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The Twelve Days of Theorycrafting!

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-24 19:50:53
December 12 2009 23:20 GMT
#1
In the spirit of the holidays and hope that my christmas wish will come true, I have decided to create a song about improving the MULE. Every day I will add another segment describing how the proposed "Remote Mining MULE" could enhance Starcraft 2.


[image loading]



On the twelth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Well done and stunning,
+ Show Spoiler +
I want to talk about something I think has been undervalued in all the macro debate. This is Presentation and Perception. But first I want describe something I have seen with new players. New players naturally gravitate towards micro oriented play styles. There are many reasons for this but I think that one of the biggest has to do with what I call visual presentation. Simply put explosions and lazers are alot more interesting to look at then workers mining. Obviously you never want players just sitting their watching animations but visual displays greatly impact enjoyment and engagement.

One of best pieces of advise to teach new players how to macro better is to tell them to stop watching their battles. This is hard because battles have that movie expeirence which is part of the reason we play Starcraft. And yet Starcraft is not just about watching battles, there is also a production and economic side of gameplay with its own benefits, playstyles, values and enriching experiences. Now building up your base will never look as spectacular as a zergling swarm heading straight into a siege tank line. But you can make base construction and management visually stimulating and in doing so help new players to develop macro playstyles. Add alittle movie magic to macro.

For a Remote Mining MULE the dropping, relaunching and gathering animations all have great potential. In the few shaky cam footage we have seen the drop pods are one of the coolest things to see falling. A Atmospheric Escape Pod rocketing into the sky would be equally impressive as would an mining animation where the MULE turbo grinds minerals into a mouth shaped like a bore drill. But the animation that I feel has the biggest potential for in base "eye candy" is transforming. Transforming robots are always cool. Plus they are a main Terran theme.

Imagine the drop pod falling to the ground, it lays still for a moment with smoke still rising from the crater below. Suddenly, its outer covering begins to turn and shift. Whirling parts are exposed inside. Two arms are assembled and push the Drop Pod off the ground and into a upright position. Further shifitng reforms Drop Pod thrusters into the MULE's rear propulsion device. Upon completion of mining dutyies the MULE packs itself into a lift off device and rockets to the sky. These things all add visual presentation to macroing. This inturn gives the perception that the base is alive. That you are an active participant in a dynamic mobilization of combat forces and that it is your hand that moves the cogs of war.


Clever worker sniping,
+ Show Spoiler +
Remote Mining MULEs add dynamic choices and interesting gameplay to worker sniping. Remote Mining MULEs would have the ability to manually launch into the sky early. The minerals a MULE harvested are not deposited into your base until the MULE returns to the sky for processing. A player would be able to order a MULE to launch into the sky before its timed life is up. This is a cash out technique that locks in the profits. The main reason players would want to do this is if the MULE is in danger.

Lets say you are calling down MULEs to your base mineral line. All the sudden Mutalisks appear above your worker line. You now have a series of decisions to make:
Do you select all your workers and order them away first?
Do you select your MULEs and get them to launch first?
Since the MULEs are slower than SCVs will the enemy be able to pick them off?
Should I retreat the MULEs to a safe location and then order them to launch?
Can you select the MULEs from a group of workers fast and give them another order like launch?

Now lets look at the new decisions that the enemy player has for harrasing this worker line. He knows that in a couple of seconds the MULE will transform into an Escape Pod and rocket into the sky. While the MULE is transforming into a Escape Pod it is immobile and completly vulnerable. If the zerg player sees the MULEs drop down than he knows that 30 seconds later that MULE will be forced to transfrom into an Excape Pod. The enemy may pounce at this time to rob the Terran player of many minerals.

Manual launching also give Terrans some level of excape if they call down MULEs at a remote location and then recognize that their is nearby danger. If you see that the enemy army is moving towards your MULEs you can order them to abort mining and save the minerals you have earned. However, since the MULEs have a significant transforming time the enemy can still catch the MULEs before they escape. Players may also want to manually launch all thier MULEs if they absolutly need more minerals right now. The sacrifice is that you are losing the entire mineral potential that you would have recieved had you allowed the MULE to mining its entire duration. More minerals sooner at the cost of less minerals overall.


Many rewards of reaping,
+ Show Spoiler +
As Dustin said in the recent TL interview* the purpose of the new macro mechanics is to promote macro playstyles. A Remote Mining MULE promotes a macro oriented playstyle in several ways. Like the current version of the MULE it requires the player to target the mineral location they want to drop the MULE. This means that players who are in their base macroing will be in a better position to use the ability. Players who are micromanaging thier battles will not often be viewing bases or unoccupied expansions where they can dropMULEs.

A Remote Mining MULE promotes a Macro thinking style. Players can develop large scale strategys for how to secure an economic advantage. An example of this long term planning would be which expansions to drop MULEs at and when as the game progress. This can be an strategy "game plan" much like build orders are.

Remote Mining also serve as a tactical manuever that macro players can get better at. This is similar to a storm/reaver/vulture drop manuver. It is an extra task that draws players attention and view to a different part of the mape. Successful completion of this manuver results in economic advantage.

*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107013


Design necromancing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Part of my goal in theorycrafting an improved MULE was to bring the MULE “back from the dead”. Put frankely, its not good gameplay to have things constantly dieing in the player's base. I understand why the MULE has a timed lifespan but it leaves a bad taste in the players mouth. To make matters worse macro is about building up your base and making your army bigger. Having players witness their assets fall apart every 30 seconds is the antithesis of the gameplay style you are trying to promote! It gives players unnessisisary bad feelings and deminishes their enjoyment of macroing.

I remember when the MULE first came out. One of the biggest things to catch people eye was that it didnt fit well to have a robot you call down from space that just runs out of batteries and dies. It didnt seem logical or economical for Terrans to invest that kind of money in a mining machine only to give it AAA batteries. Maybe if we used the cold fusion for more then just chilling beer

Now Starcraft 2 is certainly allowed to bend the limits of disbelief. For instance, timed life units falling apart is fine for the Nighthawk's turrets. But why have a unit as prominent and important as the MULE fall apart? Especfially when it fits so poorly for the unit's role and there are alternative and cooler ways of ending the unit's life. At the end of its timed life a Remote Mining MULE would transform into a atomospheric escape pods and launch back into space. The lore would be that MULE needs to return to the orbiting space station for refueling, maintenance and processing of its minerals payload. Not only does this enhance the units charector, it also draws from portrayals of space mining in literature and movies.

In addition to being a less awkward lore explaination, there are actual gameplay benefits to having the MULE fly back up to space when it finishes its tour. Consider what happens with the current version of the MULE if your timing is slightly off. Currently if you misdirrect the MULE or order it to do something and its rhythm gets thrown off then that 2 second delay could mean the MULE dies right before returning its last batch of minerals to the CC. Over the course of the game these failed trips could add up to allot of lost minerals. And that’s assuming that the current timing always has the MULE dying after dropping off its last mienrals. For all we know it could be that MULEs never finish mining and always drop their last shipment. To complicate matters further some minerals patches could be set further back from the CC which could also mean that the MULEs last trip will be terminated prematurely. It is extremely bad for player enjoyment to lose minerals just because the MULEs cycle happened to be thrown slightly off.

Even if the developers dont want a Remote Mining MULE, I would hope they would at least consider making the MULE transform back into a rocket pod. Launching back into space gives a much better impression than just running out of batteries and falling apart.


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty. If needed the MULE could be manually ordered to launch into space early to lock in the minerals profit.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
December 12 2009 23:31 GMT
#2
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.
White-Ra fighting!
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-12 23:36:44
December 12 2009 23:36 GMT
#3
And a Merry Christmas to you too Mr. Scrooge!
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
horang3
Profile Joined November 2009
United States261 Posts
December 13 2009 00:25 GMT
#4
the hat looks stupid. Blizzard is trying way too hard to make this game too much like christmas. SC2 is going to be like Santa's Workshop in space.
Do great work
UmmTheHobo
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States650 Posts
December 13 2009 00:38 GMT
#5
Those are actually some amazing ideas for the mule! Imagine stealing minerals from enemies new expansion lol

On December 13 2009 09:25 horang3 wrote:
the hat looks stupid. Blizzard is trying way too hard to make this game too much like christmas. SC2 is going to be like Santa's Workshop in space.


This literally made me lol


...
kerr0r
Profile Joined September 2008
Norway319 Posts
December 13 2009 01:20 GMT
#6
On December 13 2009 08:31 m3rciless wrote:
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.

On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.
iLoveKT
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Philippines3615 Posts
December 13 2009 01:34 GMT
#7
On December 13 2009 08:36 Archerofaiur wrote:
And a Merry Christmas to you too Mr. Scrooge!

I actually watched this movie.
Woo Jung Ho
kerr0r
Profile Joined September 2008
Norway319 Posts
December 13 2009 01:45 GMT
#8
On December 13 2009 10:34 iLoveKT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2009 08:36 Archerofaiur wrote:
And a Merry Christmas to you too Mr. Scrooge!

I actually watched this movie.

Charles Dickens - World's first movie director!
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
December 13 2009 02:10 GMT
#9
On December 13 2009 10:20 kerr0r wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2009 08:31 m3rciless wrote:
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.

On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


So true.

On the third day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
pzea469
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1520 Posts
December 13 2009 04:33 GMT
#10
wait...so drop pod hits the ground, then turns into a mule, it gathers as many minerals as it can, then when time is up it ships back to space and then the minerals are transferred......

