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Duckvillelol
Australia1244 Posts
But yeah that was an interesting little demo, as others here have mentioned there are some things that I really hope they are still playing around with, eg the hellion, and as mentioned too, terran seems far too mobile with that fast medivac and the fact that there's no spidermine placement, so they don't have to go as slow with punch-pushes.. We shall see. Edit: Can I have David Kim on my FPL team? | ||
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Schnake
Germany2819 Posts
"I love nukes" The siege tank in siege mode looks a bit odd, especially the gun. When the armies are moving it is not so easy to see the composition because the big units block vision and all the small units get usurped in the shadows. I hope in high quality or while playing this game, it won't be a problem. Do the psi storms need one half second to conjure? It doesn't look as instant as in SC.  | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 20 2009 13:56 BluzMan wrote: I just CANNOT stand the new pathfinding. Everything clumps, you cannot preserve formation, you cannot effectively keep units spread out. This makes SC2 look and feel vastly inferior to SC even though it's a new and better technology. And meh I barely caught the difference between races. They basically build the same units with slightly varying stats and abilities. PvT was a beatuiful match-up in SC with all the positioning stuff and protoss being really more mobile than terran and now they just both build armies and clash them and I don't even see what makes PvT different from TvP. Oh yes, terran now has even more ways to go gay, but gayness is not what I think should define a race. Most importantly, SC has always been about map control more than anything else. I have not seen a tad of this in that game. Both players just built armies at their bases and sent them to their deaths, there has been no fighting for middle, no containting, just harassment at totally random places and fighting at seemingly random places as well. Funnily enough, neither player built a single static-D, no turrets, no cannons. You usually build those when you need to control a crucial spot and buy yourself time, so it seems like either static defense is underpowered or you always do better by building units than trying to control territory and hold important chokes. And notice how terran did not really rely on his tanks in ground battles. This alone makes it look very very strange. I don't know, maybe this looks worse than it feels when you play it, but for now SC2 unfortunately looks like "just another RTS with good single player". It doesn't look like a worthy successor for me and I hope things are to change in the future. The worst problem of this game is pathfinding, it's awful, you need to have ways of preserving formations and I really think they need to bring magic boxes back. Overall, this BR was much more disappointing than the others even though you could see it coming from the previous PvT BR. Terran has the highest range, but the slowest units in the game. When he's playing without abusing his range and just walks the map like a protoss would instead of fighting for territory you could say this game is broken. When a race defined by high range doesn't actually use it, it's a design error. I also feel that terran pretty much entirely lost it's racial identity. It now feels more like a collection of randomly taken units that just roll over the enemy with stats like hp and damage whereas in SC terran is a slow, but certain military machine of death with impenetrable defenses. It has a certain feel, while what I've seen in SC2 just has stats. + Show Spoiler + And FFS remove than excrement known as Thor, it looks bad and does nothing special. I *sort of* agree, but then I think back to what beta TvP in SC1 must have looked like... But yeah, I really hated the Thor+Marauder vs Colossi+Stalker battle - same shit on both sides. I think it'd be really sad if terran mech were to completely die with the loss of the vulture... Not fun to have every matchup play out the same way. | ||
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 20 2009 11:03 MuffinDude wrote: Medivac has too much health point imo. Stalkers took forever to kill that thing. On October 20 2009 14:05 vRoOk wrote: JESUS CHRSIT Medivacs take like 20 hits to kill.. wtf.. IMBA That's not the problem- you could see in the video that Medivacs have 150 HP, exactly the same amount as Dropships have in SC1. The difference is that Stalkers deal half as much damage as Dragoons; Dragoons deal 20e damage, Stalkers deal 5x2 damage (used to have 4x2 bonus vs. armored, that was removed and replaced with more HP). If you notice, Stalkers took forever to kill just about anything in that video; the initial Hellion harass, ghosts with nukes, medivacs, the second tank in the cliffed tank drop. Only when the Protoss player had 10+ Stalkers together did they kill stuff relatively quickly. A dragoon shooting a tank will deal 19 damage at zero upgrades, and 22 damage with both units at full upgrades. A dragoon shooting a Battlecruiser will deal 17 damage at zero upgrades, and 20 damage with both units at full upgrades (not that you ever see BCs in PvT, but bear with me). A stalker shooting a tank will deal (5-1)x2 = 8 damage per attack, whether both sides are at zero upgrades or full upgrades. A stalker shooting a battlecruiser will deal (5-3)x2 = 4 damage per attack, whether both sides are at zero upgrades or full upgrades. Yeah, Stalkers don't do a whole lot of damage. | ||
