EPTI've won 9 out of my last 10 quite convincingly. And the game I lost was me expanding into a terrans natural with cannons when he just happened to be 3 rax pushing.
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
I've won 9 out of my last 10 quite convincingly. And the game I lost was me expanding into a terrans natural with cannons when he just happened to be 3 rax pushing. | ||
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Minty
United States8 Posts
Terran infantry is really, really, really efficient against protoss gateway units, particularly with stim and concussive shells. The best way for a protoss player to turn this advantage around is to tech up to colossi or HT, both of which are highly efficient against infantry. So, the protoss player is usually committed to a long-term strategy of teching/macro. Now, the logic behind a tech/macro strategy is that you invest resources into something that will pay dividends later, whether that will be an economic advantage or an advantage in army composition efficiency. However, your opponent could be investing a similar amount of resources into his army. So, how do you survive until your investment kicks in given that your opponent could have a much larger army? I break it up into these categories: 1. Choice: Your opponent doesn't move out to kill you. This may seem like kind of a dumb point, but if you scout an opponent going for a tech/macro strategy as well then you don't need to worry about an early push. 2. Distance: One of the best defensive advantages, being far away from your opponent means that you automatically have more time to prepare and that some of your opponent's army will be stuck in transit at any given time. However, this advantage is entirely dependent on the map and the spawn locations. 3. Threat of a counterattack: Think zergling runby or banshee harassment. If your opponent does move out, you can attack a vulnerable location, forcing the opponent to stay at home and defend at least for a while. 4. Army harassment: The idea is that you skirmish with the enemy, inflicting small losses without taking too many yourself. This includes picking off stray units and forcing unnecessary stims. This means that the big push will be weaker when it does hit your door. 5. Army efficiency: If your army is smaller, you can still win or at least equalize with your opponent if your units are more effective than theirs. This includes army composition (i.e. don't use roaches against a marauder-heavy army), but it also includes static defenses. Static defenses, by their nature, have to be more powerful for their cost than a unit, because the unit is mobile. I also put micro under this category, as micro revolves around using control to get the biggest bang out of your buck. 6. Terrain advantage: Main bases are on high ground with ramps for a reason. If you force the opponent to engage in a tight choke or otherwise disadvantageous location you can win with a smaller army. The reason I lay these out is to show how many of these options are hard to do for a protoss, mostly because of the easy availability of stim and concussive shell. 1. and 2. are pretty much out of your control. 3., Counterattacking, is generally not so great for protoss compared to, say, zerg. The reason zergling runbys are so good is because zerglings are very fast and do damage very quickly. Protoss don't really have an early unit with both of these features. Sure, you can hide a pylon, warp in some units and try to slip in when he moves out, but if he pulls back you are practically guaranteed to lose all of those expensive units, and it's hard to do as much damage to your opponent's economy as with a pack of zerglings or stimmed marines. Still an option, but not ideal. Point 4., Army harassment, is the big weakness in my opinion. Stalkers are supposed to excel at this option. They are quicker than infantry units, they are good at stutter-step, and they have shields that regenerate damage. A group of stalkers should be able to pick off marines and maybe force stims out of an infantry ball heading to your base, and still survive to fight in the main confrontation. This breaks down when concussive shells enters the picture. Engaging with stalkers when the shells are out puts them at extreme risk, and considering stalkers cost more than a marauder or marine, you are likely to lose more than your opponent if you try this. Blink can help overcome concussive shells, but blink is a pretty large investment in time and resources, meaning that your harass needs to do a ton of damage in order to pay for itself. 5., efficiency, is another big point. Vanilla gateway units are not really efficient against infantry units, which is the root of the problem in the first place. Day9 has been advocating using more zealots, but from what I've seen stimmed marines don't even need to micro against zealots in order to beat them in terms of efficiency. When you consider that stim lets infantry run circles around zealots and that concussive shells slows zealots down even more, the advantage becomes apparent. Excellent force fields + guardian shield can potentially turn this around, but if you slip up your fields you can be rolled over. Charge is another option, but it's even more expensive than blink and chargelots still usually end up dead, they just do more damage before dying. Static defenses are another problem. Photon cannons are expensive, require an extra investment in a forge, and have no way of being reused. On top of this, stimmed marauders can blast through cannons at about equal cost, so even if your whole army is made up of cannons you are not guaranteed to hold. 6., Terrain, is basically the one advantage that protoss can always rely upon. Force fields are good, and force fields in a tight choke are damn good. Basically what protoss end up doing in every game is relying on sentries to buy time until their tech is operational. To relate this back to the daily... DTs worked great in this match as a form of harassment. They killed