Orbital Command Abilities - Page 2
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Augury
United States758 Posts
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On February 23 2010 14:47 mmp wrote: One thing to keep in mind is that if you use a MULE, you will still need to spend 100 minerals on a supply depot, so you ought to subtract 100 from the minerals it gains you when compared alongside the Supply ability. Maybe 140-200 net minerals per casting cycle, assuming you make only one depot in that cycle. Also keep in mind that a MULE will help you mine more quickly, but it does not generate resources that did not already exist on the map. It simply saves you time. Calling down supplies saves you 100 minerals, effectively deepening your mineral patches by another 100 minerals you can mine in the long run. If you use the call down supplies ability at least ten times in a game, you've saved yourself nearly one mineral patch that would have been spent soley on supply depots. So when people say that the MULE is free money, it's not. Calling down supplies is free money, the MULE just gives a boost to your economy but mines you out more quickly. You make a good point with the "deepening" of mineral patches using calldown supply, but I'm not sure what you mean with your first paragraph. What does calling down a mule have to do with needing to spend an EXTRA 100 minerals? | ||
mmp
United States2130 Posts
On February 23 2010 14:53 synapse wrote: You make a good point with the "deepening" of mineral patches using calldown supply, but I'm not sure what you mean with your first paragraph. What does calling down a mule have to do with needing to spend an EXTRA 100 minerals? If you place the two choices side by side, choosing to MULE will get you some 240-300 minerals, but you will still need to spend 100 on a supply depot on account of natural population growth. If you choose to calldown supplies you remain neutral (gain nothing, but no depot needed), so your money can go to other things. If you throw comsat into the comparison also, you need to spend 100 minerals on that depot. Example: Let's say you choose to use the calldown supply, and use the 100 saved minerals to build an extra hellion. It can fulfill the role of comsat (to some degree) by scouting, and potentially gain some map control or harassment potential. Look at it this way: Supply depots are a tax on your income. If you don't pay the 100mineral tax, your population is stunted. Calling down supplies relieves you of this tax, the MULE does not. | ||
Lozzo.cu
United States101 Posts
On February 23 2010 12:33 TheYango wrote: Each supply depot you upgrade is one MULE you can't get, making it's effective cost 240 minerals. That's pretty expensive. In comparison, building a new depot is cheap. The only time you might want to up supply depots is if you're constrained by time, not resources. As an opponent's army grows, and tech options become more dangerous, the value of a scanner sweep grows, because it becomes less likely that you ca scout them with 240 minerals, especially in a timely manner (the fact that sweep is immediate and unstoppable is worth a lot--even if you could sneak a unit into the opponent's base, they could block you long enough still). It's probably not worth your first MULE, but I'm pretty sure it reaches the effective cost of a MULE just fine. The supply depot upgrade definitely needs either some fixing, or a complete redo. The times in which it's worth its cost right now are just too narrow. thats actually the exact opposite from what I'd argue. As build orders and tech rushes are refined and modified, early game scouting will be denied harder, and early game attack windows will be created. the first few energy charges will be most crucial, especially with zerg banelings and protoss warp in's as game progresses, air units, ground harass, and multiple CCs will actually make scout easier. For example, while it was easy in sc bw to scan for expos, you are now better off sending a unit over (like pros use a vulture while noobs are lazy). yes, tech options open up as the army expands, but most players place tech very well if they are trying to suprise you anyway. and again, as build orders, army counters are refined, soon you will "know" when protoss is "adding arbiters" or "switching to carriers" like most real time strategies now. i wouldnt be suprised if a tvz build order will now include "20 scan" or "20 mule" when people are making bo's by the single mineral/gas. | ||
Lozzo.cu
United States101 Posts
im pretty sure, from the point of view of designing games for all variety players, the supply adding feature will be a key to differentiate good and amazing players. supply block happens all the time when you are multitasking, and pros dont have it happen often because, well, they are pros. they will learn to save time and mineral by practicing and thinking ahead. but what happens to your average, saturday-night gamer? he sits down with his buddy and plays a team game, fooling around with low apm while chatting. he gets supply blocked, and instead of waiting or build factories with the extra money, he uses supply addition and he chats "lol i can add supply im so imba" dont forget that a game has to be created where a pro has an opportunity to excel, and this simply will be apart of his tool. so yea, useless for TL gamers, but superbly useful for average players! | ||