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DarkShadowz
Sweden321 Posts
-Storms are very much dodgable even with lings in SC. If you react fast. Now it strikes so fast and with terran going bio it seems even stronger overall. I would rather want storm to be insta like in SC with longer duration. -I want the helion out or that it should get spider mines. Mech won't be viable unless they get acces to mines. It would also add lots of micro/strategic depth both ways. Right now mech just isn't viable. They lack a cheap unit that can really soften up the opponent/harras better. -I think the game speed is a bit too fast. Some tihngs don't look smooth and many units don't have the same dignity and powerful feel as they had in the original. Mainly the tank for me. But also the reaper, collusus. -Lack of static powers makes it too much of a-move action from both teams. Instead of smart positioning from one side and intelligent breaking from the other. A lot more tactics viable that way and dynamic game play. This all come down to Terran not having mines and tanks in numbers. It's totally awesome that you micro and play each MU so differently in SC. In SC2 it looks like you will kind of play many MUs in similair fashion just with different units. NOT exciting. -Nukes were quickly build and maybe the medivac/ghost combination is too powerfull. (speculation of course) You don't have much time to react and might only have a few workers, or a coupple of units near by that can attack the ghost in time. The medivac heals soo fast that you might need more units to attack it then you cna possibly bring forth in time. Maybe they will tweak that/make it unable to get healed while nuking. -High ground is still gay. You can't attack uphill at all and once you can see highground you attack like normal and high ground is suddenly no advantage. Makes it really stupid and not dynamic at all. Greatly neglects the power of positioning and so on. You can plan your evntire game plan aorund taking certain bases that have high gorund in SC, in SC2 that option won't be present, sad imo. -The thos is gay and should never have been in the game in the first place. Same goes for the mothership. This is waht I cna think of for now. Still the game looks betetr and better  | ||
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
the new BR makes the game look like it plays identical to the original, except slightly less dynamic. IMO theres just too many units/unit roles that are straight out of the original game. | ||
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SouL)R(MizaR
Australia111 Posts
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lynx.oblige
Sierra Leone2268 Posts
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betaben
681 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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micropede
United States47 Posts
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SouL)R(MizaR
Australia111 Posts
On October 20 2009 21:37 micropede wrote: protoss buildings don't catch on fire before blowing up anymore? Wow i just realised this the planetary fortress never caught on fire they need to keep fire as a mechanic. Thors/ultra are still probably a little to big for my liking and hellions look like crap. High templars need a trail or at least more movement | ||
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Icks
France186 Posts
Group 1 say: "It's StarCraft 1 in 3D." Group 2 say: "Remove Thor, remove Hellions. Stalkers dont deal enough damage, make them like goons. Remove mothership. Psi Storm too quick. Nuke too easy.Game too fast." and they could add "Plz make us StarCraft 1 in 3D." Obviously, Blizzard cant satisfy everyone. But i'm more a "group 1" person. Just make a good game, who cares about old mechanics... The purpose is to add new ones. Ok, some of them need to be tuned, but do not ask to remove everything that is new -_- | ||
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Drk_ItachiX
Japan113 Posts
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Zato-1
Chile4253 Posts
