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On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote:
It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop.
Other than this, I really like the fac --> thor idea.
But this is too strong. Imagine a 6 factory push, except with 6 less tanks and 6 thors instead. Yeah its all in because you sack production capacity, but there is nothing that's going to stop that.
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On October 23 2009 11:21 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote:
It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop.
Other than this, I really like the fac --> thor idea. But this is too strong. Imagine a 6 factory push, except with 6 less tanks and 6 thors instead. Yeah its all in because you sack production capacity, but there is nothing that's going to stop that.
As long as this sort of thing was factored in and balanced out by e.g. the Thor's stats, costs, build time, tech level of probable counters, there really wouldn't be a problem. This is like saying that a T can go for a timing push with tanks and vultures and it's too cost-efficient for any opponent to stop. Of course the windows are there, but as long as it's scouted it'll be met with zealots and goons and maybe reavers and squashed.
Assuming Thor is tier 2.5-3 (which seems like where it should be if it's going to be a heavy-weight hitter, and if it's not they should change the unit design to be smaller but I like the heavy-hitter idea beter), then any sort of Thor timing push is essentially going to be a Thor rush build (since the Thor will be counterable), which will be scoutable. I'm absolutely sure of this. And you know how much we make fun of players now for dying to hydra all-ins which actually come pretty fast since hydras are tier 1.5? Dying to a Thor rush would be like that, only more so - more like dying to fast carriers. It just shows you suck.
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On October 23 2009 09:18 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote:On October 23 2009 07:16 Shiladie wrote:
People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision.
edit:
bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive.
On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of?
It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch I think its a bad idea. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *reasonable was because Lurker tech was researched from Hydra den, therefore, there was a connection between them. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *not overpowered was because lurkers, in mass numbers, was a powerful force but not a game-determining force. Imagine T vs. P, both their armies almost gone and resources completely drained. Well guess what? The Terran transforms his 10 factories into 10 Thors (which is a devastating army compared to 10 lurkers) and that is enough to determine the game outcome. Additionally, Factory cost is not very high, meaning Thor cost would be even more reduced than the already pretty low cost. It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop. Does that even sound remotely fair to you? Lets let Protoss Gateways turn into Carriers and see how many T players will complain There would still be a cost to morph the factory to a thor, it is NOT free. I was saying the cost would need to be less then the 300/300 simply because the factory costs X/X So yes if the terran is willing to make an all-in attack by morphing all his factories to thors, first he has a fucktonne of money he's been saving to do that, and second he'll have no production if he doesn't win with it. I think the numbers can be balanced around it to make it work, and it adds an interesting gameplay element. If you wanted to make it less-able to be done on the fly you can have it require a tech addon or something, which would then be left behind when the Thor walked away, making it so you can continue to use one tech addon to produce Thors in your base if you are pumping them for some reason. Possibly making it so having a tech addon reduces the time it takes to do the transformation... but I'm just throwing out brainstorms at that point. The ability to proxy a fact, float it into their base unseen, make some hellions and then convert the factory to a Thor is indeed a tactic I can support and think would make for amazing games.
I actually really like that idea. It would definitely make for interesting gameplay and keep the opponents on their toes.
I think the Thor should get a lower dps for ground than it currently has (30x2 damage...really now? that's a lot). become slower than it is now (to allow for easier countering of the Thor as it currently doens't really have a counter except maybe the Immortal, which counters every armored unit). and its anti-air capabilities should be kept the way it is as they rape light air and can potentially disable carriers and pose a decent enough threat to Zerg and Terran heavy air. and i suppose it can keep its current 250mm cannon ability, although the damage would need to be balanced.
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On October 23 2009 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 09:18 Shiladie wrote:On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote:On October 23 2009 07:16 Shiladie wrote:
People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision.
edit:
bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive.
On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of?
