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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 23 2009 02:12 Unentschieden wrote: The Thor is EFFECTIVE against everything but only EFFICIENT against light air. As such it fits Terrans perfectly. when beta comes out I really want to see someone test out how well Thors respond to carriers. Because just looking at the numbers, it seems to me that the Thor would be able to destroy interceptors really easily... | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3096 Posts
So, as far as I'm concerned, the ground damage should simply be nerfed, and the Thor can stay otherwise the same, as the huge, damage-soaking, air-unit-destroying monstrosity it is. Oh, and the model is awesome...what's not to like about giant, impractical mechs? You guys need to lighten up. | ||
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JiYan
United States3668 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
On October 23 2009 02:29 Ryuu314 wrote: when beta comes out I really want to see someone test out how well Thors respond to carriers. Because just looking at the numbers, it seems to me that the Thor would be able to destroy interceptors really easily... When I played the Blizzcon build, I had one Thor that I built in response to a Carrier my opponent built. The Carrier just crushed my Thor and sustained very little damage in return. As Carrier and Thor numbers increased (only slightly, mind you), my Thor/Missile Turret combinations were still dying decisively. You would think that with their supply cost, resource cost, and build time that they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Carriers, but it's clearly not so. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Development In early builds, the thor could be constructed by SCVs in the field, though is now built from the factory.[9][8] The Thor "structure" used to cost 300 minerals/ 300 gas/ 6 supply/ 100 seconds, hotkey T.[6] The thor had a slow turning speed in the BlizzCon 2007 build, enabling units such as the Cobra to destroy it easily with micromanagement.[37] It now turns fairly quickly, and the turning speed is no longer a balancing factor.[29] The thor was scaled down in size as it was vulnerable to micro-ing from smaller units that could be built in only a fraction of the time and resources required to build a thor.[38] As of March 2008 the thor has been shrunk from its original size and can move faster in order to suit its anti-air role better. However, its anti-ground attack was weakened.[14][39] Previously the thor could not be transported.[40] I dont understand... Whats so terrible in that they can be easily microed to death if theyre unsupported? Obviously I dont know how exactly it played out but mechanics like that are interesting to me. And buildtime of 100 seconds doesnt seem that quickly spammable from just SCVs... It seems much more bland now :/ | ||
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Falling
Canada11314 Posts
Maybe it's just a weird version of the Factory, but if it's cheap enough, the Terran could build it fairly far afield/ proxy it. (But it couldn't be built literally anywhere and the Terran would actually have to prepare to go mass Thors.) It wouldn't tie up factories, but it would tie up an scv. Just a thought. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 23 2009 03:35 Excalibur_Z wrote: When I played the Blizzcon build, I had one Thor that I built in response to a Carrier my opponent built. The Carrier just crushed my Thor and sustained very little damage in return. As Carrier and Thor numbers increased (only slightly, mind you), my Thor/Missile Turret combinations were still dying decisively. You would think that with their supply cost, resource cost, and build time that they would be able to go toe-to-toe against Carriers, but it's clearly not so. that's interesting. So i'm guessing the carrier's interceptor rebuild rate coupled with its insane range can out-damage the Thor? i think if the Thor can be shown that its not an effective counter to heavy armored air or w/e then the SCV field building may be more balance-able. Still, in mid-game and late-game I would argue that tying up an SCV is less of a disadvantage/cost than tying up a factory...especially with the new macro mechanics. | ||
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Kaboo
Sweden125 Posts
Maybe it's just a weird version of the Factory, but if it's cheap enough, the Terran could build it fairly far afield/ proxy it. (But it couldn't be built literally anywhere and the Terran would actually have to prepare to go mass Thors.) It wouldn't tie up factories, but it would tie up an scv. Just a thought. Im going to act like a parrot and say it again: I really like the idea of a factory transforming into a thor. Its simple, its epic and it gives the Thor a unique twist. You can build it anywhere, fly it anywhere(as a factory) and you'll have to protect it while it builds. It sets the size of the Thor and it wouldnt require much work on blizzards side. The animation is already there for both the factory build and the Thor build. On another note: When I played the Blizzcon build, I had one Thor that I built in response to a Carrier my opponent built. The Carrier just crushed my Thor and sustained very little damage in return. In my opinion an equal investment in Thors should beat Carriers. The reason is that carriers are more mobile and can choose when to fight. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On October 23 2009 05:21 Kaboo wrote: Im going to act like a parrot and say it again: I really like the idea of a factory transforming into a thor. Its simple, its epic and it gives the Thor a unique twist. You can build it anywhere, fly it anywhere(as a factory) and you'll have to protect it while it builds. It sets the size of the Thor and it wouldnt require much work on blizzards side. The animation is already there for both the factory build and the Thor build. On another note: In my opinion an equal investment in Thors should beat Carriers. The reason is that carriers are more mobile and can choose when to fight. Carriers cost more than Thor, and thus why they should be able to beat Thors. Mobility? Did you watch how slow carriers are? | ||
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Kaboo
Sweden125 Posts
Carriers cost more than Thor, and thus why they should be able to beat Thors. Mobility? Did you watch how slow carriers are? When i say equal investment I mean resources of course, not number of units. Regarding mobility, the carriers fly and the Thor walks. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 23 2009 06:00 Kaboo wrote: When i say equal investment I mean resources of course, not number of units. Regarding mobility, the carriers fly and the Thor walks. Also, carriers have a much longer range than Thors according to some sources. Personally, the only issue I can see regarding carrer v. thor battles is how easily Thors can take out interceptors as Thor damage is done in groups of 4, meaning Carrier armor is effectively multiplied by 4. The Thor's potential as an all-purpose air counter is one of the reasons why I dislike the SCV build idea. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
