if you try to simultaneously increase production for an ongoing battle, expand, and tech at the same time, your budget will be too large to invest. This costly agenda may not even be strategically feasible.
Recognizing that we can't strategically do everything at once is where we will get allowances to invest in our longterm economy. For example, if I'm already winning a battle I do not need to add extra production buildings. If I'm massing units for an imminent fight and my resources are adequate, I don't need to take another expansion until after I've rolled out. Similarly I do not need to tech any farther than the extent to which my opponent's tech puts me at a disadvantage and my marginal advantage for further tech diminishes. Quite often your opponent's potential strength will simply deny you objectives.
Hopefully it's clear from all of this that you shouldn't just mindlessly spam MULE all of the time. Pace your economy and your long-term victory is more assured.
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it seems like call down supply is useless as the extra minerals from MULE make up for it. as long as you are watching your supply carefully supply blocks should never become a problem ..
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That is another point, who says Supply Block is a mere matter of poor skill and therefore entirely avoidable? Terrans place their Supply depos on vulnerable positions to wall, why wouldn´t the opponent not attack them if the Mineral line is secure? This makes Terrans nearly unsupplyblockable unlike Protoss and Zerg. Just something to consider.
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