It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch I think its a bad idea. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *reasonable was because Lurker tech was researched from Hydra den, therefore, there was a connection between them. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *not overpowered was because lurkers, in mass numbers, was a powerful force but not a game-determining force. Imagine T vs. P, both their armies almost gone and resources completely drained. Well guess what? The Terran transforms his 10 factories into 10 Thors (which is a devastating army compared to 10 lurkers) and that is enough to determine the game outcome. Additionally, Factory cost is not very high, meaning Thor cost would be even more reduced than the already pretty low cost. It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop. Does that even sound remotely fair to you? Lets let Protoss Gateways turn into Carriers and see how many T players will complain There would still be a cost to morph the factory to a thor, it is NOT free. I was saying the cost would need to be less then the 300/300 simply because the factory costs X/X So yes if the terran is willing to make an all-in attack by morphing all his factories to thors, first he has a fucktonne of money he's been saving to do that, and second he'll have no production if he doesn't win with it. I think the numbers can be balanced around it to make it work, and it adds an interesting gameplay element. If you wanted to make it less-able to be done on the fly you can have it require a tech addon or something, which would then be left behind when the Thor walked away, making it so you can continue to use one tech addon to produce Thors in your base if you are pumping them for some reason. Possibly making it so having a tech addon reduces the time it takes to do the transformation... but I'm just throwing out brainstorms at that point. The ability to proxy a fact, float it into their base unseen, make some hellions and then convert the factory to a Thor is indeed a tactic I can support and think would make for amazing games. I actually really like that idea. It would definitely make for interesting gameplay and keep the opponents on their toes. I think the Thor should get a lower dps for ground than it currently has (30x2 damage...really now? that's a lot). become slower than it is now (to allow for easier countering of the Thor as it currently doens't really have a counter except maybe the Immortal, which counters every armored unit). and its anti-air capabilities should be kept the way it is as they rape light air and can potentially disable carriers and pose a decent enough threat to Zerg and Terran heavy air. and i suppose it can keep its current 250mm cannon ability, although the damage would need to be balanced.
30x2 damage is GOOD
Just make it Slow
If the Thor does a Lot of damage at once with no splash that really ruins it v. low hp targets
Imagine 2 units with 20 dps
one does 5 damage every 0.25 sec
the other does 40 damage (in 8 packages of 5) every 2 sec
unless a unit is exactly 40, 80, 120, etc. hp then the 5/0.25 sec is better... and the % by which it is better goes up with smaller hp units
(now there is also how much armor affects it but that also depends on how many "packages so in this case they would be equal)
So if the Thor has a dps that is a Lot of damage per shot, but slow (nonsplash) shots, then it would be more easily countered by massive numbers of smaller units [which should be its counter, Thors should die easily to Zerglings, Zealots, Marines, Hydras.. possibly Stalkers
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On October 23 2009 16:05 Krikkitone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 12:18 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 23 2009 09:18 Shiladie wrote:On October 23 2009 07:59 AzureEye wrote:On October 23 2009 07:16 Shiladie wrote:
People may scream at number 2 at first, but think about it, it's the same kinda thing as building a hydralisk to get a lurker, just with a building. True it will take a bit longer to get a Thor from scratch if you don't want to sac an existing factory, but it gives the terran the ability for a quick switch to counter air, while still making it a strategic descision.
edit:
bah, somebody else thought of the factory xforming into the Thor, well hopefully this means it's an idea many people find attractive.
On that note, does anybody see a glaring problem with xforming a factory to a Thor that we havn't thought of?
It works themactically, it works to limit their numbers, and it gives the terran a versitility without making it an overpowering ability to techswitch I think its a bad idea. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *reasonable was because Lurker tech was researched from Hydra den, therefore, there was a connection between them. Why Hydralisks turning into Lurker was *not overpowered was because lurkers, in mass numbers, was a powerful force but not a game-determining force. Imagine T vs. P, both their armies almost gone and resources completely drained. Well guess what? The Terran transforms his 10 factories into 10 Thors (which is a devastating army compared to 10 lurkers) and that is enough to determine the game outcome. Additionally, Factory cost is not very high, meaning Thor cost would be even more reduced than the already pretty low cost. It just makes T units way way too cost-efficient; and they were already the most cost efficient race in Broodwar. Imagine every game, a T will go for a timing push in ADDITION to his factories turning into Thors for an all-in push that no opponent can stop. Does that even sound remotely fair to you? Lets let Protoss Gateways turn into Carriers and see how many T players will complain There would still be a cost to morph the factory to a thor, it is NOT free. I was saying the cost would need to be less then the 300/300 simply because the factory costs X/X So yes if the terran is willing to make an all-in attack by morphing all his factories to thors, first he has a fucktonne of money he's been saving to do that, and second he'll have no production if he doesn't win with it. I think the numbers can be balanced around it to make it work, and it adds an interesting gameplay element. If you