I love it. It would be a sweet target for the enemy and would encourage you to use it on expansions that you probably wouldn't take.
Kill the Deathball
Pufftrees
Profile Joined March 2009
2449 Posts
December 13 2009 12:52 GMT
#11
I like the new MULE concept. Fits terran in both lore and style.
Chance favors the prepared mind.
Sandrosuperstar
Profile Joined November 2009
Sweden525 Posts
December 13 2009 13:32 GMT
#12
Great idea and i think i speak for all ov us when i say that xmas in space is what sc2 lacks so far, if thers one thing that can solve the micro/macro problem it's the christmas spirit
I'm homo for Lomo, gay for GGplay, but at the end of the day I put my dong in Lee Jaedong
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
December 13 2009 19:27 GMT
#13
No new content yet. I'm waiting for the fourth day.
U Gotta Skate.
Latham
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
9560 Posts
December 13 2009 19:35 GMT
#14
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/9090 - The original 12 days of Xmas.
For the curse of life is the curse of want. PC = https://be.pcpartpicker.com/list/4JknvV
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-13 20:15:03
December 13 2009 20:04 GMT
#15
On December 13 2009 22:32 Sandrosuperstar wrote:
Great idea and i think i speak for all ov us when i say that xmas in space is what sc2 lacks so far, if thers one thing that can solve the micro/macro problem it's the christmas spirit




Oh come oh come HEY MAN MULE! Call down to this mineraaaal fieeeeeellld!

More Choice! More Choice! HEY MAAAAAN MUUULLLLEEEE!!! Has come to this minnneraalll fieeeld!
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
December 13 2009 23:19 GMT
#16
Where's the next installment? I'm interested to see how this works, since it seems to me you pretty much laid everything out in the OP.
White-Ra fighting!
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-13 23:42:36
December 13 2009 23:40 GMT
#17
On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me,

A tool turtlers love,

+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put there foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they feel it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additionaly resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center.

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
ComradeDover
Profile Joined November 2009
Bulgaria758 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-14 01:00:37
December 14 2009 01:00 GMT
#18
On December 14 2009 08:40 Archerofaiur wrote:
A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put there foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they feel it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additionaly resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


Okay. You have my attention now...
Bring back 2v2s!
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-14 17:42:42
December 14 2009 17:41 GMT
#19
On December 13 2009 11:10 Synwave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2009 10:20 kerr0r wrote:
On December 13 2009 08:31 m3rciless wrote:
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.

On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


So true.

On the third day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


On the fourth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 14 2009 20:21 GMT
#20
Archer, Im interested where you are going with this, but the current Terran race seems to be a reaction away from the old one:

1) Reapers are a very mobile form of infantry
2) Vikings are a very mobile unit as well.
3) Medevacs emphasize mobility
4) Banshees are mobile AtG harassers
5) Ive been seeing plenty of tanks not in siege mode in recent videos. I cant be bothered to look them all up, but when they are with armies, the tanks were mostly used in tank mode.
6) Units like Immortals/Ultras/Thors discourage turtling with tanks

With all the above changes, I cant really see the terran relying on turtling as much as they did before.

Keep it up though.
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 00:00:54
December 14 2009 21:13 GMT
#21
On the third day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. The Command Center has also gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs while lifted off. Combined with a faster lift off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Command Center and Lift-off then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. MULEs could harvest from the same minerals patches as friendly units but would block mining for enemy workers.

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
December 15 2009 04:46 GMT
#22
On December 15 2009 02:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 13 2009 11:10 Synwave wrote:
On December 13 2009 10:20 kerr0r wrote:
On December 13 2009 08:31 m3rciless wrote:
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.

On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


So true.

On the third day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


On the fourth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


hah

On the fifth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me
Fiiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaand new M.U.L.E.

♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 04:54:41
December 15 2009 04:54 GMT
#23
Oh come on at least make it rhyme with the song noobs.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
December 15 2009 04:58 GMT
#24
hush your making my globe warmer
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
LaughingTulkas
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1107 Posts
December 15 2009 08:42 GMT
#25
It took me a few moments to realize that to sing it requires you to say "M.U.L.E" as "emm you ell eee" but once I did I found singing it to be quite fun! Nice work, subscribed
"I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 15 2009 17:14 GMT
#26
On December 15 2009 13:46 Synwave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2009 02:41 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
On December 13 2009 11:10 Synwave wrote:
On December 13 2009 10:20 kerr0r wrote:
On December 13 2009 08:31 m3rciless wrote:
Good thing you're making or a song, or i would have thought this was just another MULE thread that can't die until christmas. Oh wait.

On the second day of Christmas Blizzard gave to me
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


So true.

On the third day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


On the fourth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me...
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a brand new M.U.L.E.


hah

On the fifth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me
Fiiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaand new M.U.L.E.



lol

On the sixth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me

Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 23:36:58
December 15 2009 20:06 GMT
#27
On the fourth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly units could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy units would be blocked.

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
number1gog
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1081 Posts
December 15 2009 20:11 GMT
#28
So far, I love this thread. Keep it up!
5sz6sz7sz1a2a3a4a kwanrollllllled
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 20:29:38
December 15 2009 20:23 GMT
#29
By the way If you like the idea of a Remote Mining MULE please post what you like about it. See if you can figure out one of the benefits before I get to that day
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Aim Here
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Scotland672 Posts
December 15 2009 20:44 GMT
#30
On the sixth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me

Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 20:55:39
December 15 2009 20:53 GMT
#31
lol here is a freebee for all the compeeting "poets"

Four trolling nerds
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Qwertify
Profile Joined September 2008
United States2531 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 21:11:37
December 15 2009 21:10 GMT
#32
On December 16 2009 05:44 Aim Here wrote:
On the sixth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me

Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.


On the seventh day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me,

Eight pointless topics
Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming trolls
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.
CJ Entusman #24
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 15 2009 23:28 GMT
#33
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107948

So far, despite Archers best efforts to the contrary, i would call this thread a fail.

Dont you realize that blizzard may be reading this? Instead of posting your own silly lines, please respond to the idea being presented. I hate it when people dont take legitimate ideas seriously.

Your last point about the terrans having orbital support makes a lot of sense, but I wonder if this specific trait should be more geared towards protoss, who have historically relied on their fleets for support?

Although if you want to talk about remote mining, protoss should get a mineral warp and zerg could do some cool nydus worm thingy where they dig a tunnel to the minerals or something.

And if they have macro mechanics, why dont they bring back anti-macro mechanics? Like the overlord mineral block that they had earlier in which the overlord would drop something on a mineral chunk that would prevent it from being mined.

Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 23:42:55
December 15 2009 23:34 GMT
#34

On December 16 2009 08:28 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107948

And if they have macro mechanics, why dont they bring back anti-macro mechanics? Like the overlord mineral block that they had earlier in which the overlord would drop something on a mineral chunk that would prevent it from being mined.





Muwahahaha I think youll like day 7

Do me a favor. Go back and read day one.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 15 2009 23:39 GMT
#35
Ok... if you get a herd of these guys they can take out... what? 4 mineral patches?

(Assuming 50 energy per MULE, 200 energy in an OC....)

And if youre suggesting calling these down in someone else's mineral line, prepare to lose 200 energy worth of MULES

The overlord mechanic was permanent and had to be destroyed before you could mine there.
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-15 23:46:52
December 15 2009 23:43 GMT
#36
On December 16 2009 08:28 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
Your last point about the terrans having orbital support makes a lot of sense, but I wonder if this specific trait should be more geared towards protoss, who have historically relied on their fleets for support?

Although if you want to talk about remote mining, protoss should get a mineral warp and zerg could do some cool nydus worm thingy where they dig a tunnel to the minerals or something.


This point has been brought up before and I think I see it slightly different. I would rather make the expanding race really good at expanding than give all the races a different way to expand. I like the idea of Protoss being the race thats hard to expand with and terran being much more mobile and dynamic with expansions. I feel its is good racial diverisity. Additionally I feel it makes the ability to remotely expand feel more special, powerful and fun.


On December 16 2009 08:39 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
Ok... if you get a herd of these guys they can take out... what? 4 mineral patches?

(Assuming 50 energy per MULE, 200 energy in an OC....)

And if youre suggesting calling these down in someone else's mineral line, prepare to lose 200 energy worth of MULES

The overlord mechanic was permanent and had to be destroyed before you could mine there.



In the right circumstances it is a very powerful ability. Especially if your opponent is almost mined out of his avalible bases and you can afford to sacrifice the minerals. It can also be used to pull your enemy back to his base and if the MULE is allowed to harvest the enemys mineral uninterpurted then you get the minerals. Not even overlord creep patches did that :p
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 16 2009 00:59 GMT
#37
On December 16 2009 06:10 Qwertify wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2009 05:44 Aim Here wrote:
On the sixth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me

Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming buttholes
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.


On the seventh day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me,

Eight pointless topics
Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming trolls
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaand new M.U.L.E.


Okay I'ma contribute both a line for the fansong and the discussion

On the ninth day of Christmas TL Forums gave to me,

Nine theories craftin'
Eight pointless topics
Seven cheats a-busin'
Six mods a-closin'
Fiiiiiiiive golden probes
Four flaming trolls
Three debating geeks
Two raging nerds
And a braaaaaaaand new M.U.L.E.

And the MULE, could it be used as a more durable scout?

Bear with me here.

Right now we send SCVs or whatever you have to scout and see what's up with the other dude. Could the MULE guarantee us a limited view of what the enemy is making based on how many people he has on minerals and gas?
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
danieldrsa
Profile Joined June 2008
Brazil522 Posts
December 16 2009 13:14 GMT
#38
dont get me wrong Archer,
you contribute and in general i like your posts/ideas

But you got it too over to your head after that blue post
Dont think you are more than you really is. Remember humility is essential too.

Having said that, keep having ideas.
-*-
Tdelamay
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada548 Posts
December 16 2009 13:23 GMT
#39
I like Arche's idea of a remote MULE, expecially with the gathering process.
This means the enemy has a big advantage at trying to snipe the over-confident MULE. This would add some thrilling action to shoutcasts.

MUUUUUUUUle!!! X_X
This road isn't leading anywhere...
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 16 2009 14:05 GMT
#40
On December 16 2009 22:14 danieldrsa wrote:
dont get me wrong Archer,
you contribute and in general i like your posts/ideas

But you got it too over to your head after that blue post
Dont think you are more than you really is. Remember humility is essential too.