Zeke50100
United States2220 Posts
Calling MULE only increases the speed at which you obtain the minerals you would eventually obtain in the first place. If you don't make efficient use of the "early" minerals, you've essentially wasted 50 energy and 100 Minerals (Because the Calling Supply is essentially saving you 100 minerals) In the early game, you'll be loving MULE. As the game progresses, though, the MULE won't seem so great; Supply and Comsat will be more important. | ||
Simple
United States801 Posts
On February 23 2010 11:50 Flicky wrote: I hate to correct you all, but seeing as I've had to time this for various reasons, I'd like to point out that on Faster (the default play speed), The MULE is alive for 65 seconds. Just trying to subtlely make people aware of this. not really relevant since the ingame timer matches the play speed. ie if your mule says itll stay alive for 90 seconds, itll stay alive for 90 game seconds regardless of how fast or how slow your speed is also, lets go with the mule giving you 240 mins over 90 seconds questions: how much minerals would an scv normally gather over 90 seconds? how much minerals would an scv gather in the time it takes to build a supply depot? gotta factor that in if we're talking cost advantages of a mule | ||
lololol
5198 Posts
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caution.slip
United States775 Posts
mule last ~65 seconds on fastest? takes 80 seconds to get 50 energy. A mule is 6 times as effective as an scv..but actualy moreso because it isn't affected by saturation. That leaves 15 seconds of when a mule isn't farming. I'll use 8 trips per mule to accont for user error. 8 trips per mule means 8 second mining time. So you're missing out on 6 SCVs doing 2 trips which is 30 minerals. That means a mule mines 240-30 = 210 minerals and replaces ~5 SCVs, or frees up 5 supply. Or 62.5 minerals worth of supply. Meh, its prob not worth it. Mules are better for timing builds supply is better for late game? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 23 2010 15:05 Zeke50100 wrote: Calling Supply is more long-term oriented, while Calling MULE is definitely short-term oriented. On the contrary, calling supply is the more short-term application. The biggest draw of it is that the supply expansion is immediate, as opposed to the mining of the MULE which is spread out over the course of a minute. Immediate supplies allows the player to rapidly expand unit production in preparation for a timing push (indeed, this was the first application noted by TL members when the ability was first revealed). This immediacy has a much larger effect on making calling supply a short-term ability than the desaturation of minerals that the MULE creates. | ||
Maniac-
Austria7 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
To me this is a tactics vs strategy choice. Thinking 'oh cool I get more money using mule' without considering the overarching strategy of your play is a mistake. Unless the extra minerals at that time give you an advantage you should be choosing supply. This is not as big a deal now because games are very short and unrefined. It is not commonplace for based to be mined out often and starvation matches are quite rare. But if/when the micro, unit mixes and counters are well known and games start getting longer and more macro orientated, It will all comes down to your plan for the match. If you are planning fast aggression or tech you will be better off with mule, but if you are not successful and end up turtling more or the match plays out longer than expected you will be the first to run out of resources. If you are planning for a more macro longer match then using the supply ability more would be the better option. Eventually I expect both to be used and for the discussions to be more about when either is appropriate, not which is better. | ||
MidKnight
Lithuania884 Posts
I guess its purpose *is* to add extra APM for lack of macro, but there really isn't much choice between MULE/Scan/Supplies. Mule is priority #1 at least 80% of the time. It's nice to scan, but if opponent isn't going for cloaked units, there's really no choice in using energy for anything else than a MULE. As I said, it adds additional APM requirement now when automine is in place of "build a worker, left click on it and then right click on the minerals", but it doesn't add much strategic depth compared to Chrono Boost for protoss, for example. That mechanic is really awesome. | ||
sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
If BBS is scary, imagine how scary BBCS would be. | ||
Noah
Norway164 Posts
Starvation matches are rare in SC today, and I'm pretty sure that its going to be rare in SC2 as well. If your main gets mined out quicker due to constant MULE use then just use them on your natural/third instead. The SCVs will still do a vast majority of the mining, so if you empty your base without being able to get a new one then the problem wasn't that you used MULE instead of the supply drop. The problem would have been a flawed gameplan that didn't even let you get an expansion. It's almost like saying that in some cases its tactical to make less SCVs so you can turtle on one base longer. | ||
Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