wanted to make it less-able to be done on the fly you can have it require a tech addon or something, which would then be left behind when the Thor walked away, making it so you can continue to use one tech addon to produce Thors in your base if you are pumping them for some reason. Possibly making it so having a tech addon reduces the time it takes to do the transformation... but I'm just throwing out brainstorms at that point. The ability to proxy a fact, float it into their base unseen, make some hellions and then convert the factory to a Thor is indeed a tactic I can support and think would make for amazing games. I actually really like that idea. It would definitely make for interesting gameplay and keep the opponents on their toes. I think the Thor should get a lower dps for ground than it currently has (30x2 damage...really now? that's a lot). become slower than it is now (to allow for easier countering of the Thor as it currently doens't really have a counter except maybe the Immortal, which counters every armored unit). and its anti-air capabilities should be kept the way it is as they rape light air and can potentially disable carriers and pose a decent enough threat to Zerg and Terran heavy air. and i suppose it can keep its current 250mm cannon ability, although the damage would need to be balanced. 30x2 damage is GOOD Just make it Slow If the Thor does a Lot of damage at once with no splash that really ruins it v. low hp targets Imagine 2 units with 20 dps one does 5 damage every 0.25 sec the other does 40 damage (in 8 packages of 5) every 2 sec unless a unit is exactly 40, 80, 120, etc. hp then the 5/0.25 sec is better... and the % by which it is better goes up with smaller hp units (now there is also how much armor affects it but that also depends on how many "packages so in this case they would be equal) So if the Thor has a dps that is a Lot of damage per shot, but slow (nonsplash) shots, then it would be more easily countered by massive numbers of smaller units [which should be its counter, Thors should die easily to Zerglings, Zealots, Marines, Hydras.. possibly Stalkers
does thor damage currently splash?
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On October 23 2009 16:22 Ryuu314 wrote:does thor damage currently splash? The air damage does, last I heard, but not GtG.
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SOMETHING needs to be done about the Thor, I don't like spammable it was in the last Battle Report, and it died to easily and was just meh. They need to be fewer, they need to be more late game, and they need to make a bigger impact. Aaand they should not in any way step on the Siege Tank's toes. I want to see armies with Tanks in the mid game, not Thors.
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Make the tank transform into the thor at tier 3.
As in you need a scv to modify the tank to turn it into the Thor.
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I REALLY like the OP ideas. Great work. We need to bring those thoughts to blizzard if it hasnt already happened.
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Factories turning into thor's is not a good idea due to the impossibility of balancing something that is necessarily so all-in. Either the convert-all-factories-to-thor-all-in-push is super strong and works 80% or more of the time, which would make Terran a very boring race to play, (survive until you have 6 fact, convert and destroy)OR if the balance were tweaked so that this all in strategy was less effective or more situationally effective, the result would be that thors would never end up being seen at all, as players are unlikely to try such a scoutable late game all-in if the odds of success are ~50%. This is why starcraft games last as long as they do in the late game. Nobody wanting to press their small perceived advantage aggressively (risky), but instead choosing a to use their advantage as a chance to add more economic and macro capabilities to eventually roll over the opponent.
The only way the factory conversion mechanic could work is if some way could be devised to make each additional Thor less useful than the previous one (making it not all in, just convert one or two facts)
any ideas on how to make the thors effective mostly in small numbers?
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Sweden33719 Posts
Well, first of all, if the Factory transforms into the Thor, you are most likely going to be making NEW factories when you want to build Thors. Maybe there will be some very specific timing-rushes where you transform all your factories and just gogo, but I think that will be rare.
Second, if you want to limit their numbers (I do too), making them prohibitively costly (supply and resources) is one way, or giving them abilities that help the rest of your army but don't have a compounding effect as you get more Thors (an example of this would be Auras in WC3 - if you have one hero with Brilliance aura you won't benefit from a second hero with the same aura in a 2v2 - of course auras might not be the best mechanic in SC2 but the principle behind it can still apply).
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What would be something that would make a straight-up combat unit viable but not unviable to mass?
Abilities/auras that give something that you mostly ever need 1 per battle is obviously like that but doesnt really fit Thor.
Another way is to make it counter just 1 type of enemy well, and make it do that well enough that you dont ever need many of them together. Like, in Thors case, it could be ridiculously good vs light air units but pretty crappy vs all else. But usually thats shitty game design and doesnt fit Thor.
Could simply long buildtime be enough to discourage massing? Lets say for example 3 minutes to build a thor, either normally from fac or by SCV - even if a unit is really nice unit for its cost, its a long time to have resources tied up and not giving any return until the time its ready. You really couldnt afford to build more than 1 or 2 at a time without a big risk of getting well outnumbered before their completion. Could it work nicely like this or is this logic flawed somehow? Or come up with other/better ways to make a simple hard hitter/damage soaker non-massable.