On October 20 2009 21:50 Icks wrote: Same comments since the annoucement of the game developpement. Group 1 say: "It's StarCraft 1 in 3D." Group 2 say: "Remove Thor, remove Hellions. Stalkers dont deal enough damage, make them like goons. Remove mothership. Psi Storm too quick. Nuke too easy.Game too fast." The damage nerf to the Stalker was very recent, and mine is the only post that directly compares Stalker damage to Dragoon damage, so I'll take it to mean you were referring to me. I don't think Stalkers should be more like Dragoons. They are the SC2 Dragoon-equivalent in many ways (same required tech, same build cost, also a ranged mechanical unit that attacks ground and air), so people will inevitably compare them with the more familiar Dragoon. If anything, I think the Stalker could use a little help vs. air units. Other than the Archon (which will never be an ideal anti-air unit because it's big, slow and has a short attack range), Protoss anti-air seems somewhat puny: Phoenix deal 12 damage per attack and Stalkers deal 10- it seems underwhelming when compared to Vikings which deal 20 per attack (+20 vs. Massive) and hydras which deal about as much damage as Stalkers but cost half as much. | ||
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
But there were a few things that came to my mind... Storms look cool but impossible to dodge/much too strong. Tank splash animation is too big. The "dropship" micro looks kind of imbalanced... what if a progamer had control of, let's say, 3 ships at a time. Would off kill every single probe in the game. People saying it looks like different units with same attacks fighting against each other I have to agree with, it looks more like PvP/TvT than a TvP, but hey this is not starcraft 1 it's starcraft 2. But I agree it really takes some jizz off of the final blow. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 20 2009 21:50 Icks wrote: Same comments since the annoucement of the game developpement. Group 1 say: "It's StarCraft 1 in 3D." Group 2 say: "Remove Thor, remove Hellions. Stalkers dont deal enough damage, make them like goons. Remove mothership. Psi Storm too quick. Nuke too easy.Game too fast." and they could add "Plz make us StarCraft 1 in 3D." Obviously, Blizzard cant satisfy everyone. But i'm more a "group 1" person. Just make a good game, who cares about old mechanics... The purpose is to add new ones. Ok, some of them need to be tuned, but do not ask to remove everything that is new -_- +1. I am seeing alot of people complaining about the new stuff and not really giving anything much of a chance because its not in sc1. I think people need to give it more of a chance and realize there is a reason this is called sc2 not sc1 in 3D -_- | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
But overall game doesn't look like it has to be. This man described all i want to say rather well: On October 20 2009 13:56 BluzMan wrote: I just CANNOT stand the new pathfinding. Everything clumps, you cannot preserve formation, you cannot effectively keep units spread out. This makes SC2 look and feel vastly inferior to SC even though it's a new and better technology. And meh I barely caught the difference between races. They basically build the same units with slightly varying stats and abilities. PvT was a beatuiful match-up in SC with all the positioning stuff and protoss being really more mobile than terran and now they just both build armies and clash them and I don't even see what makes PvT different from TvP. Oh yes, terran now has even more ways to go gay, but gayness is not what I think should define a race. Most importantly, SC has always been about map control more than anything else. I have not seen a tad of this in that game. Both players just built armies at their bases and sent them to their deaths, there has been no fighting for middle, no containting, just harassment at totally random places and fighting at seemingly random places as well. Funnily enough, neither player built a single static-D, no turrets, no cannons. You usually build those when you need to control a crucial spot and buy yourself time, so it seems like either static defense is underpowered or you always do better by building units than trying to control territory and hold important chokes. And notice how terran did not really rely on his tanks in ground battles. This alone makes it look very very strange. I don't know, maybe this looks worse than it feels when you play it, but for now SC2 unfortunately looks like "just another RTS with good single player". It doesn't look like a worthy successor for me and I hope things are to change in the future. The worst problem of this game is pathfinding, it's awful, you need to have ways of preserving formations and I really think they need to bring magic boxes back. Overall, this BR was much more disappointing than the others even though you could see it coming from the previous PvT BR. Terran has the highest range, but the slowest units in the game. When he's playing without abusing his range and just walks the map like a protoss would instead of fighting for territory you could say this game is broken. When a race defined by high range doesn't actually use it, it's