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Here is my main problem with the Thor. It's too indistinct and does not really pose an acute threat that needs to be addressed, as many of Starcraft higher-tech units do. Thor is, effectively a few golies bunched into one. Not that interesting.
What's cool about Starcraft is that each tech choice requires a unique approach from opponent. For example, let me explain what I mean:
-Tanks ownage of goons straight up needs to be addressed with surround, zealots, storm and zealot bombs, etc. If you just attack move, you get raped. Tanks can also destroy base defense with impunity.
-Vultures mines need careful elimination and detection. Again, you attack move you die.
-Muta harass also needs specific counter and defense.
-Reavers represent an enormous threat that, if you mismanage your units, you will get owned by a few well-placeed scarabs.
-Colossus raped low and mid-tier units with its high damage output and AOE.
-Dark templar are cloaked and need detection to deal with as well as vigilance to not let them sneak in somewhere and rape your econ.
-Storm, similar to reaver--you can't to manage your units against this, or die.
-Archons. Etc.
-Carriers - huge air threat that needs to be addressed asap, and is very hard to do.
In above examples, each high tech unit represents a unique and immediate threat that needs to be addressed with extreme sense of urgency. Colossus is just a generic big robot unit that introduces nothing more than the threat of "hey if I have enough of these, I am just gona attack move on your base." The counter to it is also--just attack move on it. Nor does it represent a great threat that needs a unique counter. It basically follows the way most other RTS's work, where you just make progressively more powerful versions of the same units. Thor adds nothing to Starcraft, and also does not fit in with the Terran synergy that FA talked about. Unfortunately, it needs a drastic overhaul rather than a few gimmicky changes to make it work well.
And since we are on the topic of generic units, replacing vultures with helions....just weak.
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I really like the ideas for change that you suggested FA, especially the one regarding using it as a mobile fortress that is able to load infantry units.
I'd really love for the Thor to gain more identity through abilities and changes like it, so it isn't completely a 1a2a3a unit like the current Ultralisks(for SC).
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 22 2009 12:29 SWPIGWANG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 05:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:
First of all, there is nothing that says the Thor would have to stay as low tech as it currently is, should these changes be made.
Second, how wouldn't the modules open up strategic options...?
It will still be in small battles in the extreme late game.
The problem is that the around factory level tech only has 3 units, and with the thor moved up then the factory lineup would be awfully incomplete. The player is pretty much forced into bio/biomech into air due to lack of AA. That is not necessarily a terrible thing, but does make terran game play less interesting as Bio/Mech's very different unit properties makes for very different fights. Now if there is another unit to fill the mid game factory gap (or hell, redeployable missile turrets), then the thor can be moved back and have those fancy mechanics. Otherwise, a unit that is affordable at mid game would be spammable at late game and all that baby sitting would be too much....
Well first of all, you can now salvage missile turrets so in a sense they are redeployable. BUT, I don't think that's what you had in mind so let's move on!
You could start by moving the Viking back to factory tech, where it started out...
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On October 22 2009 18:25 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 12:29 SWPIGWANG wrote:On October 22 2009 05:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:
First of all, there is nothing that says the Thor would have to stay as low tech as it currently is, should these changes be made.
Second, how wouldn't the modules open up strategic options...?
It will still be in small battles in the extreme late game.
The problem is that the around factory level tech only has 3 units, and with the thor moved up then the factory lineup would be awfully incomplete. The player is pretty much forced into bio/biomech into air due to lack of AA. That is not necessarily a terrible thing, but does make terran game play less interesting as Bio/Mech's very different unit properties makes for very different fights. Now if there is another unit to fill the mid game factory gap (or hell, redeployable missile turrets), then the thor can be moved back and have those fancy mechanics. Otherwise, a unit that is affordable at mid game would be spammable at late game and all that baby sitting would be too much.... Well first of all, you can now salvage missile turrets so in a sense they are redeployable. BUT, I don't think that's what you had in mind so let's move on! You could start by moving the Viking back to factory tech, where it started out...
