EPTDay[9].tv Daily - Page 378
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ggfobster
United States298 Posts
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Kpyolysis32
553 Posts
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Pandu1986
72 Posts
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Merikh
United States918 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + <day9tv> i'm so happy <day9tv> dude <day9tv> i'm like <day9tv> happiest camper in the universe | ||
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Ryzen
9 Posts
Let me know if that's something you might be interested in man, thanks! ryzen242@gmail.com | ||
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TheGrimace
United States929 Posts
Edit: Just a teaser if the upload happens, here's a shirt he got. ![[image loading]](http://i976.photobucket.com/albums/ae244/thegrimace1234/firefox2010-06-3022-03-33-15.jpg) | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
I know this is super protoss extravaganza week, but I have a TvZ question for you. I just got done watching a game HDStarcraft cast TLO vs Tarson and I'm curious what you think of going mass speed reapers early game vs zerg. It seems that it's a nice and effective alternative to walling in, since it gives the terran player more map control whereas normally he has to shut himself into his base until he gathers enough forces to push out for an expansion. Also, since reapers are relatively high in gas the terran can make use of extra minerals to build lots of barracks since the build time is so long for reapers. The early map control can be used to early expand. Since reapers make excellent scouts and the barracks already has the tech lab, the terran will have plenty of time to build marauders if the zerg switches to roaches/mass queens to counter. Do you think this type of opening would only be effective on difficult terrain maps like Desert Oasis? Do you think mass speed reapers is a viable opening at all? It would be cool to hear your thoughts and even maybe do a daily on this ~_O | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On July 01 2010 22:46 SugarBear wrote: Day9, I know this is super protoss extravaganza week, but I have a TvZ question for you. I just got done watching a game HDStarcraft cast TLO vs Tarson and I'm curious what you think of going mass speed reapers early game vs zerg. It seems that it's a nice and effective alternative to walling in, since it gives the terran player more map control whereas normally he has to shut himself into his base until he gathers enough forces to push out for an expansion. Also, since reapers are relatively high in gas the terran can make use of extra minerals to build lots of barracks since the build time is so long for reapers. The early map control can be used to early expand. Since reapers make excellent scouts and the barracks already has the tech lab, the terran will have plenty of time to build marauders if the zerg switches to roaches/mass queens to counter. Do you think this type of opening would only be effective on difficult terrain maps like Desert Oasis? Do you think mass speed reapers is a viable opening at all? It would be cool to hear your thoughts and even maybe do a daily on this ~_O I haven't seen that replay, but Speedlings own Reapers. Not to mention that without walling in, Terran would be completely exposed to Speedling run-bys in the mineral line. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On July 01 2010 22:59 Graven wrote: I haven't seen that replay, but Speedlings own Reapers. Not to mention that without walling in, Terran would be completely exposed to Speedling run-bys in the mineral line. I don't understand why the two of these are even mutually exclusive. If you wall-off with your rax + depot you might be susceptible to banelings busts, but just scout with one of the earlier reapers to figure out if this is coming and then re-enforce your wall-in. Also a large group of reapers can be pretty threatening because they can snipe your hatchery so fast. Also with speed upgrade if zerg isn't spreading creep well the reapers are not so slow. I would be most worried about the zerg throwing down a few spine crawlers at his main and natural and transitioning to mutas. Reapers can't shoot up. | ||
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Takkara
United States2503 Posts
On July 01 2010 22:46 SugarBear wrote: Day9, I know this is super protoss extravaganza week, but I have a TvZ question for you. I just got done watching a game HDStarcraft cast TLO vs Tarson and I'm curious what you think of going mass speed reapers early game vs zerg. It seems that it's a nice and effective alternative to walling in, since it gives the terran player more map control whereas normally he has to shut himself into his base until he gathers enough forces to push out for an expansion. Also, since reapers are relatively high in gas the terran can make use of extra minerals to build lots of barracks since the build time is so long for reapers. The early map control can be used to early expand. Since reapers make excellent scouts and the barracks already has the tech lab, the terran will have plenty of time to build marauders if the zerg switches to roaches/mass queens to counter. Do you think this type of opening would only be effective on difficult terrain maps like Desert Oasis? Do you think mass speed reapers is a viable opening at all? It would be cool to hear your thoughts and even maybe do a daily on this ~_O Jinro experimented with this a LOT in the mid-to-late Beta. Large large groups of speed Reapers into Ghosts!! for TvZ. It was covered in a D9D although it wasn't the best example of it, even. Here's the great replays of him using it against Zpux in Zotac Cup 11. Game 1 - Lost Temple http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798199 Game 2 - Metalopolis http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798949 D9D 114 - Jinro's Ghosts in TvZ http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6849611 Sure, it's an old patch and not indicative of current balance, but it's just a particular tactic you're asking about, and the tactic is well evidenced here. Enjoy! | ||