Having said that, keep having ideas.



Hey thanks for posting. Could you elaborate because I really think people are missinterpreting all that I am about.

For instance i started a thread about protoss gas mechanics and referenced that blizzard was interested in the thread. But I think people took that to mean I thought Blizzard was putting my ideas in the game and I was rubbing it in people faces. I am confused how people could arrive at that thought line.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
December 16 2009 16:50 GMT
#41
Probably you chose words that, in a different tone, could mean something completely different. It's the miracle of text communication.

As for your idea, I wonder a little about how it would work with island expos available allowing for pretty safe muling once you got to air tech.

Also, what exactly is preventing you from summoning mules in your own bases? And if you disallow that, (that is, you couldn't mule your own bases at all) Terrans would effectively not have a macro mechanic late game, unless it consisted of summoning a million mules at their opponent's expos.

Thus it runs kind of opposite of the protoss and zerg mechanics. Whereas the protoss and zerg mechanics get more difficult to manage as you increase in your number of mining bases, Terrans at some point will flatline if they lose control of their last open expand. Which, by the way, also prevents them from getting gas at that last expansion.

I dunno, it's interesting. I'd have to see how it played out.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 16 2009 17:17 GMT
#42
What if MULES could mine gas?
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 16 2009 17:23 GMT
#43
On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote:
As for your idea, I wonder a little about how it would work with island expos available allowing for pretty safe muling once you got to air tech.


Yes you could remote mine MULEs from a island expo. One strategy would be to float a building over to give you vision.

On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote:
Also, what exactly is preventing you from summoning mules in your own bases?.


Nothing, if you want to mine safely you should call down MULEs in your base. If you want gold minerals or to extend the life time of the mineral in your base then you might want to call down outside of the base.


On December 17 2009 01:50 phyvo wrote:
Thus it runs kind of opposite of the protoss and zerg mechanics. Whereas the protoss and zerg mechanics get more difficult to manage as you increase in your number of mining bases, Terrans at some point will flatline if they lose control of their last open expand.


You would still be able to call down MULEs on mineral lines you control just like you can now.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-16 20:58:26
December 16 2009 20:56 GMT
#44
On the fifth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Finally, good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 16 2009 23:19 GMT
#45
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.


This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 16 2009 23:25 GMT
#46
On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.


This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.



Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
TestSubject893
Profile Joined September 2009
United States774 Posts
December 16 2009 23:35 GMT
#47
On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.


This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.



Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?


Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 16 2009 23:44 GMT
#48
On December 17 2009 08:35 TestSubject893 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.


This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.



Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?


Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE.

which would they be more willing to risk

a 400 mineral building or a unit with 30 seconds timed life anyway
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 17 2009 03:04 GMT
#49
4 units with 30 seconds if maxed out in energy as i know people will be
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 17 2009 11:46 GMT
#50
On December 17 2009 08:35 TestSubject893 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2009 08:25 Archerofaiur wrote:
On December 17 2009 08:19 Qikz wrote:
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.


This is sadly too true. As a new player I can confirm that it is sometimes awkward to get myself to leave my own base since I have no idea if I'm walking into a trap. It's getting better though as I play more.



Do you think being able to remotely mine with a MULE could help teach you how to take expansions?


Even if you cold remotely mine with a MULE, new players would not use it to do so for the same reasons that they have trouble leaving their base now. They are afraid of what could be there waiting to kill their units. They don't want to lose units, which in this case is their MULE.


Well as I've been playing more I've learnt when to expand. But it's just the thing of some players arte genuinly worried about stepping out of their choke because they don't know what's there.

The scanners help with that though. I mean the main thing with the Mule is it makes Flash style powering builds a hell of a lot easier due to the fact you can mega turtle and remote mine every once in a while. When you have the power to push out you just fly a CC over there and take it that way.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 17 2009 22:26 GMT
#51

[image loading]



On the sixth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-17 22:34:42
December 17 2009 22:31 GMT
#52
nvm its brilliant

The song that has come from this thread not the mule ideas.

Edited because "I'm wrong!"
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-17 22:35:11
December 17 2009 22:32 GMT
#53
On December 18 2009 07:31 Synwave wrote:
Maybe the horrid doodle art where you argue everyone that has an opposing view? Or...oh wait thats every thread you start. Lesson: don't disagree with archer in his threads, he feeds on it.


Your wrong!


On December 18 2009 07:31 Synwave wrote:
nvm its brilliant

The song that has come from this thread not the mule ideas.




What dont you like about Remote Mining MULEs again?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
December 17 2009 22:35 GMT
#54
Your tone.
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 17 2009 22:36 GMT
#55
That doesnt sound like a Remote Mining MULE problem.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 17 2009 23:21 GMT
#56
I can see this getting shut down by zerg fairly easily. I mean, two lings at any expo will stop MULES from mining there. You would have to bring out your forces to protect them. And then it just turns into a regular expansion where you cant expand until you have enough forces to defend it.

So basically you would end up calling down MULES in friendly territory, and you would do that with the current MULES anyways. I guess its an extra option though.
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-17 23:29:13
December 17 2009 23:28 GMT
#57
On December 18 2009 08:21 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
I can see this getting shut down by zerg fairly easily. I mean, two lings at any expo will stop MULES from mining there. You would have to bring out your forces to protect them. And then it just turns into a regular expansion where you cant expand until you have enough forces to defend it.

So basically you would end up calling down MULES in friendly territory, and you would do that with the current MULES anyways. I guess its an extra option though.


Coincidentaly the same thing also applys to terran sending an SCV to make an expo. So why doesnt a zerg player send two zerglings to all expansions every game?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-18 00:00:20
December 17 2009 23:57 GMT
#58
I find I win more often bit when I lett the enemy establish expansions before destroying them. Just killing a worker heading out to create a base only lowers your enemys ecconomy by 25 as oppose to 400+ when they have established the base and maybe even made a few more workers.

This is not true of the MULE tho. Having a ling or two near each expo could prevent quite a bit of funds being generated by the enemy.

Edit: I am really liking the format of your latest Theorycrafting tho Archer. A lot of these types of articles can just become one persons idea followed by a lot of arguing. The way you are dividing this idea into your 12 steps and adding to the concept each time without too much debate in between is really giving the topic a different tone to some of your other articles.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
December 17 2009 23:59 GMT
#59
On December 17 2009 02:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
What if MULES could mine gas?

Isn't this a big thing in WC3? Undead iirc can mine gold without being at their base. Please god keep sc2 as far away from wc3 as you can.
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-18 00:05:28
December 18 2009 00:04 GMT
#60
On December 18 2009 08:59 0mgVitaminE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2009 02:17 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
What if MULES could mine gas?

Isn't this a big thing in WC3? Undead iirc can mine gold without being at their base. Please god keep sc2 as far away from wc3 as you can.



There is one in every thread.





Oh and thank you Decoup. Let us know more of what you think about this idea.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 18 2009 00:46 GMT
#61
Well, when people expand, usually they expand near themselves, so they are within the protective envelope of their army, or if they do a hidden expo, the zerg isnt expecting it anyways.

But often they do put lings at each expo, lol.
Its actually very annoying sometimes.

I also approve of the format for this thread. Very original. :D
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
phyvo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5635 Posts
December 18 2009 05:45 GMT
#62
I only dislike remote mining more now.

It seems hard to stop. Zerg would obviously have it the easiest, but then it devolves into what Knee of Justice said: a free expansion that takes no time to set up and can't be destroyed. Moreover, if your free mineral expansion area is taken then your just continue mining at the same rate and mule your own bases. Your economy (read: income) isn't even dented in the slightest, and you can start pulling mules when you see your "expo" in danger. Thus, you might not end up losing *anything at all*.

It also wrecks late game balance. Depending on how long the game is remote mining is either completely useless or amazingly useful. Early game, who cares if you're mining the middle? The only time that would matter is if the minerals are high yield, and honestly... that's pretty pathetic considering all the benefits you attribute to it. We don't even know if all maps will even have high yield minerals. Contrast this with late game. Say you just finally secured control over this island expo and have been mined out for awhile. BAM, you're summoning mules and in 30 seconds your coffers are full again, because 4 non-mining bases can translate to 16 mules. Other races would have to wait minutes for their nexus or hatchery to build before they could start mining... and that with workers that aren't free.

In short, remote mining really doesn't do much of anything but make the endgame harder to balance.
"BE A MANGO TO SLEEP LIKE A SNORING TIGER" - Monte
MiraMax
Profile Joined July 2009
Germany532 Posts
December 18 2009 08:30 GMT
#63
I like the idea of remote mining. I think it better fits lore wise plus adds an interesting dimension to the macro mechanic. Just look at Zerg's Spawn Larva. It is interesting, because it can not only be used to boost your economy, but also to faster switch army techs. Likewise the M.U.L.E. could be used aggressively to steal minerals from your opponent. Obviously there needs to be a risk-reward balance, so M.U.L.E.s should be very slow and weak (so that even a drone/probe can eliminate one with two hits).
If this isn't enough, one could change the M.U.L.E.'s mining mechanic to the following: Every M.U.L.E blocks the mineral patch it is mining one. Instead of gradually decreasing the patch it works on a patch until a) it's time runs out or b) the work done is enough to deplete the patch. Only then are minerals deducted from the patch. Like this an opponent,. who destroys a M.U.L.E. before it is finished suffers no consequences at all. It would have the additional twist, that M.U.L.E. handling becomes more challenging overall, since it is best used on unsaturated expansions (which would provide an incentive for remote mining).
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-18 17:38:20
December 18 2009 17:25 GMT
#64
On December 18 2009 17:30 MiraMax wrote:
If this isn't enough, one could change the M.U.L.E.'s mining mechanic to the following: Every M.U.L.E blocks the mineral patch it is mining one. Instead of gradually decreasing the patch it works on a patch until a) it's time runs out or b) the work done is enough to deplete the patch. Only then are minerals deducted from the patch. Like this an opponent,. who destroys a M.U.L.E. before it is finished suffers no consequences at all. It would have the additional twist, that M.U.L.E. handling becomes more challenging overall, since it is best used on unsaturated expansions (which would provide an incentive for remote mining).