While I really like the Viking's concept, it's an AtA unit. Moving it back to Factory Tech might give Terran air-power too early and if you need to defend your tanks from flyers, you leave them vulnerable to ground forces. It's an interesting unit, but I think it might have similar problems that the Thor has, just not as discussed.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 22 2009 18:41 Signus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 18:25 FrozenArbiter wrote:On October 22 2009 12:29 SWPIGWANG wrote:On October 22 2009 05:16 FrozenArbiter wrote:
First of all, there is nothing that says the Thor would have to stay as low tech as it currently is, should these changes be made.
Second, how wouldn't the modules open up strategic options...?
It will still be in small battles in the extreme late game.
The problem is that the around factory level tech only has 3 units, and with the thor moved up then the factory lineup would be awfully incomplete. The player is pretty much forced into bio/biomech into air due to lack of AA. That is not necessarily a terrible thing, but does make terran game play less interesting as Bio/Mech's very different unit properties makes for very different fights. Now if there is another unit to fill the mid game factory gap (or hell, redeployable missile turrets), then the thor can be moved back and have those fancy mechanics. Otherwise, a unit that is affordable at mid game would be spammable at late game and all that baby sitting would be too much.... Well first of all, you can now salvage missile turrets so in a sense they are redeployable. BUT, I don't think that's what you had in mind so let's move on! You could start by moving the Viking back to factory tech, where it started out... While I really like the Viking's concept, it's an AtA unit. Moving it back to Factory Tech might give Terran air-power too early and if you need to defend your tanks from flyers, you leave them vulnerable to ground forces. It's an interesting unit, but I think it might have similar problems that the Thor has, just not as discussed.
The Goliath was at factory tech...?
You could even have its flight mode be researched at starport tech if you are worried it'd come too quick.
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I just had a revelation! The Thor should be big, clunky and slow. It should be used for sieges to complement siegetanks and bunkers, in my opinion. Now imagine the terran doing a proxy factory and bunkering up outside the opponents base. Produce a few siegetanks and then....
convert the factory into a Thor!
I get the chills imagining that animation  Now you can have a big, powerful, slow unit that is built out in the field without it being gamebreaking. The terrans now have more of that strategic area control that i liked about SC1 terrans.
What do you think?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Thats... interesting  It'd certainly be cool, and I love walking buildings lol.
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Trees from W3
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On October 22 2009 10:29 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 09:10 Manifesto7 wrote:I don't agree with people who say that scv-built thors will screw up terran macro. The argument seems to be that "you don't need more factories, you can just use scvs and still produce units". Well, if the thor costs 300/300 and 6 supply, you would already have to have terrible macro in order to build more than one or two, keep pumping factory units, and have an extra 30 supply sitting around. Like this example: then the Terran player could potentially raise an army of 12 Thors very very fast. Really? You have 3600/3600 + 72 extra supply sitting aronud? That is nonsense. I don't like mobile bunkers. I do like customizable thors. It makes a lot of sense. I am indifferent about armour types, but the fact that a thor moves the same as a hellion bothers me greatly. I agree with manitou. Either make it small and massable (essentially into goliaths) or huge and more unique. it was an exaggeration for visual purposes only. my point was that by allowing the SCVs to build Thors outside of production buildings the Terran unit production isn't limited. In other words, the factories could continue to pump dual tanks or hellions using their reactors, while X SCVs create X Thors. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Terran players occasionally build up somewhat large stockpiles of resources, even in pro games. It's not common, but it does happen; usually when the Terran is doing some kind of slow push/turtling. In such a case, it won't be so far-fetched to say that the Terran player can simply just slap down 3-4 Thors at once. Granted, if the Terran player has proper macro, the supply limit would be an issue. However, say the Terran just lost a good number of tanks/hellions to a large air attack. Then the supply would be freed for several Thors to be built, while replenishing the tank numbers simultaneously. Basically, my concern is that by allowing SCVs to construct Thors the Terran doesn't have as much a dilemma in choosing between replenish tank/hellion numbers or to make Thors. In SC, the Terran has to choose between getting more Goliaths for the time being to counter air or to get more Tanks. With SCV construction of Thors, that dilemma is removed. I mean, imagine probes being able to warp in Colossi or Immortals straight into the battlefield while the Robotics Facility continues to pump out Observers or something -.-
I fail to see the difference between making more factories and making Thors. Nobody says a Thor should build super-quickly, quite the opposite - it's a super-unit that should take a loooong time to build and a big pile or resources - kinda like throwing down a few more factories and building a big bunch of tanks or something. Even less practical, since factories you build once and they keep producing, while for each Thor you'd have to take an SCV off resourcing for the entire build time (which should be considerable) and the Thor would be vulnerable while in production.