lots of combat units in addition to draining resources from killed workers and forced scans. But to get the dark shrine up (a pretty large investment) he had to rely on the distance provided by the scrap station map, as others have pointed out. And this is my big point: protoss cannot harass terrans to buy time without major additional investments in tech. DTs can force scans/turrets and kill units, but first you need a dark shrine. Blink stalkers can harass, but first you need blink. Chargelots are efficient enough to trade army count with infantry, but first you need charge. Considering that you are already putting major investments into army tech (usually robo tech, which is another path entirely from the harass options I listed) and that the harass is somewhat of a gamble you can see why most protoss prefer to just tread water with sentries (and perhaps an immortal or two) and reserve their money for the unit that lets them f'ing kill their enemy. Considering that observers are a requirement in practically every game, it's not a surprise that robo into colossus as fast as possible has become the standard. Personally I would love to see more blink stalkers, DTs, warp prisms etc. because these are the things that make protoss awesome but as the game stands turtle->robo deathball is the most effective strategy in PvT. And before someone asks 'if gateway units are so weak, why is 4gate so strong?' consider the elements of a 4gate attack: (a) You are investing almost entirely in army units hoping that the opponent has spent less, so being inefficient isn't a major concern; and (b) warp in completely negates the distance defensive advantage. Also, how often do we see 4gates in a high level PvT? It's a risky strategy, while robo is much safer in comparison. My 2 cents (actually more like a bathtub full of change) | ||
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HeeroMaki
United States27 Posts
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Kuror
United States399 Posts
On November 14 2010 13:25 HeeroMaki wrote: I'm looking for the song name of the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuJdpYkdpDw# (209 daily) at 27:50 after the titanic song, what is played?! My Heart Will Go On - Celine Dion | ||
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HeeroMaki
United States27 Posts
No. AFTER the titanic song. | ||
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HeeroMaki
United States27 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz346/OHRMomoka/MondayFunday.png) Monday Funday: You lose every game but one, but that one game is awesome. I got demoted to gold doing this, but I went 10 for 12 afterwards, so it's okay. | ||
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AyJay
1515 Posts
On November 15 2010 04:28 Chiponyasu wrote: Monday Funday: You lose every game but one, but that one game is awesome. I got demoted to gold doing this, but I went 10 for 12 afterwards, so it's okay. lol :D Chiponyasu Fighting! | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
We can work out timings to do timings pushes and expand behind them every 5min. It's brilliant idea by Day9, although i doubt that ANYONE! will actually do this in a similar way, well lets hope so  It could go a long way in showing (terrans specifically ) how to play macro games vs Z (and P to some extent). | ||
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Sully907
United States97 Posts
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desRow
Canada2654 Posts
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
My friend linked me to the replay he's reviewing, I can't wait to see what Day has to say about it. Interesting game to say the least. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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htcp
United States54 Posts
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Keldrath
United States449 Posts
On November 15 2010 12:32 Antisocialmunky wrote: QXC is a baller through reaper strats only work against gateway heavy builds. :D yeah it was just a joker strat cause he was supposed to play with a handicap of his choosing for the match, so he did that just for entertainment and to mess around and have fun. it wasnt a serious match with a worked out build. | ||
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inFeZa
Australia556 Posts
not to mention i was very unfamiliar with this map | ||
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deji
Estonia46 Posts
On November 15 2010 04:51 Sully907 wrote: Minty, I think your criticisms of the TvP matchup aren't because of limitations of the matchup, it's a limitation of how players are playing it right now. Other strategies exist, but they need to be used at a high level so the less skilled players(like me) will see how they can be effective. At MLG dallas, didn't jinro use banshees and thors in the matchup? If that's not a new style I don't know what is He's talking about protoss having few options, not terran. Personally, I think all would be well with the world if stalkers made 18 damage to armored instead of 14 (keeping damage to non-armored the same) and concussive shells cost the same as stim. The fragility of gateway units against terran MMM is quite absurd. I played a game vs a friend the other day where I had 130 food all gateway units vs his 80 food all MMM. I made a slight micro error where I didn't move all of my zealots to the front before the battle and my bigger army got absolutely stomped, he didn't even lose a third of his units. | ||
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Sully907
United States97 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
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ArdentZeal
Germany155 Posts
On November 15 2010 19:19 SlapMySalami wrote: Do you happen to be TsoBadGuy?? I'll bet you are but your secret is safe with me. If he really is that guy, you just gave it away to 3 million ppl. Way to hold a secret, champ! | ||
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