I hadnt thought about that but that seems like an option should balance require it. Does anyone know how worker mining works for this? If I have a SCV and it starts mining and I immediatly order it somewhere else will it have some minerals?
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 18 2009 17:30 GMT
#65
So I'm thinking, using a mule to mine out a backdoor like the one in Destination could be done by a mule, and wouldn't it be done faster than with an SCV, so a much better deal if you're contained?
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-18 17:41:08
December 18 2009 17:38 GMT
#66
On December 18 2009 14:45 phyvo wrote:
I only dislike remote mining more now.

It seems hard to stop. Zerg would obviously have it the easiest, but then it devolves into what Knee of Justice said: a free expansion that takes no time to set up and can't be destroyed. Moreover, if your free mineral expansion area is taken then your just continue mining at the same rate and mule your own bases.

Compare with the current MULE which is always called down in the base. Which is easier, killing a MULE undefended at a expo or killing a MULE in a fortified enemy base?



Your economy (read: income) isn't even dented in the slightest, and you can start pulling mules when you see your "expo" in danger. Thus, you might not end up losing *anything at all*.

Whats lost is the potential minerals that you could have gotten from calling down the MULE in your own base.


It also wrecks late game balance.

Game is still in alpha.


Depending on how long the game is remote mining is either completely useless or amazingly useful.

lol I call this goldilocks syndrome. Everything is either massively overpowered or massively underpowered. But never ever ever just right :p


Early game, who cares if you're mining the middle?

Depends what expansion. Is it a expo your going to take, is it an island, is it an enemy expo, will it affect how when or if you expand?


The only time that would matter is if the minerals are high yield,

No. The most often time it will matter is high yield minerals. But not the only.


and honestly... that's pretty pathetic considering all the benefits you attribute to it.

Its funny none of the days so far have even focused on high yield minerals. Did you even read what benefits ive attributed to it so far or is this just an angry rant?

We don't even know if all maps will even have high yield minerals.

lol we dont even know if all maps will have xel naga watch towers, or cliffs or destructable rocks or islands or expansioins.


Contrast this with late game. Say you just finally secured control over this island expo and have been mined out for awhile. BAM, you're summoning mules and in 30 seconds your coffers are full again, because 4 non-mining bases can translate to 16 mules.

Your math is off. 30 seconds translates to 1 MULEs worth of energy. And yes a Remote Mining mechanic does give you remote mining advantages.


Other races would have to wait minutes for their nexus or hatchery to build before they could start mining... and that with workers that aren't free.

Yes. Thats the point.

In short, remote mining really doesn't do much of anything but make the endgame harder to balance.

Dont know where your getting that from. It like your ignoring everything else. And yes new mechanics do require additional balancing. I doubt they dropped warp-in and didnt have to change some things :p
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
[UoN]Sentinel
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States11320 Posts
December 18 2009 17:43 GMT
#67
I think zerg would balance that with their 40 mineral drones, so what the Terran lacks in the first few minutes needs to be made up with mules.
Нас зовет дух отцов, память старых бойцов, дух Москвы и твердыня Полтавы
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-18 18:43:49
December 18 2009 18:43 GMT
#68
[image loading]



On the seventh day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)

Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed player could manually order mineral deposit at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Drakonis
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada97 Posts
December 19 2009 01:47 GMT
#69
A suggestion for game balancing is that MULEs could cost more energy to deploy remotely, say twice the energy for example. So your options could be MULE your own base, or MULE some distant expo at half the income.
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
December 19 2009 02:09 GMT
#70
I love your idea.
DoX.)
Profile Joined December 2008
Singapore6164 Posts
December 19 2009 03:21 GMT
#71
I like this a lot
Burningsquash
Profile Joined December 2009
United States7 Posts
December 19 2009 05:06 GMT
#72
this was the kind of thing that i had in mind for protoss probes, teleporting to an expansion, and mining from there. and the M.U.L.E. is gonna be WAY too good for turtling. you can mine yourself out, and not have to expand somewhere vulnerable that would get killed.
A short psychic that has escaped from prison is a small medium at large.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-19 06:47:27
December 19 2009 06:45 GMT
#73
On December 19 2009 14:06 Burningsquash wrote:
this was the kind of thing that i had in mind for protoss probes, teleporting to an expansion, and mining from there. and the M.U.L.E. is gonna be WAY too good for turtling. you can mine yourself out, and not have to expand somewhere vulnerable that would get killed.


Remote mining while turtling would certainly be advantageous in certain situations. However you wouldnt want to rely on it exclusively for too long as eventually your opponent could take the whole map.

On December 19 2009 11:09 thopol wrote:
I love your idea.


On December 19 2009 12:21 DoX.) wrote:
I like this a lot




Thanks :D
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
December 19 2009 10:12 GMT
#74
Considering that a single unit, or even workers will easily be able to kill a defenseless MULE, I doubt that people will react in some of the ways that you are proposing that they will. Sending their entire army just to kill it, or panicking, doesn't seem too realistic.

But, since this is theorycrafting, i suppose you can have your way.
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
Rufio
Profile Joined December 2009
241 Posts
December 19 2009 15:03 GMT
#75
Really creative thread you've got going there. Thumbs up.
"Rufio Rufio Ru Fi OOOooo" - The Lost Boys
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 19 2009 18:53 GMT
#76
On December 19 2009 19:12 Fontong wrote:
Considering that a single unit, or even workers will easily be able to kill a defenseless MULE, I doubt that people will react in some of the ways that you are proposing that they will. Sending their entire army just to kill it, or panicking, doesn't seem too realistic.



If I was the enemy ordering all the workers to attack the MULEs would probably be the best bet. Course than you could just swing back with your medivac with marine payload >
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
December 19 2009 22:31 GMT
#77
It seems like a lot of people are threatened by change. I mean, that's just the general impression I get. It seems like whenever a new idea pops up, no matter how good it is, there are a lot of people that vehemently oppose it. Now there is nothing wrong with that but it's more helpful if those that oppose something have some good reasons and arguments for why they oppose it.
Flicky
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
England2662 Posts
December 19 2009 23:00 GMT
#78
As interesting as the theorycrafting behind the MULE is here, all this thread has really done for me is make me realise how quickly 7 days has passed.
Liquipedia"I was seriously looking for a black guy" - MrHoon
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-20 02:04:00
December 20 2009 02:01 GMT
#79
On December 19 2009 19:12 Fontong wrote:
Considering that a single unit, or even workers will easily be able to kill a defenseless MULE, I doubt that people will react in some of the ways that you are proposing that they will. Sending their entire army just to kill it, or panicking, doesn't seem too realistic.

But, since this is theorycrafting, i suppose you can have your way.

All you would need to do is send in a couple of hellions or other units to econ harass to force the player to retreat his probes, then perform the mule drop. Sending the whole army might be a valid option depending on the units chosen for the mineral harass during the mule mineral theft too.

@Archer. I like where you are going with the concept of offensive mining. It would be great if one race could perform offensive gas mining as an alternative to your offensive mule mining. They don't even need the capacity to recieve the gas they mine. Just lowering their gas count is crippling enough once starvation kicks in. The third race could even be given an ability which does not steal or destroy minerals or gas like the first two, but lowers the mineral/gas the workers harvest by 1 for a duration. Kind of like an anti-proton charge. The mineral steal and gas destruction would effect the enemy in the late game, while the anti-proton would effect them almost instantly, but have no actual bearing on lategame play (actually, it could make their resources last longer, so you would need to take advantage of the lowered income at the time before starvation turns your double edge blade back on you).

Edit: Even if they don't modify the Mule for this purpose. It would be quite interesting to add this as a second set of offensive macro mechanics.
1) Allows mining of enemy mineral lines (used while distracting probes with a harass or on unclaimed expansions)
2) Allows destruction of enemy gas (only works on gas which has a refinery already on it), to lower the total gas remaining but does not give the destroyed gas to you.
3) Lowers the minerals and gas collected by effected enemy probes by 1 per trip.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 20 2009 02:42 GMT
#80
[image loading]



On the eight day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed the MULE could be manually order to drop minerals off at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5540 Posts
December 20 2009 09:02 GMT
#81
DeCoup, maybe instead of resource gathering impeding they could reintroduce unit production impeding - i.e. the Zerg Infestation mechanic.

Terran - offensive M.U.L.E'ing
Protoss - gas theft (potentially on the Distruptor)
Zerg - Infestation - shuts down the building, produces a little creep around it, and spawns couple Larvas!
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 20 2009 17:27 GMT
#82
On December 20 2009 18:02 maybenexttime wrote:
DeCoup, maybe instead of resource gathering impeding they could reintroduce unit production impeding - i.e. the Zerg Infestation mechanic.



The game already has many unit production mechanics. Starcraft 2 needs economic depth.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Deviation
Profile Joined November 2009
United States134 Posts
December 20 2009 20:24 GMT
#83
I'm really digging the offensive macro mechanic usage. Being that it's mineral theft makes it a bit more interesting than standard economic harass. Keep up the good work.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-21 05:11:06
December 21 2009 04:46 GMT
#84


[image loading]



On the ninth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Design necromancing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Part of my goal in theorycrafting an improved MULE was to bring the MULE “back from the dead”. Put frankely, its not good gameplay to have things constantly dieing in the player's base. I understand why the MULE has a timed lifespan but it leaves a bad taste in the players mouth. To make matters worse macro is about building up your base and making your army bigger. Having players witness their assets fall apart every 30 seconds is the antithesis of the gameplay style you are trying to promote! It gives players unnessisisary bad feelings and deminishes their enjoyment of macroing.