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:06 MoreFasho wrote: I don't understand why the two of these are even mutually exclusive. If you wall-off with your rax + depot you might be susceptible to banelings busts, but just scout with one of the earlier reapers to figure out if this is coming and then re-enforce your wall-in. Also a large group of reapers can be pretty threatening because they can snipe your hatchery so fast. Also with speed upgrade if zerg isn't spreading creep well the reapers are not so slow. I would be most worried about the zerg throwing down a few spine crawlers at his main and natural and transitioning to mutas. Reapers can't shoot up. as mentioned in previous casts, reapers are very costly in terms of time. One or two reapers do next to nothing vs a queen. At most you have 2-3 raxes early game. Being liberal here, we will assume you have 3 raxes. You will need at least 3 production cycles of reapers to stand a chance against a small ling army, thats nearly two minutes of not making anything else. Speedlings rape reapers, so especially on creep, and you just need 10 or so lings racing around the edges of your base and reapers wont be able to get in to hit buildings. Or zerg can put up one spine crawler and your harass is shut down. Or tech to roaches and harass is also shut down. More importantly, you dont have an army out to defend an early push because you spent 3 production cycles on reapers, which could have been 4 or 5 production cycles of marines. So your harass is shut down easily, and you have no army to defend. GG. | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:06 MoreFasho wrote: I don't understand why the two of these are even mutually exclusive. If you wall-off with your rax + depot you might be susceptible to banelings busts, but just scout with one of the earlier reapers to figure out if this is coming and then re-enforce your wall-in. Also a large group of reapers can be pretty threatening because they can snipe your hatchery so fast. Also with speed upgrade if zerg isn't spreading creep well the reapers are not so slow. I would be most worried about the zerg throwing down a few spine crawlers at his main and natural and transitioning to mutas. Reapers can't shoot up. Thats totally the problem. I experimented some games with mass speed reapers against every race on Desert Oasis, because Mech is a pain to execute well on this map because it is SO SLOW. Mass Reapers is so much fun, but relatively fast mutalisks with some spine crawlers just dont let you do anything for a long period of time in which the zerg can do too much stuff you usually want to control with mass reapers (expanding, mapcontrol) while you have to build more turrets than you can afford. But still, I think that mass reapers will become more and more viable once people start to figure out how to abuse them well. They destroy buildings SO fast, you just have to care about some stuff very well (where tanks are placed in TvT, dont get overambitious on creep as zerglings move the speed of light there etc.). I even thought about making it one of my basic tactics in TvP on many maps, as there are really not many things the protoss can do to move outside of his base as long as he has no blink stalkers and/or a REALLY compact building placement. Overall I haven't played more than 5 or 6 games with mass reapers and most of them were on Desert Oasis so I shouldn't analyse so much about it, but they all worked surprisingly well (at ~Diamond Top20), so once my mechanics are really close to what I want to them to be, I will definitely work on the timings of a build like this and experiment alot with it. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:20 Takkara wrote: Jinro experimented with this a LOT in the mid-to-late Beta. Large large groups of speed Reapers into Ghosts!! for TvZ. It was covered in a D9D although it wasn't the best example of it, even. Here's the great replays of him using it against Zpux in Zotac Cup 11. Game 1 - Lost Temple http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798199 Game 2 - Metalopolis http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798949 D9D 114 - Jinro's Ghosts in TvZ http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6849611 Sure, it's an old patch and not indicative of current balance, but it's just a particular tactic you're asking about, and the tactic is well evidenced here. Enjoy! Thanks! I was a bit worried that he'd already done a daily on this cause there's about 30 or so mid beta that I missed  | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:23 Railxp wrote: as mentioned in previous casts, reapers are very costly in terms of time. One or two reapers do next to nothing vs a queen. At most you have 2-3 raxes early game. Being liberal here, we will assume you have 3 raxes. You will need at least 3 production cycles of reapers to stand a chance against a small ling army, thats nearly two minutes of not making anything else. Speedlings rape reapers, so especially on creep, and you just need 10 or so lings racing around the edges of your base and reapers wont be able to get in to hit buildings. Or zerg can put up one spine crawler and your harass is shut down. Or tech to roaches and harass is also shut down. More importantly, you dont have an army out to defend an early push because you spent 3 production cycles on reapers, which could have been 4 or 5 production cycles of marines. So your harass is shut down easily, and you have no army to defend. GG. I think the time is a bit offset because you can build more raxes earlier to increase output. Reapers may not be able to attack queens or zerglings on creep, but I think the value is more in controlling the map OFF the