It could totally be balanced via build time, cost and tech tree placement.
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I think with a combination of FrozenArbiter's ideas the Thor could really work. It should be converted to a very slow, but powerful and versatile late-game unit (ideally with an independent tech building). It should be built by an SCV on the field, but costly (esp. in terms of supply so that it's not viable for immediate tech switches without sacrificing your army first). It's not transportable, but can lift-off (while being vulnerable airborne). It should get rebirth, but require a SCV for it (in principle a "rebuild" at very low/no costs, but time consuming).
It would be the ground alternative to BC requiring a totally different counter, therefore becoming a late game option to break fortified bases or counter heavy air. The fact that it can be deployed on the field makes up for it's slow speed. Viking becomes Factory tech to build the new support unit for terran mid game army, while it's airform is an upgrade of the Starport.
I would keep modules to BCs exclusively, to keep them an interesting alternative, and give BCs an unfit option to allow them to change their role (unfit would need to take some time and make the BC vulnerable to open windows of opportunities while Terran "reconfigures").
For the first time I see some light for the Thor!
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if you can produce it with scvs, it is possible to produce it directly where the fight is, or even sneak it behind enemy lines or such... with that in mind, i think it is perfectly fine if it was impossible to transport the thor by any other means - neither liftoff nor dropship. you'll just build it where you need it.
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Just have the Thor being made through merging 6 scvs or something, and equip it with a enormous deadly fusion cutter.
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Just have the Thor being made through merging 6 scvs or something, and equip it with a enormous deadly fusion cutter.
In essence i like this, even though I get the joke. If however, it was created by transforming a factory you'd retain the 'build anywhere' trait while not fucking up the tech tree and macro.
On to the fusion cutter. Id like the thor to have one primary mode of attacking that is close range, and also the 'Thors hammer' that should be pretty much like it is now.
By making the Thor close range you'd make it impractical to have too many at one time, cause they'll walk into each other. It would also make it easier to tank with.
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United States12235 Posts
Thor movement speed is too slow, but more importantly, their build time is too slow. Their attack speed is also slow, and their health is relatively low for what you would expect. I really don't see a role for it at all now that it's lost its flavor as a uniquely constructed unit with a slow turn rate. Blizzard has been trying all sorts of things with the Thor but what Terrans really need is simply another Goliath clone. Something that can be mass-produced and has quality anti-air properties.
I've been wondering if maybe there's some ability they could give to the Thor, such as an anti-air magnet that draws down air units to ground level (like Web/Ensnare in War3), like a weaker version of Lockdown, but even that I think couldn't save it (or would make it overpowered because Terran ground is already pretty strong).
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what about if when they are death you can repair them but it still cost you supply, so you need to go with your units and destroy him to get the supply
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On October 22 2009 10:44 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 09:04 Appendix wrote:
I think the Thor is flawed in so many ways.