1) When they die they leave a bunker-like structure. This blocks movement, and leaves very interesting positional oppertunities for where the terran wants their Thor's to die as to reinforce their line with a (possibly weaker then normal) bunker. 2) Factory transforms into it, so you have to sacrifice a factory to build one, this would obviously mean a heavy discount on the cost, but it would allow for a reasonably fast emergency response, as well as leaving the oppertunity to build a thor out in the field, it just has to be a factory first. People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision. edit: bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive. On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of? It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 23 2009 07:16 Shiladie wrote: OK, I got the majority of the way through this thread, so if these things are suggested at the end I appologise. 1) When they die they leave a bunker-like structure. This blocks movement, and leaves very interesting positional oppertunities for where the terran wants their Thor's to die as to reinforce their line with a (possibly weaker then normal) bunker. 2) Factory transforms into it, so you have to sacrifice a factory to build one, this would obviously mean a heavy discount on the cost, but it would allow for a reasonably fast emergency response, as well as leaving the oppertunity to build a thor out in the field, it just has to be a factory first. People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision. edit: bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive. On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of? It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch While the whole Factory transforming into a Thor idea is interesting and will help with balance, it just doesn't seem...right? I mean, personally i think it just screams Night Elf from WC3 :\ I'd rather not see buildings that are also units. | ||
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On October 23 2009 07:53 Ryuu314 wrote: While the whole Factory transforming into a Thor idea is interesting and will help with balance, it just doesn't seem...right? I mean, personally i think it just screams Night Elf from WC3 :\ I'd rather not see buildings that are also units. I'm not saying they get to transform back, I'd say it's a one time cost to transform and then they're stuck like that. The factory is part of the cost of the unit. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On October 23 2009 07:16 Shiladie wrote: People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision. edit: bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive. On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of? It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch I think its a bad idea. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *reasonable was because Lurker tech was researched from Hydra den, therefore, there was a connection between them. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *not overpowered was because lurkers, in mass numbers, was a powerful force but not a game-determining force. Imagine T vs. P, both their armies almost gone and resources completely drained. Well guess what? The Terran transforms his 10 factories into 10 Thors (which is a devastating army compared to 10 lurkers) and that is enough to determine the game outcome. Additionally, Factory cost is not very high, meaning Thor cost would be even more reduced than the already pretty low cost. It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop. Does that even sound remotely fair to you? Lets let Protoss Gateways turn into Carriers and see how many T players will complain | ||
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Falling
Canada11314 Posts
On October 23 2009 07:53 Ryuu314 wrote: I mean, personally i think it just screams Night Elf from WC3 :\ I'd rather not see buildings that are also units. I played WC2, not WC3 so I'm not sure what unit you're referring to. But I don't really see why it's such a big deal. They cross-pollinated from WC2 to StarCraft. (And from StarCraft to WC3.) And the concept of a factory turning into a giant mech has not a single fantasy element in it (Thematically, not game mechanics). It's all industrial/mechanical- comparing it to the transformers would be a more legitimate critique. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote: I think its a bad idea. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *reasonable was because Lurker tech was researched from Hydra den, therefore, there was a connection between them. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *not overpowered was because lurkers, in mass numbers, was a powerful force but not a game-determining force. Imagine T vs. P, both their armies almost gone and resources completely drained. Well guess what? The Terran transforms his 10 factories into 10 Thors (which is a devastating army compared to 10 lurkers) and that is enough to determine the game outcome. Additionally, Factory cost is not very high, meaning Thor cost would be even more reduced than the already pretty low cost. It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop. Does that even sound remotely fair to you? Lets let Protoss Gateways turn into Carriers and see how many T players will complain There would still be a cost to morph the factory to a thor, it is NOT free. I was saying the cost would need to be less then the 300/300 simply because the factory costs X/X So yes if the terran is willing to make an all-in attack by morphing all his factories to thors, first he has a fucktonne of money he's been saving to do that, and second he'll have no production if he doesn't win with it. I think the numbers can be balanced around it to make it work, and it adds an interesting gameplay element. If you wanted to make it less-able to be done on the fly you can have it require a tech addon or something, which would then be left behind when the Thor walked away, making it so you can continue to use one tech addon to produce Thors in your base if you are pumping them for some reason. Possibly making it so having a tech addon reduces the time it takes to do the transformation... but I'm just throwing out brainstorms at that point. The ability to proxy a fact, float it into their base unseen, make some hellions and then convert the factory to a Thor is indeed a tactic I can support and think would make for amazing games. | ||
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Krikkitone
United States1451 Posts
Give them a relatively low dps v. ground (but a high actual damage) so they are only good v. medium to large glass cannons (ie siege tanks, Lurkers, Colossi, which have a high splash dps, but a low hp /cost)... cheaper glass cannons such as hydralisks/Stalkers would be effective because of their relatively low cost and low # of hp v. air (particularly light air)..... BC, Carriers, and Broodlords would be about balanced v. them (carriers from the range, Broodlords from their broodlings doing additional damage, BCs because they can take the damage, and with Yamato/Def Matrix would be similar to Thors) They would then be countered by swarmable ground units Essentially they would have a similar role to Immortals and Ultralisks on the Ground, but with the additional strong anti-air component. | ||
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