creep, allowing you to set up an early expansion. You don't necessarily need to harass with the reapers as long as they can keep the zerg contained and even harass the zerg expansion. From what I've seen speedlings don't do too well against SPEED reapers off creep. I think if you made two control groups and did some fancy micro your reapers would rape the lings pretty badly. Again, turtling with spine crawlers is what you'd want the zerg player to do if you're going mass speed reapers, since you want him contained to allow yourself to better expand. In this case you wouldn't be using reapers to harass so much as to contain/scout. If the zerg pushes with just zerglings I think the speed reapers would clean up, especially with good micro and taking advantage of ledges. If the zerg switches to roaches then you already have plenty of raxes with tech labs, and reapers to scout and see it coming, so except maybe for steppes of war you'd be able to get plenty of marauders out before the roaches showed up at your doorstep. | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On July 01 2010 23:23 Railxp wrote: as mentioned in previous casts, reapers are very costly in terms of time. One or two reapers do next to nothing vs a queen. At most you have 2-3 raxes early game. Being liberal here, we will assume you have 3 raxes. You will need at least 3 production cycles of reapers to stand a chance against a small ling army, thats nearly two minutes of not making anything else. Speedlings rape reapers, so especially on creep, and you just need 10 or so lings racing around the edges of your base and reapers wont be able to get in to hit buildings. Or zerg can put up one spine crawler and your harass is shut down. Or tech to roaches and harass is also shut down. More importantly, you dont have an army out to defend an early push because you spent 3 production cycles on reapers, which could have been 4 or 5 production cycles of marines. So your harass is shut down easily, and you have no army to defend. GG. That's imo the wrong thought process. You do not have "at most" 2-3 raxes early game, you build as much raxes as you think are necessary to support your style which can go up to 1 base 5 rax mass reaper if it is going well and you see your opponent is not good at handling it. With a lot of reapers produced, you have a lot of minerals left to do something else - you can use it for expanding which should be the safest thing, but you can also use it to get a lot of barracks and continue that style. Reapers are awesome map control units, and you can have total awareness of what your opponent is doing and respond according to that, which is HUGE. There is no need to sacrifice them to do some little harass, Reapers dont get worse while game progresses because they are just too fast. Of course going 2 rax reaper only into expansion is risky and I dont recommend doing that. And even with a higher Reaper count it remains a "risky" strategy, as you can lose really fast once your reapers die on accident, which can easily happen if your awareness of what's going on and your mechanics are not really really good - which is why I haven't experimented too much with reapers yet. But I can only explain my point of view, that every time I used a mass Reaper build it gave me a lot of really cool possibilities to do and worked almost every time very well. edit: And you are right that it might feel a pretty awkward situation during early to mid game, because there is a timing window in which you might have big problems in in terms of supply deficit compared to your opponent, because reapers are a really expensive 1 supply unit which are pretty bad when it comes to a real battle. So from my point of view it is always a very map dependant strategy to execute, because there is no way you can hold off a well executed immortal timing push on incineration zone while you have 8 Reapers and didnt do alot of damage with them. Of course you can also harass while he is attacking and maybe do some wonders with Marauders + bunkers, but with 2-3 Stalkers in his base and given the time he needs to get his push from his base to yours it just doesnt feel good to go mass Reaper there. You always want to buy time with your Reapers until it comes to a real battle. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
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Bloodash
Netherlands1384 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/7122/day9lol.gif) fapalicious! | ||
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Azar
Colombia66 Posts
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Tech231
United States90 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:41 Bloodash wrote: got a hold of some hidden day9 daily takes that where cut out recently, prepare for a shocker: + Show Spoiler + fapalicious! that's fucked up lol...it's also funny that someone took the time to make it. | ||
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Mataru
Norway356 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Jinro experimented with this a LOT in the mid-to-late Beta. Large large groups of speed Reapers into Ghosts!! for TvZ. It was covered in a D9D although it wasn't the best example of it, even. Here's the great replays of him using it against Zpux in Zotac Cup 11. Game 1 - Lost Temple http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798199 Game 2 - Metalopolis http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6798949 D9D 114 - Jinro's Ghosts in TvZ http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6849611 Sure, it's an old patch and not indicative of current balance, but it's just a particular tactic you're asking about, and the tactic is well evidenced here. Enjoy! Wow, thanks for these links, that's some of the most awesome TvZ play I've seen. Incredible unit control and multitasking, multiple drops at the same time and great biomech play. | ||
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