First of all, lorewise, it is farfetched. Normally, lore isn't that big of a concern to me, but when the supposedly greatest terran scientists sat down and discussed the new alien threats, they could impossibly have concluded that the correct counter to the more mobile protoss armies and the much much more mobile zerg armies were to construct an even bigger and slower terran unit than we have ever seen before. I doubt anyone is that stupid. Lorewise it makes perfect sense (to me, at least). What is the Terran army lacking? An all-around, general-purpose, wreck-shit-up machine. Sure, you've got tanks (which are deadly, but only in bunches), nukes (which are expensive and easy to dodge), and battlecruisers (but they're often not practical in ground battles or whatever, you can fluff that somehow). It's not too hard to imagine Mengsk or Duke's SC2 equivalent watching a mass of zealots and dragoons smashing a tank line to bits and demanding that R&D "get me something that can stop these alien bastards. Something BIG." Is it?
I don´t agree. I would consider for instance the vulnerability to mutalisk harass a bigger weakness than zealots and dragoons, which tanks with proper support excel at killing. And as a solution to that problem I would not create the thor. I would make like gizmoducks with AA-missiles, or something. Small, mobile and only good against air.
The terran army is characterized by units well suited to their purpose. Tanks are raw power against attacking ground units, and are optimized for that, and that only. Vultures are fast, but generally weak in terms of firepower and health, well suited for harassment and scouting. Goliaths -> antiair. The only exceptions to this structure are marines and battlecruisers, but marines are the first available attacking unit and are generally weak, and battlecruisers are capitol ships at the other end of the scale whose purpose is to look impressive and keep the commanders safe.
The thor, as it is now, doesn´t fit into this structure. Its only unique value right now is that it is big. And, as it seems, to make it fit into the structure it has to become very complex.
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If it had the ability to lift off, self-repair, and act as a bunker, Thor would seriously be imbalanced. All at the small cost of 300/300.
Think of its massive 400 health as even more health with self-repair. The ability to lift-off? Wtf.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Remove siege tank and I find you and kill you. Seriously.
If you give it a buzzsaw or a flamethrower:
1) These forums will be forever stalked by enraged Warhammer fans. You might consider it funny, but they are like the most annoying people in the world so we will all suffer.
2) StarCraft atmosphere becomes a joke. It's still supposed to be science fiction, giant robots with chainaxes are for heroic fantasy.
3) We will get a melee-centric terran race which is unbelievably stupid.
I would be content though with Thor having a 1-unit limit and building for a bajillion minerals. This way it will still be in the game for those who love giant nonsense robot walkers, but will never ever be used in a serious game unless one player wants to humiliate the other with something that ridiculous.
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On October 22 2009 22:18 exeprime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 10:29 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 22 2009 09:10 Manifesto7 wrote:I don't agree with people who say that scv-built thors will screw up terran macro. The argument seems to be that "you don't need more factories, you can just use scvs and still produce units". Well, if the thor costs 300/300 and 6 supply, you would already have to have terrible macro in order to build more than one or two, keep pumping factory units, and have an extra 30 supply sitting around. Like this example: then the Terran player could potentially raise an army of 12 Thors very very fast. Really? You have 3600/3600 + 72 extra supply sitting aronud? That is nonsense. I don't like mobile bunkers. I do like customizable thors. It makes a lot of sense. I am indifferent about armour types, but the fact that a thor moves the same as a hellion bothers me greatly. I agree with manitou. Either make it small and massable (essentially into goliaths) or huge and more unique. it was an exaggeration for visual purposes only. my point was that by allowing the SCVs to build Thors outside of production buildings the Terran unit production isn't limited. In other words, the factories could continue to pump dual tanks or hellions using their reactors, while X SCVs create X Thors. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Terran players occasionally build up somewhat large stockpiles of resources, even in pro games. It's not common, but it does happen; usually when the Terran is doing some kind of slow push/turtling. In such a case, it won't be so far-fetched to say that the Terran player can simply just slap down 3-4 Thors at once. Granted, if the Terran player has proper macro, the supply limit would be an issue. However, say the Terran just lost a good number of tanks/hellions to a large air attack. Then the supply would be freed for several Thors to be built, while replenishing the tank numbers simultaneously. Basically, my concern is that by allowing SCVs to construct Thors the Terran doesn't have as much a dilemma in choosing between replenish tank/hellion numbers or to make Thors. In SC, the Terran has to choose between getting more Goliaths for the time being to counter air or to get more Tanks. With SCV construction of Thors, that dilemma is removed. I mean, imagine probes being able to warp in Colossi or Immortals straight into the battlefield while the Robotics Facility continues to pump out Observers or something -.- I fail to see the difference between making more factories and making Thors. Nobody says a Thor should build super-quickly, quite the opposite - it's a super-unit that should take a loooong time to build and a big pile or resources - kinda like throwing down a few more factories and building a big bunch of tanks or something. Even less practical, since factories you build once and they keep producing, while for each Thor you'd have to take an SCV off resourcing for the entire build time (which should be considerable) and the Thor would be vulnerable while in production. It could totally be balanced via build time, cost and tech tree placement.