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I was playing around with the idea of giving the Thor, something like the devourer's role. More specifically:
1. high hit point tank
2. An non-stacking, large splash, low damage, attack slowing "stun" attack
-----The said attack also works against air
3. Special ability to do high damage to one target fairly quickly (for tank line breaking, if this role is still desired)
So basically, you build one thor which then proceed to slow incoming attacks. Both of its abilities contributes to its defensive role as terran units are specialized. It will need high damage output units to be useful thus fits in a mixed terran army and is not useful massed.
However, it doesn't really need this to do its current job of tank (just sufficient hp is enough) and it still isn't that interesting.... (see below for why)
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My personal feelings for disliking the Thor is that it does not feel like a unit that has finesse like the rest of the terran SC1 army. The entire *giant mecha overrunning shit in a slow 1a2a3a* just feels lame compared to all the micro intensive Terran army was known for. If there is some cool micro you can pull off it, it'd be cease being boring but be associated with it.
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Most of this thread has crazy ideas: how about letting the Thor "push" small units like how force fields can push units away or how things gets pushed by SC1 mines and such. Now I'm not sure if it works in the SC2 engine, but it would be a characterful feature for such a unit which interesting potential applications, like pushing zealots out of tank lines and such, leading to clutch saves and such.
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The devourerish attack seems an ok option to me.
The return of slow turning could make it require more micro, though I have no idea how that practically worked with this engine.
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One could make the GtG attack rely on the slow turning, but make the GtA attack beable to fire in all directions (ie make the GtA missiles that can shoot units Behind the Thor)
I think the Thor
1. Should be vulnerable to mass units... therefore always needs support units with it, to deal out enough damage to clear out the mass units (so the main way to counter the Thor is to have units to help clear out the units supporting it....Thor supported by Marauders=kill with Zealot, H. Templar, Zergling, Hydralisk, Marine; Thor supported by Marines, Hellions=kill with H. Templar, Stalkers, Roaches?.. any armored anti-light unit
2. Should be there primarily for anti-Tank/Colossus/Lurker pushes (where it would have to leave its support units behind for a bit, so that the splash doesn't kill them) and Anti-air
3. Would probably be interesting if it were classed as a Structure (immunity to many spells/abilities such as Psi storm)
4. Should be more expensive and have more hp.
5. With 3+4 could give it Lift Off (I wouldn't Convert it from a Factory, I'd Keep it Buildable by the Factory)... it would have to be very slow, lke BW Lift Off.. possibly take double damage while flying.
6. Could give it the other characteristics of a Terran building as well ("burning down" when in red... but instead of burning down it is just inactive) That is similar to the "rebirth" ability.. but it involves repair
Imagine a Thor that is 750 hp, but once it is 250/750 or below, it can't move, shoot, or use abilities. It is effectively 'dead' with 500 damage, but recoverable with an SCV(this makes it worth 'damaging it' without killing it in battle (give it the 500 damage and then shift targets... if you think you can win by doing that.) If not, it slows the Terran push, as they need SCVs to support.
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Independently of balancing, one thing that imo should be changed is the size of the Thor. I've only watched the Thor in action through this BR, so i may be wrong about this, but its size is just like a fucking fat megazord, doesnt fit well to the rest of the terran units.
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Ok, I can brainstorm too!
What if the Thor had no attack, just special abilities? It would be like a caster, only a mechanical caster. So it could, for example:
- deploy into a metal wall (could be useful for blocking medium-sized chokes)
- roll into a ball of steel and crush everything in its path in a certain direction; would lead to some fun moments of units jumping from it's path or running away from it
- explode and send shrapnel and hot oil in all directions
- deploy into a bridge
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Sweden33719 Posts
I don't love those exact examples as they seem somewhat hard to implement, especially the rolling ball of doom one (although deploying into a metal wall is similiar to being a mobile bunker), but I think it's a decent idea to have it be pure support (it would also make it unappealing to just mass produce it). The problem is they'd have to completely redesign the Thor and re-write all Thor lore 
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Sure, but what better time to do that than pre-beta? 
Not sure what you mean by hard to implement - do you mean interface-wise? With the ball of doom you activate the ability and select a point to roll to; with the bridge select a point to bridge to etc. Or did you mean something else?
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Factory-> Thor has a couple of all-in problems. Im not sure if they are deal breakers though.
I will say this. If the Factory could transform into a Thor it would go a long way to teaching new players how to keep making new production buildings. It would also help new players understand how a Terran push worked.
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EPT