I remember when the MULE first came out. One of the biggest things to catch people eye was that it didnt fit well to have a robot you call down from space that just runs out of batteries and dies. It didnt seem logical or economical for Terrans to invest that kind of money in a mining machine only to give it AAA batteries. Maybe if we used the cold fusion for more then just chilling beer

Now Starcraft 2 is certainly allowed to bend the limits of disbelief. For instance, timed life units falling apart is fine for the Nighthawk's turrets. But why have a unit as prominent and important as the MULE fall apart? Especfially when it fits so poorly for the unit's role and there are alternative and cooler ways of ending the unit's life. At the end of its timed life a Remote Mining MULE would transform into a atomospheric escape pods and launch back into space. The lore would be that MULE needs to return to the orbiting space station for refueling, maintenance and processing of its minerals payload. Not only does this enhance the units charector, it also draws from portrayals of space mining in literature and movies.

In addition to being a less awkward lore explaination, there are actual gameplay benefits to having the MULE fly back up to space when it finishes its tour. Consider what happens with the current version of the MULE if your timing is slightly off. Currently if you misdirrect the MULE or order it to do something and its rhythm gets thrown off then that 2 second delay could mean the MULE dies right before returning its last batch of minerals to the CC. Over the course of the game these failed trips could add up to allot of lost minerals. And that’s assuming that the current timing always has the MULE dying after dropping off its last mienrals. For all we know it could be that MULEs never finish mining and always drop their last shipment. To complicate matters further some minerals patches could be set further back from the CC which could also mean that the MULEs last trip will be terminated prematurely. It is extremely bad for player enjoyment to lose minerals just because the MULEs cycle happened to be thrown slightly off.

Even if the developers dont want a Remote Mining MULE, I would hope they would at least consider making the MULE transform back into a rocket pod. Launching back into space gives a much better impression than just running out of batteries and falling apart.


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed the MULE could be manually order to drop minerals off at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 21 2009 22:07 GMT
#85


[image loading]



On the tenth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Many rewards of reaping,
+ Show Spoiler +
As Dustin said in the recent TL interview* the purpose of the new macro mechanics is to promote macro playstyles. A Remote Mining MULE promotes a macro oriented playstyle in several ways. Like the current version of the MULE it requires the player to target the mineral location they want to drop the MULE. This means that players who are in their base macroing will be in a better position to use the ability. Players who are micromanaging thier battles will not often be viewing bases or unoccupied expansions where they can dropMULEs.

A Remote Mining MULE promotes a Macro thinking style. Players can develop large scale strategys for how to secure an economic advantage. An example of this long term planning would be which expansions to drop MULEs at and when as the game progress. This can be an strategy "game plan" much like build orders are.

Remote Mining also serve as a tactical manuever that macro players can get better at. This is similar to a storm/reaver/vulture drop manuver. It is an extra task that draws players attention and view to a different part of the mape. Successful completion of this manuver results in economic advantage.

*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107013


Design necromancing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Part of my goal in theorycrafting an improved MULE was to bring the MULE “back from the dead”. Put frankely, its not good gameplay to have things constantly dieing in the player's base. I understand why the MULE has a timed lifespan but it leaves a bad taste in the players mouth. To make matters worse macro is about building up your base and making your army bigger. Having players witness their assets fall apart every 30 seconds is the antithesis of the gameplay style you are trying to promote! It gives players unnessisisary bad feelings and deminishes their enjoyment of macroing.

I remember when the MULE first came out. One of the biggest things to catch people eye was that it didnt fit well to have a robot you call down from space that just runs out of batteries and dies. It didnt seem logical or economical for Terrans to invest that kind of money in a mining machine only to give it AAA batteries. Maybe if we used the cold fusion for more then just chilling beer

Now Starcraft 2 is certainly allowed to bend the limits of disbelief. For instance, timed life units falling apart is fine for the Nighthawk's turrets. But why have a unit as prominent and important as the MULE fall apart? Especfially when it fits so poorly for the unit's role and there are alternative and cooler ways of ending the unit's life. At the end of its timed life a Remote Mining MULE would transform into a atomospheric escape pods and launch back into space. The lore would be that MULE needs to return to the orbiting space station for refueling, maintenance and processing of its minerals payload. Not only does this enhance the units charector, it also draws from portrayals of space mining in literature and movies.

In addition to being a less awkward lore explaination, there are actual gameplay benefits to having the MULE fly back up to space when it finishes its tour. Consider what happens with the current version of the MULE if your timing is slightly off. Currently if you misdirrect the MULE or order it to do something and its rhythm gets thrown off then that 2 second delay could mean the MULE dies right before returning its last batch of minerals to the CC. Over the course of the game these failed trips could add up to allot of lost minerals. And that’s assuming that the current timing always has the MULE dying after dropping off its last mienrals. For all we know it could be that MULEs never finish mining and always drop their last shipment. To complicate matters further some minerals patches could be set further back from the CC which could also mean that the MULEs last trip will be terminated prematurely. It is extremely bad for player enjoyment to lose minerals just because the MULEs cycle happened to be thrown slightly off.

Even if the developers dont want a Remote Mining MULE, I would hope they would at least consider making the MULE transform back into a rocket pod. Launching back into space gives a much better impression than just running out of batteries and falling apart.


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed the MULE could be manually order to drop minerals off at a Command Center. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-23 01:42:22
December 23 2009 01:36 GMT
#86
[image loading]



On the eleventh day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Clever worker sniping,
+ Show Spoiler +
Remote Mining MULEs add dynamic choices and interesting gameplay to worker sniping. Remote Mining MULEs would have the ability to manually launch into the sky early. The minerals a MULE harvested are not deposited into your base until the MULE returns to the sky for processing. A player would be able to order a MULE to launch into the sky before its timed life is up. This is a cash out technique that locks in the profits. The main reason players would want to do this is if the MULE is in danger.

Lets say you are calling down MULEs to your base mineral line. All the sudden Mutalisks appear above your worker line. You now have a series of decisions to make:
Do you select all your workers and order them away first?
Do you select your MULEs and get them to launch first?
Since the MULEs are slower than SCVs will the enemy be able to pick them off?
Should I retreat the MULEs to a safe location and then order them to launch?
Can you select the MULEs from a group of workers fast and give them another order like launch?

Now lets look at the new decisions that the enemy player has for harrasing this worker line. He knows that in a couple of seconds the MULE will transform into an Escape Pod and rocket into the sky. While the MULE is transforming into a Escape Pod it is immobile and completly vulnerable. If the zerg player sees the MULEs drop down than he knows that 30 seconds later that MULE will be forced to transfrom into an Excape Pod. The enemy may pounce at this time to rob the Terran player of many minerals.

Manual launching also give Terrans some level of excape if they call down MULEs at a remote location and then recognize that their is nearby danger. If you see that the enemy army is moving towards your MULEs you can order them to abort mining and save the minerals you have earned. However, since the MULEs have a significant transforming time the enemy can still catch the MULEs before they escape. Players may also want to manually launch all thier MULEs if they absolutly need more minerals right now. The sacrifice is that you are losing the entire mineral potential that you would have recieved had you allowed the MULE to mining its entire duration. More minerals sooner at the cost of less minerals overall.


Many rewards of reaping,
+ Show Spoiler +
As Dustin said in the recent TL interview* the purpose of the new macro mechanics is to promote macro playstyles. A Remote Mining MULE promotes a macro oriented playstyle in several ways. Like the current version of the MULE it requires the player to target the mineral location they want to drop the MULE. This means that players who are in their base macroing will be in a better position to use the ability. Players who are micromanaging thier battles will not often be viewing bases or unoccupied expansions where they can dropMULEs.

A Remote Mining MULE promotes a Macro thinking style. Players can develop large scale strategys for how to secure an economic advantage. An example of this long term planning would be which expansions to drop MULEs at and when as the game progress. This can be an strategy "game plan" much like build orders are.

Remote Mining also serve as a tactical manuever that macro players can get better at. This is similar to a storm/reaver/vulture drop manuver. It is an extra task that draws players attention and view to a different part of the mape. Successful completion of this manuver results in economic advantage.

*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107013


Design necromancing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Part of my goal in theorycrafting an improved MULE was to bring the MULE “back from the dead”. Put frankely, its not good gameplay to have things constantly dieing in the player's base. I understand why the MULE has a timed lifespan but it leaves a bad taste in the players mouth. To make matters worse macro is about building up your base and making your army bigger. Having players witness their assets fall apart every 30 seconds is the antithesis of the gameplay style you are trying to promote! It gives players unnessisisary bad feelings and deminishes their enjoyment of macroing.

I remember when the MULE first came out. One of the biggest things to catch people eye was that it didnt fit well to have a robot you call down from space that just runs out of batteries and dies. It didnt seem logical or economical for Terrans to invest that kind of money in a mining machine only to give it AAA batteries. Maybe if we used the cold fusion for more then just chilling beer

Now Starcraft 2 is certainly allowed to bend the limits of disbelief. For instance, timed life units falling apart is fine for the Nighthawk's turrets. But why have a unit as prominent and important as the MULE fall apart? Especfially when it fits so poorly for the unit's role and there are alternative and cooler ways of ending the unit's life. At the end of its timed life a Remote Mining MULE would transform into a atomospheric escape pods and launch back into space. The lore would be that MULE needs to return to the orbiting space station for refueling, maintenance and processing of its minerals payload. Not only does this enhance the units charector, it also draws from portrayals of space mining in literature and movies.

