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Note that this is assuming that SC2 has a progaming scene at all.
I read a few speculative posts in the Ret thread that said that progaming houses in SC2 would likely be focused more on tactics than on refining mechanics to be perfect, and that it would likely mean the end of 14 hour practice days.
Is this true? Athletes in physical sports can have 10-15 year careers, which seems very unlikely with a Brood War player, who seem lucky to spend 5 years playing. Would longer player careers help progaming?
And is Starcraft 2 sort of a saving grace for foreigners, who would be able to compete with Koreans without actually going to Korea and relearning the game?
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I think the focus is still gonna be korea. Everything is gonna be there. However, I think foreigners can still be as good as the koreans in starcraft 2 without going to korea and practicing non-stop. Longer player careers would definitely help the scene but at the same time it gives less chance for younger players to come in which is also a huge problem in the korean scene.
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Boxer doesnt want sc2 to be just focused on korea. He wants other countrys to realize how great sc is.
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All of this will depend upon the extent to which SC2 catches on as an e-sport among the foreigners. A big reason why Korean Starcraft is so insular is because the foreign SC scene has been so incredibly sparse, for so long; and this sparseness has led, over time, to an ever-widening skill gap between foreigners and Koreans (though this may be lessening as of late), which has in turn led the foreign scene to build itself up in imitation of the Korean one, seeking to emulate it in every way possible.
If Starcraft 2 really does catch on in a big way overseas, though, then we're going to almost definitely start seeing foreigners constructing teams and methodologies of training from the ground up, in very non-Korean ways. This will mean that when the two scenes do inevitably come into contact, then the foreign scene will be able to show a legitimate contrast to the Korean scene, a contrast that will inevitably reveal all of the the weakness and deficiencies of Korean SC training methods and play-styles. To what extent the Korean scene can or will adapt to this, I don't know; but though I still expect Korea to dominate SC2 at least in a cultural sense (i.e. no where else will e-sports be so widely accepted), I expect the actual competitive playing field to be much, much more open than it has been.
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10387 Posts
I still think that the best players will still come from Korea, since they will be the ones practicing the game the most.
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On December 30 2009 08:14 jalstar wrote:
I read a few speculative posts in the Ret thread that said that progaming houses in SC2 would likely be focused more on tactics than on refining mechanics to be perfect, and that it would likely mean the end of 14 hour practice days.
In my opinion SC2 will go very similar way as SC1. At the begining it will be mostly about tactics but eventually (if it has the same potential as SC1) it will turn into mechanics based SC we know nowadays. It will happen faster than in SC1 though. Again, this is just what I think.
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Nah, people will grind 10 hrs a day at SC2 to become the best. If you can do it with every other competetive video game in history I don't see why you can't do it in SC2 as well.
And the koreans will still dominate if they like it enough to switch over from BW (Which seeing the strength of the scene in korea is kinda hard to see happening fully).
Here's my speculation:
- Game comes out, everyone happy.
- Game is played for a few weeks/months, basic strategies are developed.
- After half a year the game is played at the same level as BW circa 04/05
- Strategies become standardized, mechanics become the focus.
If SC2 doesn't have the mechanical demands necessary for the competetive esport (SC, Quake III, SF4,SSBM) it dies here and becomes another War3
If it does, it becomes about how much you practice, and 10+ hrs daily is required to keep up.
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On December 30 2009 09:15 Piy wrote:
If SC2 doesn't have the mechanical demands necessary for the competetive esport (SC, Quake III, SF4,SSBM) it dies here and becomes another War3
Sure hope SC2 doesnt end up being another Warcraft 3. Another game with ~96 heros to keep track of *shudders*
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On December 30 2009 09:15 Piy wrote:
Nah, people will grind 10 hrs a day at SC2 to become the best. If you can do it with every other competetive video game in history I don't see why you can't do it in SC2 as well.
And the koreans will still dominate if they like it enough to switch over from BW (Which seeing the strength of the scene in korea is kinda hard to see happening fully).
Here's my speculation:
- Game comes out, everyone happy.
- Game is played for a few weeks/months, basic strategies are developed.
- After half a year the game is played at the same level as BW circa 04/05
- Strategies become standardized, mechanics become the focus.
If SC2 doesn't have the mechanical demands necessary for the competetive esport (SC, Quake III, SF4,SSBM) it dies here and becomes another War3
If it does, it becomes about how much you practice, and 10+ hrs daily is required to keep up.
Is Warcraft 3 dead? There seemed to be a lot of people watching it at WCG, not as much as CS or BW but a lot more than some of the other games.
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Keep in mind that SC2 has two expansions coming after it. Expansions can invite major game changes, and frankly I think between all the balance patches that come out and the expansions the boat will be too rocky for strategy to really settle. Think of the early days of War3 patching. Some strat was always becoming dominant/spammed and then would be nerfed in some way
I mean, in Warcraft 3 they were making fairly big balance changes on average every 2.5 months for over 2 years. Now, I don't expect that they were all metagame sweeping but they were in response to strategies in use at the time and thus were constantly shifting the metagame.
Yes, if this was Super Smash Bros Brawl or some other console release strategies could very well be more or less fixed after 6 months. Indeed, strategies *will* be figured out faster. But in no way I think will all strategies become standardized in such little time with balance patches possibly coming out that frequently and expansions on the horizon.
Just my thoughts.
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On December 30 2009 10:41 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 09:15 Piy wrote:
Nah, people will grind 10 hrs a day at SC2 to become the best. If you can do it with every other competetive video game in history I don't see why you can't do it in SC2 as well.
And the koreans will still dominate if they like it enough to switch over from BW (Which seeing the strength of the scene in korea is kinda hard to see happening fully).