if the build time for Thors and the tech tree placement was changed, then the Thor would no longer be a mid-game unit, but rather a late-game unit. The purpose of having an SCV build it in the field is to allow greater mobility for the Terran army. If the build time for the Thor is very long to fix balancing issues you're better of giving it a shorter build time and producing it from the factory. I mean, think about it, if the Thor takes 75 seconds to be built at the factory now, and you suggest making the build time longer. Even if the build time was increased to just 90 seconds or so, that's quite a long time and a very big window for the enemy to snipe the Thor while it's being built. In the field, the Thor will likely not have as much protection from AtG attacks as it would while being built within the base. Remember, the Thor's current niche is as an anti-air. Lengthen the build time, and most people would be constructing the Thor within the base anyways...
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On October 23 2009 00:55 Appendix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2009 10:44 Musoeun wrote:On October 22 2009 09:04 Appendix wrote:
I think the Thor is flawed in so many ways.
First of all, lorewise, it is farfetched. Normally, lore isn't that big of a concern to me, but when the supposedly greatest terran scientists sat down and discussed the new alien threats, they could impossibly have concluded that the correct counter to the more mobile protoss armies and the much much more mobile zerg armies were to construct an even bigger and slower terran unit than we have ever seen before. I doubt anyone is that stupid. Lorewise it makes perfect sense (to me, at least). What is the Terran army lacking? An all-around, general-purpose, wreck-shit-up machine. Sure, you've got tanks (which are deadly, but only in bunches), nukes (which are expensive and easy to dodge), and battlecruisers (but they're often not practical in ground battles or whatever, you can fluff that somehow). It's not too hard to imagine Mengsk or Duke's SC2 equivalent watching a mass of zealots and dragoons smashing a tank line to bits and demanding that R&D "get me something that can stop these alien bastards. Something BIG." Is it? I don´t agree. I would consider for instance the vulnerability to mutalisk harass a bigger weakness than zealots and dragoons, which tanks with proper support excel at killing. And as a solution to that problem I would not create the thor. I would make like gizmoducks with AA-missiles, or something. Small, mobile and only good against air. The terran army is characterized by units well suited to their purpose. Tanks are raw power against attacking ground units, and are optimized for that, and that only. Vultures are fast, but generally weak in terms of firepower and health, well suited for harassment and scouting. Goliaths -> antiair. The only exceptions to this structure are marines and battlecruisers, but marines are the first available attacking unit and are generally weak, and battlecruisers are capitol ships at the other end of the scale whose purpose is to look impressive and keep the commanders safe. The thor, as it is now, doesn´t fit into this structure. Its only unique value right now is that it is big. And, as it seems, to make it fit into the structure it has to become very complex.
You got it the wrong way around. Terrans "thing" is versatility. Specialisation is a Zerg thing - they get away with it because Larvae can turn into any unit. Thats why they can techswitch with ease and their 200/200 army is the weakest overall.
The Tank isn´t specialized, used properly it beats ANYTHING on the ground. Vultures are scout/harrass with anti armor/mobility inhibition with Spidermines etc...
Again it´s fair because Terrans don´t get Larvae but have to build either Barracks Factorys or Starports.
The Thor is EFFECTIVE against everything but only EFFICIENT against light air. As such it fits Terrans perfectly.
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EPT