In addition to being a less awkward lore explaination, there are actual gameplay benefits to having the MULE fly back up to space when it finishes its tour. Consider what happens with the current version of the MULE if your timing is slightly off. Currently if you misdirrect the MULE or order it to do something and its rhythm gets thrown off then that 2 second delay could mean the MULE dies right before returning its last batch of minerals to the CC. Over the course of the game these failed trips could add up to allot of lost minerals. And that’s assuming that the current timing always has the MULE dying after dropping off its last mienrals. For all we know it could be that MULEs never finish mining and always drop their last shipment. To complicate matters further some minerals patches could be set further back from the CC which could also mean that the MULEs last trip will be terminated prematurely. It is extremely bad for player enjoyment to lose minerals just because the MULEs cycle happened to be thrown slightly off.

Even if the developers dont want a Remote Mining MULE, I would hope they would at least consider making the MULE transform back into a rocket pod. Launching back into space gives a much better impression than just running out of batteries and falling apart.


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. If needed the MULE could be manually order to launch into space early to lock in the mineral profit. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Synwave
Profile Joined July 2009
United States2803 Posts
December 23 2009 05:02 GMT
#87
Ive picked on you a bit archer its true but I must say your idea of worker sniping is awesome. One of my favorite aspects of any RTS is the decision to be offensive and force your opponent into scrambling defenses and worry about worker loss or being a defensive player and knowing your workers are protected. Any strategy that involves lines of supply and disrupting them is what really adds to the tactical level of the engagement. Kudos
♞Nerdrage is the cause of global warming♞
Tdelamay
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada548 Posts
December 23 2009 21:03 GMT
#88
One thing that bothers me is that terran and somewhat protoss lose potential from selective sniping of workers. Terran will be losing MULE and Protoss proton charged probes, what important gatherer can zergs lose?

I suppose the queen would be an interesting unit to snipe, but it seems much more resistant than MULE and proton charged probes. If the MULE becomes such an economical asset for the Terran, will it also become the Achile's heel?
This road isn't leading anywhere...
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-23 22:35:51
December 23 2009 21:35 GMT
#89
Different does not equal bad. It ok for one race to have different harassment than the others.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
December 24 2009 00:30 GMT
#90
The thing about a queen having more health and being more resiliant than a proton charged probe and mule is down to the fact. To snipe a few probes you are doing damage to more enemies. Where as if you focus fire a queen it'll probably take about the same amount of damage as you did to the five probes/mules anyways.

Plus unlike the Mule and the Probe the queen is vital to the zerg as it gives them more larvae to reinforce their army or get more drones.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
GW.Methos
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States249 Posts
December 24 2009 00:32 GMT
#91
love the mule in the santa hat
i.pwn.n00bs
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
December 24 2009 00:43 GMT
#92
I love the concept and by-products of the remote mining system. But if it is to be given to just once race, do you feel that a remote mining system would be more appropriate for the Terran, who rely so hevily on fortification and holding position (tank, raiseable barracks, sensor tower etc) or would this mechanic better suit the Protoss? The Protoss currently have arguable even less targeting based decision making and less energy tension with their existing (which we know is being change but not to what end atm) macro mechanic?
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 24 2009 19:51 GMT
#93

[image loading]



On the twelth day of Christmas, Blizzard gave to me,


Well done and stunning,
+ Show Spoiler +
I want to talk about something I think has been undervalued in all the macro debate. This is Presentation and Perception. But first I want describe something I have seen with new players. New players naturally gravitate towards micro oriented play styles. There are many reasons for this but I think that one of the biggest has to do with what I call visual presentation. Simply put explosions and lazers are alot more interesting to look at then workers mining. Obviously you never want players just sitting their watching animations but visual displays greatly impact enjoyment and engagement.

One of best pieces of advise to teach new players how to macro better is to tell them to stop watching their battles. This is hard because battles have that movie expeirence which is part of the reason we play Starcraft. And yet Starcraft is not just about watching battles, there is also a production and economic side of gameplay with its own benefits, playstyles, values and enriching experiences. Now building up your base will never look as spectacular as a zergling swarm heading straight into a siege tank line. But you can make base construction and management visually stimulating and in doing so help new players to develop macro playstyles. Add alittle movie magic to macro.

For a Remote Mining MULE the dropping, relaunching and gathering animations all have great potential. In the few shaky cam footage we have seen the drop pods are one of the coolest things to see falling. A Atmospheric Escape Pod rocketing into the sky would be equally impressive as would an mining animation where the MULE turbo grinds minerals into a mouth shaped like a bore drill. But the animation that I feel has the biggest potential for in base "eye candy" is transforming. Transforming robots are always cool. Plus they are a main Terran theme.

Imagine the drop pod falling to the ground, it lays still for a moment with smoke still rising from the crater below. Suddenly, its outer covering begins to turn and shift. Whirling parts are exposed inside. Two arms are assembled and push the Drop Pod off the ground and into a upright position. Further shifitng reforms Drop Pod thrusters into the MULE's rear propulsion device. Upon completion of mining dutyies the MULE packs itself into a lift off device and rockets to the sky. These things all add visual presentation to macroing. This inturn gives the perception that the base is alive. That you are an active participant in a dynamic mobilization of combat forces and that it is your hand that moves the cogs of war.


Clever worker sniping,
+ Show Spoiler +
Remote Mining MULEs add dynamic choices and interesting gameplay to worker sniping. Remote Mining MULEs would have the ability to manually launch into the sky early. The minerals a MULE harvested are not deposited into your base until the MULE returns to the sky for processing. A player would be able to order a MULE to launch into the sky before its timed life is up. This is a cash out technique that locks in the profits. The main reason players would want to do this is if the MULE is in danger.

Lets say you are calling down MULEs to your base mineral line. All the sudden Mutalisks appear above your worker line. You now have a series of decisions to make:
Do you select all your workers and order them away first?
Do you select your MULEs and get them to launch first?
Since the MULEs are slower than SCVs will the enemy be able to pick them off?
Should I retreat the MULEs to a safe location and then order them to launch?
Can you select the MULEs from a group of workers fast and give them another order like launch?

Now lets look at the new decisions that the enemy player has for harrasing this worker line. He knows that in a couple of seconds the MULE will transform into an Escape Pod and rocket into the sky. While the MULE is transforming into a Escape Pod it is immobile and completly vulnerable. If the zerg player sees the MULEs drop down than he knows that 30 seconds later that MULE will be forced to transfrom into an Excape Pod. The enemy may pounce at this time to rob the Terran player of many minerals.

Manual launching also give Terrans some level of excape if they call down MULEs at a remote location and then recognize that their is nearby danger. If you see that the enemy army is moving towards your MULEs you can order them to abort mining and save the minerals you have earned. However, since the MULEs have a significant transforming time the enemy can still catch the MULEs before they escape. Players may also want to manually launch all thier MULEs if they absolutly need more minerals right now. The sacrifice is that you are losing the entire mineral potential that you would have recieved had you allowed the MULE to mining its entire duration. More minerals sooner at the cost of less minerals overall.


Many rewards of reaping,
+ Show Spoiler +
As Dustin said in the recent TL interview* the purpose of the new macro mechanics is to promote macro playstyles. A Remote Mining MULE promotes a macro oriented playstyle in several ways. Like the current version of the MULE it requires the player to target the mineral location they want to drop the MULE. This means that players who are in their base macroing will be in a better position to use the ability. Players who are micromanaging thier battles will not often be viewing bases or unoccupied expansions where they can dropMULEs.

A Remote Mining MULE promotes a Macro thinking style. Players can develop large scale strategys for how to secure an economic advantage. An example of this long term planning would be which expansions to drop MULEs at and when as the game progress. This can be an strategy "game plan" much like build orders are.

Remote Mining also serve as a tactical manuever that macro players can get better at. This is similar to a storm/reaver/vulture drop manuver. It is an extra task that draws players attention and view to a different part of the mape. Successful completion of this manuver results in economic advantage.

*http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=107013


Design necromancing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Part of my goal in theorycrafting an improved MULE was to bring the MULE “back from the dead”. Put frankely, its not good gameplay to have things constantly dieing in the player's base. I understand why the MULE has a timed lifespan but it leaves a bad taste in the players mouth. To make matters worse macro is about building up your base and making your army bigger. Having players witness their assets fall apart every 30 seconds is the antithesis of the gameplay style you are trying to promote! It gives players unnessisisary bad feelings and deminishes their enjoyment of macroing.

I remember when the MULE first came out. One of the biggest things to catch people eye was that it didnt fit well to have a robot you call down from space that just runs out of batteries and dies. It didnt seem logical or economical for Terrans to invest that kind of money in a mining machine only to give it AAA batteries. Maybe if we used the cold fusion for more then just chilling beer

Now Starcraft 2 is certainly allowed to bend the limits of disbelief. For instance, timed life units falling apart is fine for the Nighthawk's turrets. But why have a unit as prominent and important as the MULE fall apart? Especfially when it fits so poorly for the unit's role and there are alternative and cooler ways of ending the unit's life. At the end of its timed life a Remote Mining MULE would transform into a atomospheric escape pods and launch back into space. The lore would be that MULE needs to return to the orbiting space station for refueling, maintenance and processing of its minerals payload. Not only does this enhance the units charector, it also draws from portrayals of space mining in literature and movies.

In addition to being a less awkward lore explaination, there are actual gameplay benefits to having the MULE fly back up to space when it finishes its tour. Consider what happens with the current version of the MULE if your timing is slightly off. Currently if you misdirrect the MULE or order it to do something and its rhythm gets thrown off then that 2 second delay could mean the MULE dies right before returning its last batch of minerals to the CC. Over the course of the game these failed trips could add up to allot of lost minerals. And that’s assuming that the current timing always has the MULE dying after dropping off its last mienrals. For all we know it could be that MULEs never finish mining and always drop their last shipment. To complicate matters further some minerals patches could be set further back from the CC which could also mean that the MULEs last trip will be terminated prematurely. It is extremely bad for player enjoyment to lose minerals just because the MULEs cycle happened to be thrown slightly off.

Even if the developers dont want a Remote Mining MULE, I would hope they would at least consider making the MULE transform back into a rocket pod. Launching back into space gives a much better impression than just running out of batteries and falling apart.