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Noah
Norway164 Posts
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Neak
United Kingdom124 Posts
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mmp
United States2130 Posts
Let's assume that at any point in the game, if you have neither need for scans or for supply depots, you can just use the available energy to MULE minerals faster. Then we need to consider, (a) when is a scan more important than a MULE? (b) when is calldown supplies more important than a MULE? MULE v Scan: Is there a DT in your base? Is there a timing at which you need to know what your opponent is teching? Could you have easily averted the need for scans by some other means (why don't you have turrets? couldn't you send a unit to scout what your opponent is teching?). SC1 gave us nothing but scans (because silos weren't worth it) so we are used to scanning with high frequency to gain situational awareness. In SC2, we can strengthen our economy by avoiding scans as much as possible. This means awareness, preparation, and fault-tolerance are even more important considerations as we design our strategies. If you skimp on turrets and it costs you scans to take care of the problem, your economy is going to get hurt in new ways. Producing air units to give constant scouting information will likely be an invaluable tactic. MULE v Supply: Are you supply blocked at the moment? Are you going to be producing units so quickly that clearing some extra supply will prevent a block? Is vespene gas the limiting factor in your build? Do you simply have more minerals than you need at the moment? Anytime you notice that you don't immediately benefit from excess minerals, calldown supplies is the better choice. The first rule of good macro is zeroing your minerals. This might not always be feasible when extra minerals can only provide you marines and hellions - these aren't useless units, but you wouldn't mass marines and vultures against carriers in SC1, you would wait for more gas and make goliaths. The point is, you should get as much money as you need to achieve your objectives as soon as possible. Because vespene is the bottleneck, constant MULEs are not not necessary to maintain 100% production of your ideal unit composition, unless you're massing marines and hellions. The sooner you see opportunities in your build to calldown supplies, the better. Minerals saved earlier in the game are an investment in the long run. For example, if you work 2 calldowns into an infantry build, you've payed for one additional barracks in place of 2 depots, and the barracks will help you spend the extra minerals you will be obtaining from subsequent MULEs. | ||
mmp
United States2130 Posts
Another interesting point is that the majority of SC1 players have a hard time effectively spending their money. Queuing doesn't count, and even competitive play considers minerals below 500 as "decent" when there is a lot of action in the game. In SC2, if your money isn't below ~200 minerals (MULE income minus the regular cost of 1 supply depot) after the 50 energy has recharged, what's the point of using a MULE? You already have 200+ resources you can spend immediately (which you didn't because you have bad macro) and you can use another one of the OC's abilities this energy round. If you find that your money is 0 or "negative" (you couldn't build something on time), then you do need to adjust with more MULE. Let's talk about your objectives. Assuming no units are queued (because this is typically how players hide their excess money), if the sum of the resources you have banked and the resources you will collect in the next 50 energy round exceeds the cost of units produced in that same period, then you're not at full production capability. If it doesn't meet the cost of units, you need to MULE to fill the empty queues you will have. You can choose to spend the excess resources in line with your objectives: war (more production buildings), tech and infrastructure (turrets, towers), or expand your economy (CC, workers). The condition for using Calldown Supply is when you have resources leftover after unit production to meet your objectives. The higher your objectives, the less likely you will be able to use this ability. For example, if you try to simultaneously increase production for an ongoing battle, expand, and tech at the same time, your budget will be too large to invest. This costly agenda may not even be strategically feasible. Recognizing that we can't strategically do everything at once is where we will get allowances to invest in our longterm economy. For example, if I'm already winning a battle I do not need to add extra production buildings. If I'm massing units for an imminent fight and my resources are adequate, I don't need to take another expansion until after I've rolled out. Similarly I do not need to tech any farther than the extent to which my opponent's tech puts me at a disadvantage and my marginal advantage for further tech diminishes. Quite often your opponent's potential strength will simply deny you objectives. Hopefully it's clear from all of this that you shouldn't just mindlessly spam MULE all of the time. Pace your economy and your long-term victory is more assured. | ||
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