Here's my speculation:
- Game comes out, everyone happy.
- Game is played for a few weeks/months, basic strategies are developed.
- After half a year the game is played at the same level as BW circa 04/05
- Strategies become standardized, mechanics become the focus.
If SC2 doesn't have the mechanical demands necessary for the competetive esport (SC, Quake III, SF4,SSBM) it dies here and becomes another War3
If it does, it becomes about how much you practice, and 10+ hrs daily is required to keep up.
Is Warcraft 3 dead? There seemed to be a lot of people watching it at WCG, not as much as CS or BW but a lot more than some of the other games.
Last WCG no one was watching CS and BW compared to War3, Bisu himself stated that he felt that Chinese were far more interested in War3.
However, War3 is slowly dying in Europe and in Korea too (even though War3 never really established itself in Korea), and the imminence of SC2 release accelerates the processus.
As an ex War3 player, I can tell you that War3 is based on mechanics too. Mainly micro, some multitasking and macro depending of the MU. But the difference is that these mechanics can not be extensively trained like in SC. The reason is that War3 contains a huge part of decision making and reflexes that you can't improve by training more and more.
This is why the pro stay on TOP for so long, their main qualities are innate.
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There's no possible way for the metagame to be stale in less than 2.5 years. Day one sees release, followed by stream of patches. Year one sees another game changing release, followed by more patches. Year two sees another release, followed by at least a trickle of patches.
That is a pretty long period of time, 25% of BW's life roughly. Only SC2 will be an esport right out of the gate, whereas BW had to slowly grow into shape.
Koreans will continue to do what they do. I don't know if grinding 80 hour weeks will gain you the sort of skill that will be necessary to win on a consistent basis or not. More than likely it will be. I wish there were some way to ban this sort of training, it saps the life out of the players, preventing it from taking off as a real sport. But what is, is. Hopefully there'll be a more vibrant foreign league to compensate.
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War3 isn't "dead" people still play it competitively just like SC, but the proscene is dwindling outside of China, China have always been big on War3.
We can argue all we want, but SC came to where it is today by chance, not by design. People figured out things over a span of numerous years, but we cannot say the same will happen for SC2, I have high hopes because it is Blizzard and they have always put out successful and wonderful games. I think they have learnt from War3 (well at least I hope) that highly micro focused RTS has it's limitations and that RTS where economy and the manipulation of one's economy makes for a more interesting strategy game.
Let me repeat this, SC is where it is today by chance, we can only hope the same will happen for SC2
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I think being on top of your game will require less practice of mechanics and more practice of tatics therefore it will be easier to stay at your best because the mechanics arent so straining.
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My Guess:
Starcraft 2 will have a progaming scene for a short period of time but then fail.
It might be fun playing it but as a spectator sport...
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On December 30 2009 13:20 Ryoo wrote:
My Guess:
Starcraft 2 will have a progaming scene for a short period of time but then fail.
It might be fun playing it but as a spectator sport...
I can't imagine that happening. I'm quite sure that SC2 will be clearer to watch and more entertaining than WC3 at least. WC3 has a common complaint when it comes to visual clarity, yet it still has a massive pro-gaming scene.
Starcraft 2 is 100% guaranteed to have a healthy pro-gaming scene. The bigger question is mainly if it will be good enough to surpass SC1.
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On December 30 2009 13:20 Ryoo wrote:
My Guess:
Starcraft 2 will have a progaming scene for a short period of time but then fail.
It might be fun playing it but as a spectator sport...
Seriously? I love watching the sc2 games and can only imagine what will happen when its released and there is good players playing I can't wait it'll be so fun to watch. If I enjoy watching the battle reports I can only imagine how much I will enjoy watching proleague (if it happens) and stuff like that ^^.
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On December 30 2009 13:52 blade55555 wrote:
Seriously? I love watching the sc2 games and can only imagine what will happen when its released and there is good players playing I can't wait it'll be so fun to watch. If I enjoy watching the battle reports I can only imagine how much I will enjoy watching proleague (if it happens) and stuff like that ^^.
I agree with this guy. All Battle Reports have been enjoyable to watch despite the players. Imagine that once it has been released in it's "final" state (all things polished),S-Class Progamers playing it and the Casting Archon commentating for us.
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On December 30 2009 13:27 Spawkuring wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2009 13:20 Ryoo wrote:
My Guess:
Starcraft 2 will have a progaming scene for a short period of time but then fail.
It might be fun playing it but as a spectator sport... I can't imagine that happening. I'm quite sure that SC2 will be clearer to watch and more entertaining than WC3 at least. WC3 has a common complaint when it comes to visual clarity, yet it still has a massive pro-gaming scene. Starcraft 2 is 100% guaranteed to have a healthy pro-gaming scene. The bigger question is mainly if it will be good enough to surpass SC1.
i personally dont think that will happen (sc2 surpassing sc1) because although sc2 has different stuff (graphics, mechanics, units etc...) sc1 was a beautiful game and will also hold that originality. and sometimes no amount of fixing can overcome that nostalgia.
for example zelda ocarina of time...best fucking zelda series despite other later series with better graphics or stuff, ocarina of times kicks major major ass.
to the thread debate: when new games come out two things usually happens either a) it is perfect or barely flawed (very rare) or b) ppl are going to spam playing this game and find holes that need to be patched up with flamings and arguements and abusing. however looking at blizzards rep. ...i think the pro scene will be fine and everyone will enjoy it despite some future inevitable flaws.
btw does anyone know if we HAVE to buy the other expansion sets to be able to play online to stay updated or can we just download series of patches i would hate to think i would be left in the shadow when i have the wings of liberty play it and when zerg expansion comes out i cant play online anymore .
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