Great decision making,
+ Show Spoiler +
Calling down a Remote Mining MULE involves better decision making then the current version of MULEs. This is because the ability to mine remotely gives different profit and risk considerations for each mineral line. Dropping MULEs in the home base has the lowest risk but also the lowest profit. MULEs aiding your controled mineral lines have your base defences for protection. However, their accelerated mining will speed up the depletion of your base and hasten the point at which you need to expand. Despite this pressure controlled mineral lines will still be the most often target for calling down MULEs.

Dropping MULEs on expansions outside of your base allows you to harvest minerals without speeding up the timer on mineral fields you control. Therefore this type of mining is appropriate when you have map control or a contain. Mining from mineral lines you dont control yet are also useful when the enemy is harassing your base mineral line. Mineral lines on islands or behind destructable rocks have less risk and also wont deplete your base mineral lines.

Dropping MULEs at mineral lines on your enemies side of the map is even more risky then dropping on your side of the map. However it has the added benefit of decreasing minerals that your enemy can claim later in the game. Taking mineral lines that the enemy will eventually claim is like stealing from them in the future. This is especially practical when you have a contain or when you want to draw enemies away from your base. Dropping MULEs on mineral lines your opponent currently controls certainly carries the highest amount of risk. But any minerals taken count double. First your are depriving the enemy of minerals and second you are recieving those minerals provided the enemy does not destroy the MULE first.

Finally, we have the ability to drop MULEs on high yield yellow mineral lines. This nets you the forty percent more minerals than MULEs called down at a regular mineral line. However, the enemy also knows these will be the most attractive target. Remote Mining MULEs create interesting decision making for both the Terran and the opponent. For instance, opponents may try to continually scout yellow minerals lines. Alternatively opponents may wait for Terrans to drop MULEs and then pounce on them before they can complete their gathering.


Sever funds for winning,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking great. Your opponent is almost mined out of his last two expansions. Hes trying to take the middle high yield but if you can starve him first you’ll win the game.

You load up a medivac and head to his first expansion. As the medivac passes over you call down two MULEs on his crumbling mineral line. The enemy retreats his workers from the medivac as the MULE go to work on the minerals. The MULEs cut through his remaining minerals replenishing your coffers. The enemy workers return but find that the MULEs are now blocking them from mining their own minerals. The enemy immediately pulls his army from the middle island and towards his first expo. You fly the medivac over his second expansion dropping 3 more MULEs. The enemy frantically sends some forces to his second expo. They arrive just as you land your medivac in his main and begin taking out his production buildings. GG!!!!!!

Remote Mining MULEs allow for something never seen before in Starcraft, offensive mining. This is you directly stealing the enemy’s minerals for your coffers while preventing his workers from mining. Like worker harass this serves as an intersection between the games economic and combat facets.


Tricky game playing,
+ Show Spoiler +
Its late game and things are looking bad. You need to expand and you need to expand right now. The enemy knows if he keeps you from getting minerals the game is his. Suddenly the enemy sees a banshee fly towards the two free expansions in the upper left of the map. He rallys his army to the first base. Sure enough there are two MULEs mining there. He destroys them but knows that you would have had more MULEs avalible. He heads for the other top expansion. Two more MULEs are frantically mining. He laughs as he dispatches them. The game is his. He moves his army back down to the middle of the map and prepares to walk through the front door. It is only then that he notices that you have taken that time to secure two new expansions in the bottom portion of the map. Your gambit has put you back in the game.

In the first segement of my Thesis to Increase Macro* I mentioned the idea of making macro tasks more like a mini game. Mini games are present throughout Starcraft. One example is scourge vs Muta micro. In a similar manner I believe good macro must incorporate a level of mini game fun with unique dynamics and tasks.

Remote Mining MULE’s would create cat and mouse gameplay where the Terran tries to stealthily mine from hidden positions and the enemy tried to hunt down and destroy these MULEs before they completed their mission. It is like playing the Crane game except there is a tiny crane eating monster swimming among all the toys and you have to dodge it and time your crane dropping correctly. There are benefits to targeting each MULEs to a separate hidden position so it is harder for the enemy to kill them all. This is an example of Non-Redundant Targetin.

Additionally, Remote mining MULEs would allow economic harassment to take place at more places then just a player’s mineral line. Raiders and Mutalisk would not lose their usefulness as soon as the enemy put down enough base defense. These and other raiding units could continue scouting unclaimed expansions. For example, in the scenario up above if the enemy had a few raiding units they could have sent those to quickly destroy the MULEs while maintaining pressure on the enemy.

* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78498


Finally good targeting!!!
+ Show Spoiler +
The issue of Redundant Targeting may be the best reason to change the MULE. The following is adapted from my SCLegacy article “Examining the Macro Mechanics.” You can read the full article here
http://sclegacy.com/feature/9-contributor/543-examining-the-macro-mechanics

Redundant Targeting occurs when there is not sufficient decision making in a targeting action. A targeting action is when the game asks you to pick a location or candidate. The game is asking for the player’s positional input because there are various viable locations. It is the player’s task to pick the most appropriate choice. Whether an action has Redundant Targeting depends on the frequency the player changes their target, and not just the presence or absence of other targets.

The current MULE has much Redundant Targeting where the player is calling many MULEs to the same location at once and repeating this action many times. To clarify the player will change the destination. But this will not happen often and when it does happen the destination will apply to all MULEs. If you have a Planetary Fortress you want to drop your MULEs there for added protection. If you control a yellow mineral field you want to drop the MULE there for more minerals.

A Remote Mining MULE increases the frequency with which the desired destination changes. It also increases the number of destinations to choose from. If that was not enough there are certain scenarios (next two days) where players might actually want to send each MULE to a different location. Combined these aspects finally give sufficient reason why the player must clarify the target every time.


More falling birds,
+ Show Spoiler +
Wings of Liberty is an appropriately title for the Terran campaign. The Terrans are birds of war, a highly nomadic race adapt at colonizing, harvesting and departing a planet rapidly. This is represented in one of the major Terran themes: Orbital Support. Where ever there is a major conflict you can be sure there is a Terran armada in high orbit above the planet. Some of the in-game representations include buildings that can lift off, nukes that fall from high orbit and satellite scanner sweeps. Starcraft 2 adds to this with the ability to calldown supplies and mining robots from orbital assets.

If you’ve played Halo Wars or Dawn of War you know how cool it feels to visualize troops and supplies dropping from space. One of my favorite things about Halo Wars was seeing supply ships come down to your base, drop off supplies and fly back up to the orbiting cruiser. It really reinforced the feeling that your buildings and war machines weren’t just appearing out of nowhere. They were being deployed to the planet. Your base was a front line outpost. Remember that first scene in Brood Wars where the marine yells “WHERE IS THE AIR SUPPORT?” That is how playing Terran should feel. You should have the impression that you always have orbital support at your back. That you are part of a larger military operation.

Remote Mining MULEs can help reinforce this Terran theme by portraying planet wide strip mining operations. Like the humans in Deadspace, the Terrans are stripping the planet of its resources from above. Thousands of mining droids are descending to remote parts of the planet to survery and extract valuable ores. These are mining droids originally designed for harvesting deep space asteroids and junk metal from derelict vessels. Having gathered their payload they ascend to the orbiting ship they came from.


Free expands,
+ Show Spoiler +
Gameplay wise the Terran have always been adapt at expanding to new mineral fields. In Starcraft 1 Terrans could lift-off and float a Command Center to a new mineral field. In SC2 the Command Center has gained the ability to transport 4 SCVs during lift-off. Combined with a faster lift-off speed the SC2 Terrans have superior expansion capabilities.

A Remote Mining MULE could transform the Terrans knack for expanding into a racially unique playstyle. Like Zerg's larva managment, remote expansion mining would give Terran commanders a new level of resource management. Playing Terran would mean maximizing mineral intake by maintaining map control. Lift-off and SCV ferrying would then allow Terran players to easily upgrade remote MULE expansions to permanent expansions.


A tool turtlers love,
+ Show Spoiler +
Many new players turtle. Much of this is that they are afraid to leave the base. The fog of war makes the enemy seem everywhere. Something as simple as expanding just outside your doorway seems dangerous. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy as an uncontested enemy expands and contains the new player.

A Remote Mining MULE can help new players overcome this psychological hurdle by showing them that expanding is usually not as hard or dangerous as they think it is. It allows them to put their foot out the door without risking a whole Command Center. As an example they may put a MULE down at a nearby expansion. After a while they learn it is safe to advance their forces to this uncontested area. Finally, seeing that they have secured the area they can begin establishing a new base.

A Remove Mining MULE also serves as an asset for “legitimate” Tutling. These are the great plays that skillfully use timing pushes, chokes, siege tank lines and bunkers to secure victory. Terran are the Turtling race and while this role may be slightly toned down for Starcraft 2 it remains a powerful strategic playstyle. Remote Mining MULEs would allow Turtling players to resist enemy containment by gathering additional resource outside of the base. This provides additional resource flow while the Terran builds up to break out. Additionally, calling down MULE’s on distant parts of the map may force the enemy to divert forces from containment to scouting.


And a brand new M.U.L.E.!
+ Show Spoiler +
Mineral Uptake and Launch Engine (M.U.L.E.)
Step 1: Drop Pod could be called down anywhere the player has vision. This allows MULEs to remotely mine from unoccupied high yield mineral expansions.

Step 2: Drop Pod would tranform into a MULE which would begin mining. It would collect minerals constantly instead of making many mineral trips. Friendly workers could mine from the same mineral patch at the same time as a MULE but enemy workers would be blocked

Step 3: After 30 seconds the MULE would transform into an Atmospheric Escape Pod and rocket back into space carrying all the minerals it had gathered. The player would then receive the mineral bounty. If needed the MULE could be manually ordered to launch into space early to lock in the minerals profit.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Rufio
Profile Joined December 2009
241 Posts
December 24 2009 21:51 GMT
#94
I hope the development team hasn't missed this awesome thread!
"Rufio Rufio Ru Fi OOOooo" - The Lost Boys
emikochan
Profile Joined July 2009
United Kingdom232 Posts
December 24 2009 22:36 GMT
#95
So much agree with the last point, macro NEEDS something for the spectators! There's something I love about watching the queens inject larva cycle and the proton charge effect, M.U.L.E.s dropping is cool too but I think all macro should have something special.

