EPTDay[9].tv Daily - Page 789
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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BuuGhost
Netherlands340 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:38 Foxt wrote: Yeah I know that, and its totally okay to clarify that you may have lost the game already long time before the battle. But this is not the thing I am wondering. I am wondering, why this episode is supposed to be about dealing with banelings when it clearly does not talk about that. It talks about that macroing badly you will loose the fights anyway but that is not related to banelings anyhow. The real guide to deal with banelings would tell, how to micro your units against banelings or what unit compositions and positions are correct answer for banelings. Well, I am about 1/5th with the daily, And the things noticed me that he said "I'm not going to worry about the micro related things, More about the MACRO related things" and i fullyagree with him here. It's a newbie tuesday. Once you hit 2500ish diamond you can start worrying about having to micro your units. But 2500ish diamonds are not newbies, They are decent players. And a bronze league or ever 1000ish diamonds don't have to worry about micro (However spreading your units VS aoe units is usually benefitial, Having a army to spread out is even more benefitial) Quote: "How do i micro perfectly with a helion vs a roach and take no damage" Also, You won't reach the midgame without or with little macro. But since you watched the daily you probaly noticed him saying that too. ;| hope i helped anyhow. | ||
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Foxt
Belize181 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:52 BuuGhost wrote: Well, I am about 1/5th with the daily, And the things noticed me that he said "I'm not going to worry about the micro related things, More about the MACRO related things" and i fullyagree with him here. It's a newbie tuesday. Once you hit 2500ish diamond you can start worrying about having to micro your units. But 2500ish diamonds are not newbies, They are decent players. And a bronze league or ever 1000ish diamonds don't have to worry about micro (However spreading your units VS aoe units is usually benefitial, Having a army to spread out is even more benefitial) Quote: "How do i micro perfectly with a helion vs a roach and take no damage" Also, You won't reach the midgame without or with little macro. But since you watched the daily you probaly noticed him saying that too. ;| hope i helped anyhow. You are right with everything you said, but the problem is that if that daily revolves around macro, why it is then named as "banelings"? Even describtion of video says about dealing with banelings but the video itself talks just about macro. Even though this dailys description says "we're going to be focusing on how to deal with banelings in the mid-game" it does not help in dealing with banelings at all! | ||
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pfods
United States895 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:52 BuuGhost wrote: Well, I am about 1/5th with the daily, And the things noticed me that he said "I'm not going to worry about the micro related things, More about the MACRO related things" and i fullyagree with him here. It's a newbie tuesday. Once you hit 2500ish diamond you can start worrying about having to micro your units. But 2500ish diamonds are not newbies, They are decent players. And a bronze league or ever 1000ish diamonds don't have to worry about micro (However spreading your units VS aoe units is usually benefitial, Having a army to spread out is even more benefitial) Quote: "How do i micro perfectly with a helion vs a roach and take no damage" Also, You won't reach the midgame without or with little macro. But since you watched the daily you probaly noticed him saying that too. ;| hope i helped anyhow. Don't have to worry about microing units until 2500 diamond? Are you actually being serious or are you trolling here? | ||
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Foxt
Belize181 Posts
Can I ask, how the hell this should be anyhow possible for human species with only two hands? Human can not select control groups and press various buttons at the same time when you are moving with your marines and slicing them into smaller groups and not to stop at any time. And if you have no tanks positioned, then you additionally need to focus on kiting those banelings with marines. There is no other option than queue stuff before engaging to battle. | ||
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waylanderm
Netherlands118 Posts
So if you loose battles like that that you focus on other things then the banelings. also he focuses in the colosus episode (and i think a bit in the baneling episode) on positioning , watch them both and see if it helps you | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:56 Foxt wrote: You are right with everything you said, but the problem is that if that daily revolves around macro, why it is then named as "banelings"? Even describtion of video says about dealing with banelings but the video itself talks just about macro. Even though this dailys description says "we're going to be focusing on how to deal with banelings in the mid-game" it does not help in dealing with banelings at all! When he says "deal with banelings" he means "win games against people using banelings" not "win battles against banelings". | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1510 Posts
On January 08 2011 19:14 Foxt wrote: Day9 said, that people ultimately should macro at the same time while microing your marines against banelings. Can I ask, how the hell this should be anyhow possible for human species with only two hands? Human can not select control groups and press various buttons at the same time when you are moving with your marines and slicing them into smaller groups and not to stop at any time. And if you have no tanks positioned, then you additionally need to focus on kiting those banelings with marines. There is no other option than queue stuff before engaging to battle. You can actually attack bind all your rax to one key and while you attack just press the rax button hit a a few times and continue attacking... that way you will have atleast some marines if your attack fails. This is what Day9 was talking about | ||
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On January 08 2011 19:14 Foxt wrote: Day9 said, that people ultimately should macro at the same time while microing your marines against banelings. Can I ask, how the hell this should be anyhow possible for human species with only two hands? Human can not select control groups and press various buttons at the same time when you are moving with your marines and slicing them into smaller groups and not to stop at any time. And if you have no tanks positioned, then you additionally need to focus on kiting those banelings with marines. There is no other option than queue stuff before engaging to battle. And this is why youre not a progamer. | ||
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HwangjaeTerran
Finland5967 Posts
On January 08 2011 18:59 pfods wrote: Don't have to worry about microing units until 2500 diamond? Are you actually being serious or are you trolling here? Not trolling IMO, just pretty extreme with his point. 2500 aren't that badass yet because of point inflation. Of course you have to know some micro, but no way is it the most important thing to focus on that level. I might be wrong, haven't been online for a month so can't report on that. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On January 08 2011 06:21 Railxp wrote: as a rabid archive viewer, not having my fix makes me ARRAFAFARRFFRUUUURGUUUAHHDNNNUUAUAAANNNNDNNNDDDD oh well, yay day9 keep up the good work. Im consistently amazed by how you keep coming up with new topics to talk about XD. I second on the REWRARWARARANRHARNAR part  | ||