a design error. I also feel that terran pretty much entirely lost it's racial identity. It now feels more like a collection of randomly taken units that just roll over the enemy with stats like hp and damage whereas in SC terran is a slow, but certain military machine of death with impenetrable defenses. It has a certain feel, while what I've seen in SC2 just has stats. + Show Spoiler + And FFS remove than excrement known as Thor, it looks bad and does nothing special. What can i add to this? I just want to show the path that Blizzard should follow. In SC1 there was 2D and many pathfindings looked OK for it. SC2 became more realistic because of 3D and it need more advantage in pathfinding. Massive units should be slooooooow I love pathfinding of Banshee/Medivac/Viking, it fit very well. I like pathfinding of Marine/Zealot/Stalker because they are little. But what we see with Thor? Dr-dr-left-right-left-right. Thor should be sloooooow and massive but he behave like a fly on a window. Take a look at the Colossus, his head slowly (could be more slowly to be honest) turns like it should be. Thor should behave the same way. Same with Terran buildings, they fly as fast as little observer. Make them damn slowly and it will look nice! And finally Marauder should be slowly too! When Marauder attacks under stimpack it reminds me of fireworks. Make Marauder more slowly and remove stimpack that they could fit their role of Infantry/Mechanic unit. Massive units should be dumb How Marine or Hellion can push Tank or Thor? In SC2 little units push massive units if they come near them. It's stupid... Tank should stay on his place while marine should think what to do with it. It's a MEN WAR. Why massive Siege Tank should give way to little Marine as if Marine was a girl. A car should be a car A car units like Hellion or Tank should behave like a car. How a car could turn without moving? Hellion can. Hellion/Tank should move like posted above: On October 20 2009 15:58 PokePill wrote: this is how I wish the hellion moved... The Protoss and The Terran shouldn't be The Zerg When i see massive Protoss or Terran army it reminds me of The Zerg swarm. All units in this swarm moves and turn simultaneously like a robots. Also they are located too closely to each other. How can they see something if they look to somebody's back? As somebody said TvP doesn't differ from PvT now. And more, all match ups will be the same if all units will behave the same way (like a swarm). All this things should be somehow changed so Great Game could be done. And i hope Blizzard is working on it now | ||
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Musoeun
United States4324 Posts
I'm far more concerned about the basic look and feel of the game than balance issues. IMO the important questions are: are the graphics solid, are the mechanics relatively simple, and does it look "interesting" (of course that's hard to define)., if Starcraft has taught us anything, it's that Blizzard will put the game through alpha, beta, testing, and release it... ...and people will promptly make hash of however it was supposed to balance. For instance, this report from eternity ago (the beta tournament) has m&m/tank being used against Protoss - but heavy metal (it's lost the heavy now it's so standard) didn't show up that long after release. Maybe Starcraft II will undergo this effect less than Starcraft, but I doubt it. While old SC players may find it hard to break out of the mold (even look at this thread for comments about how we love seeing "the old timings", or the general silliness about preserving the muta bug), Blizzard fan imports from WC3 and next-big-game imports from all over the place are going to look at the game completely differently and likely rip our ideas to shreds. Even in the pro scene, I'd assume some will try to adapt old techniques, but others will straight-up try to "break" the game. That said, there are some things I don't like. - I don't like the Hellion in its current incarnation - it's kind of a goofy-looking unit with nothing to distinguish it. - I'm not sold on the nullifier, either - I guess it's useful, but it looks like something out of the Matrix, not from Starcraft. - I feel like the Colossus is occupying a space held for most of its existence by units like the valk, DA, queen - sure it's cool but it's not durable enough to justify building it even to do what it does best. - the macro mechanics. Gimmicks are bad. These feel like gimmicks, except possibly for the queen. I do like the Thor - giant mecha are cool. Sorry if this bothers people. :D But I don't see why the Thor's any worse to have than a battlecruiser. | ||
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Jackal03
Brazil7469 Posts
People just need to realize that this will be different game, and it will play differently (hopefully, very different from SC1). SC1 is a jewel that may never be surpassed | ||
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