Something like 5 lights on a terran/toss building for the active production queue slots (I don't think this would affect balance too much as you can cancel / wait with queues if there is a scout around - or fake queue lots of units)... for example.

I do quite like your mule idea Archer, and I hope blizz could see this...
Probes need love too.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 24 2009 22:41 GMT
#96
On December 25 2009 07:36 emikochan wrote:
So much agree with the last point, macro NEEDS something for the spectators!

Thats a huge point. Inorder to promote macro playstyles in an esports enviroment spectators need to be able to clearly see that this player is out macroing his opponent. If the announcers scroll back to the base and there are a huge number of drop pods falling and relaunching then the audience instantly knows that this player is macroing well.

Its more than just a mineral counter in the corner. Its about visual presentation of outstanding play.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
Waffles
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Romania605 Posts
December 24 2009 23:10 GMT
#97
i feel mule is a little imbalanced in island maps. in maps with island expansions like python where you have to mine it out to get it, before you require a dropship, now you do not. i feel that they need a new way to block out expansions if this were to come out.
Rufio
Profile Joined December 2009
241 Posts
December 25 2009 00:03 GMT
#98
On December 25 2009 07:41 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2009 07:36 emikochan wrote:
So much agree with the last point, macro NEEDS something for the spectators!

If the announcers scroll back to the base and there are a huge number of drop pods falling and relaunching then the audience instantly knows that this player is macroing well.


Jizzed my pants just imagining this happening.


"Rufio Rufio Ru Fi OOOooo" - The Lost Boys
emikochan
Profile Joined July 2009
United Kingdom232 Posts
December 25 2009 01:17 GMT
#99
Don't get me wrong, I love sick micro like the next fan but sick macro should pull the screaming fangirls too :3 There is a niche indie game I played called "Harvest: Massive Encounter" that was all about base macro, you'd see the energy links in your base heating up as they approached 100% capacity ( but would explode if heated for too long) really made it seem intense...

Oh well if it doesn't get in the game someone / i will mod it in xD

And, even if it's not implemented we want blizz thinking this deeply about all macro mechanics (so they should read anyway).
Probes need love too.
CaptainPlatypus
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States852 Posts
December 25 2009 01:21 GMT
#100
Love this concept. Specifically, asymmetrical balance (having, in this case, all three races play in different ways, but still be balanced against each other) is one of the most important things that made Brood War successful (right up there with the speed of the game). A lot of what I've seen of Starcraft 2 suggests that this concept has been to some extent left behind, which makes me both sad and worried about its lifespan.

This concept sounds like it could be a major piece in the "SC2 asymmetry" pie, which I love.
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
December 25 2009 01:50 GMT
#101
On December 25 2009 08:10 Waffles wrote:
i feel mule is a little imbalanced in island maps. in maps with island expansions like python where you have to mine it out to get it, before you require a dropship, now you do not. i feel that they need a new way to block out expansions if this were to come out.

Wow! I never even considered that! Racks->OC->CC->Mule out island + land. Allows you to take island expos way too early.
Maybe Blizzard should not let Mules harvest from High Yield minerals? That way high-yield can be used for blocking bases on islands. With the current Mule system it does not take away any decision making anyway because if you have high yield, you would always put all mules there anyway.

With Archers proposed mule changes I don't think loosing high yield mining is a big loss anyway. It would make the system loose one risk/reward target system, but his whole idea gives plently of decision making without high yield anyway. Its not that big a loss for balance.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-25 05:06:30
December 25 2009 04:58 GMT
#102
On December 25 2009 08:10 Waffles wrote:
i feel mule is a little imbalanced in island maps. in maps with island expansions like python where you have to mine it out to get it, before you require a dropship, now you do not. i feel that they need a new way to block out expansions if this were to come out.




I knew this concern to arise and I am glad you brought it up to be addressed. First lets realize that mining from an island map with blue minerals is the same as mining from a mineral field in your own base except for the advantage that it does not use up minerals in your own base.


Now for the other concern, calling down MULEs on island maps with gold minerals. Allow me to ask one question: In all the maps that Blizzard has shown how many islands with gold minerals have you seen?

For all we know island maps with gold minerals could already be imbalanced towards Terrans with thier lift off and ferry 4 SCVs. Further more is it worth sacrificing awesome gameplay for one particular map set up. Are we not allowed to have cliff jumping units because they would be imbalanced in maps with no cliffs or too many cliffs? And finally isnt it still possible to balance these maps types. For instance you could put the gold minerals in range of marine, stalker or hydralisk fire. Which of course would add another interesting gameplay element.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
December 25 2009 05:15 GMT
#103
On December 25 2009 13:58 Archerofaiur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2009 08:10 Waffles wrote:
i feel mule is a little imbalanced in island maps. in maps with island expansions like python where you have to mine it out to get it, before you require a dropship, now you do not. i feel that they need a new way to block out expansions if this were to come out.




I knew this concern to arise and I am glad you brought it up to be addressed. First lets realize that mining from an island map with blue minerals is the same as mining from a mineral field in your own base except for the advantage that it does not use up minerals in your own base.


Now for the other concern, calling down MULEs on island maps with gold minerals. Allow me to ask one question: In all the maps that Blizzard has shown how many islands with gold minerals have you seen?

For all we know island maps with gold minerals could already be imbalanced towards Terrans with thier lift off and ferry 4 SCVs. Further more is it worth sacrificing awesome gameplay for one particular map set up. Are we not allowed to have cliff jumping units because they would be imbalanced in maps with no cliffs or too many cliffs? And finally isnt it still possible to balance these maps types. For instance you could put the gold minerals in range of marine, stalker or hydralisk fire. Which of course would add another interesting gameplay element.

I think you missed his point. You can use mules to gather the minerals out that block the CC from landing and then take the island expo before you get anywhere near drop tech (the only other way for any race to take an island expo.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-25 05:23:55
December 25 2009 05:20 GMT
#104
On December 25 2009 14:15 DeCoup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 25 2009 13:58 Archerofaiur wrote:
On December 25 2009 08:10 Waffles wrote:
i feel mule is a little imbalanced in island maps. in maps with island expansions like python where you have to mine it out to get it, before you require a dropship, now you do not. i feel that they need a new way to block out expansions if this were to come out.




I knew this concern to arise and I am glad you brought it up to be addressed. First lets realize that mining from an island map with blue minerals is the same as mining from a mineral field in your own base except for the advantage that it does not use up minerals in your own base.


Now for the other concern, calling down MULEs on island maps with gold minerals. Allow me to ask one question: In all the maps that Blizzard has shown how many islands with gold minerals have you seen?

For all we know island maps with gold minerals could already be imbalanced towards Terrans with thier lift off and ferry 4 SCVs. Further more is it worth sacrificing awesome gameplay for one particular map set up. Are we not allowed to have cliff jumping units because they would be imbalanced in maps with no cliffs or too many cliffs? And finally isnt it still possible to balance these maps types. For instance you could put the gold minerals in range of marine, stalker or hydralisk fire. Which of course would add another interesting gameplay element.

I think you missed his point. You can use mules to gather the minerals out that block the CC from landing and then take the island expo before you get anywhere near drop tech (the only other way for any race to take an island expo.


Destructable Rocks are the new landing blockers. MULEs cant attack destructable rocks because well MULEs cant attack.

Coincidentally, if you did want to do this as Terran you can lift off your CC and it can carry 4 SCVs. The SCVs can then destroy the destructable rocks provided there is enough space to drop off the SCVs. So yes you might be seeing this tactic in games but it wont be because of Remote Mining MULEs.
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
DeCoup
Profile Joined September 2006
Australia1933 Posts
December 25 2009 12:47 GMT
#105
Ah yeah, forgot about the rocks
I wonder if you can drop SCVs while the CC is lifted.
"Poor guy. I really did not deserve that win. So this is what it's like to play Protoss..." - IdrA
emikochan
Profile Joined July 2009
United Kingdom232 Posts
December 25 2009 14:29 GMT
#106
In every non-br game i've seen, people just build their expos next to the rocks and mine anyway...Seems the efficiency you lose in the long term is made up for by the quicker access to the minerals. (i.e. expanding there first)

This is worryingly good for terrans ofcourse since they can lift and reposition at their leisure. (though often I see them transform PF at the high-yield..)

is i only 4 scvs now ? was 5 last i saw, glad they reduced it tbh...
Probes need love too.
Archerofaiur
Profile Joined August 2008
United States4101 Posts
December 27 2009 19:16 GMT
#107
On December 25 2009 23:29 emikochan wrote:
In every non-br game i've seen, people just build their expos next to the rocks and mine anyway...Seems the efficiency you lose in the long term is made up for by the quicker access to the minerals. (i.e. expanding there first)

This is worryingly good for terrans ofcourse since they can lift and reposition at their leisure. (though often I see them transform PF at the high-yield..)


Yes but at least were agreed that this if anything is a concern for Command Centers that ferry SCVs and not a concern for Remote Mining MULEs.


I just wanted to make sure that no one else was concerned about Remote Mining being overpowered on island maps. I know there was allot of talk about this before but I feel like the points I made should help most people see this is not really a big issue.


is i only 4 scvs now ? was 5 last i saw, glad they reduced it tbh.


Actually now that I think about it it might be 5. I think Blizzard wants Terran to be the easy expand race (which remote mining MULEs plays into).
http://sclegacy.com/news/28-scl/250-starcraftlegacy-macro-theorycrafting-contest-winners
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