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eckm
United States72 Posts
great daily. I do think though that Day[9] overestimated the effectiveness of strelok's harassment, and that the success of stephano's unit mix/timing, while executed very well, was not as astonishing as the way he so effectively stalled the terran player, delaying the mech timing push. I will summarize the game as I saw it: stephano had very keen timing in deflecting the initial hellion and subsequent cloaked banshee harassments after scouting the double factory at strelok's ramp. (a well-placed spine crawler and queen at his main ramp neutralized the first banshee aggression, and an overseer was immediately available to counter the first banshee's cloak). as day[9] noted, stephano did get a little disorganized as the harassment continued, and unfortunately had to sac' his newly-completed, under-saturated third (further his counter to strelok's main was mostly ineffective here). however, stephano successfully temporized strelok's 2-base mech+marine aggression until he (stephano) could morph relatively early brood lords to assert map control and re-take a third. caught without adequate viking production capabilities, strelok was quickly contained to his main/natural. in crisis, strelok at this point added two starports (bringing him to 3 without add-ons), and commenced viking production to meet the imminent brood lords. after throwing away his next batch of vikings to corruptors and infestors (great synergy here with fungals and infested terrans), failing to sustain pressure on stephano's third, and finding himself far behind, strelok tapped out. now, to me it seemed that it was more stephano's confident drone production combined with good defense of strelok's harassment with a small number of units that put him in a strong position in the mid-game. the early brood lords were unexpected--but after doing so little damage with the hellions/banshee/drop harassment, strelok was not in a position to be very aggressive, allowing the investment into brood lords. yes, stephano banked a stupid amount of minerals and came out with a convincing win despite this macro error. and yes, I was cheering him when the brood lords appeared with strong infestor support to chase the until-then somewhat scary, but now basically useless terran army all the way back home. but I do think that had stephano deferred the brood lords in favor of a more standard, roach-oriented mid-game composition, he could have spent all those minerals and gone on to win anyway. it seemed to me a great example of cool and collected early- to mid-game delaying/stalling/temporizing from zerg to seize a late-ish mid-game advantage--in this case with tech, but his reasonably strong position here could have as easily yielded a "more stuff" kind of advantage. anyone agree? ---- also, I'm curious what Day[9]/people think about hellion openings in this match-up. only occasionally will I see even blue flame hellions get those money shots that kill a bunch of drones very fast and make the investment worthwhile. defending hellion harass seems fairly straight forward if you have roaches/queens/spines positioned well. when the hellion harassment fails, the terran seems quite far behind indeed. (nb: I'm a ~1500 toss player with a million bonus pool and have only enjoyed TvZ properly as a spectator) | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
roflllll i completely agree =] i always find it funny how random people claim things to be impossible when they can't/haven't yet been able to do it themselves... i had this happen to me just today, when i was teaching one of my bronze friends the concept of macro. we did the same opening, but by the time I pushed, i had 2x the size of his army, and he just said "that's just fucking impossible." i told him that he's supposed to use his hotkeys to build units while controlling his army, and he continued to believe that there's no way that a person can do that. obviously it's possible if i (and many other players) do it... and he/they just can't admit that they suck. | ||
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RuFFy7
17 Posts
can anyone sumup the ZvZ-Strategy, Build Order&Placement here? Couldnt watch it and it's noch uploaded. Thx in advance | ||
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Foxt
Belize181 Posts
It is just not possible to actively macro while microing marines against banelings. Even progamers do not have 4 hands. Only way to have constant unit production while microing marines against banelings, is queueing before combat engagement. Or putting units already in spreaded position and setting them on "hold position"-setup and just move marines a little bit. But that is not the same deal than slicing your marines from fly. This thing was confirmed by one of my friends, VirusSatiini who is one of the highest ranked players in Finland. He said that macroing while slicing marines against baneligns is not possible. | ||
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Fist
Netherlands235 Posts
On January 08 2011 23:09 Foxt wrote: It is just not possible to actively macro while microing marines against banelings. Even progamers do not have 4 hands. Only way to have constant unit production while microing marines against banelings, is queueing before combat engagement. Or putting units already in spreaded position and setting them on "hold position"-setup and just move marines a little bit. But that is not the same deal than slicing your marines from fly. This thing was confirmed by one of my friends, VirusSatiini who is one of the highest ranked players in Finland. He said that macroing while slicing marines against baneligns is not possible. Alot of things the pro's do seems impossible to me. With like a quarter of their apm, it is impossible for me to do it. | ||
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Foxt
Belize181 Posts
Confrimed by VirusSatiini, who is pretty damn good player, so I have no reason to not believe this.. | ||
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eckm
United States72 Posts
So now imagine boxing a couple marines and then issuing a right click move command. In the time it takes for you to then move your cursor from the point where you right clicked, to where you're going to be starting the next box/selecting a marine, you will have enough time to type '6a'. If you have to start training like 8 marines off several raxes, obviously it will take more time, but you won't be doing the most intensive part of marine-splitting for very long periods of time either. It is obviously physically possible to macro while doing even attention/apm-intensive micro... I think the hard part is not figuring how it is physically possible, but rather remembering to do it. knowing when you have that spare millisecond while microing and processing everything that's happening on the screen, and the trained instinct to do it without having to think about it. | ||
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eckm
United States72 Posts
On January 08 2011 23:22 Foxt wrote: Confrimed by VirusSatiini, who is pretty damn good player, so I have no reason to not believe this.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority | ||
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