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umm.. Have you played a BLIZZARD game since 1997?? Warcraft 3 functioned 100% with its ladder. SC2 will be exactly the same.
CEVO/CAL/ESL is all FPS games, They failed horribly for RTS.. I should know, being in the CAL-M (think it was main, or CAL-I, i forget) for War3 and they stopped it midway thru the season pretty much cause no one was playing the games. Its a poor system, Everything will be run by BLIZZARD in SC2, none of this outsider ladder crap.
I'll call you what you deserve to be called, and without proving any facts and arguing for the sale of arguing, That is childish behavior, kid. Show me some PROOF that CEVO/CAL/UGS/ESL will be running SC2, and that Blizzard ladder will be "irrelevant"..
I dont think you have even played Warcraft 3, have you? That is the most logical comparison to what Blizzard is doing, since it is a Blizzard RTS release that was somewhat recent. They didn't have clan-league support yet, but their AMM system was THE top form of War3 competitive play until about the start of 2008 when they stopped monitoring hackers from it. If you were anybody on the War3 scene, you were in the top 20 on the BLIZZARD run Warcraft 3 ladders. Moon, Remind, Sky, Shy, Focus, etc were all at the top of the BNet asia ladder as recent as this past year, how is that irrelevant?
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On August 27 2009 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net .... 25 pages. TWENTY FIVE GOD DAMNED PAGES. I am so fucking sick of restating my position because people have selective god damned reading. No, I'm not afraid of losing. PGTour season 6 and 7, I played a combined 800 games, finishing the seasons at A- and A+ respectively. I dodged nobody, I rematched anyone who asked, and asked anyone who beat me for a rematch. But when I wanted to play some off-races, I created a new account.
Why? Because my protoss is fucking A rank and my Zerg is like D+ -_- Do I care one shit about losing to the other A ranks? NO. But losing with my main account means it goes down in rank, meaning I can't play as good players (as protoss) without going back up in rank, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of my time.
So I make a new ID. What if I'm Slayers'Boxer and I'm a little bit tired of everyone messaging me or friend requesting me as soon as I log onto battle.net? Maybe I just want to play some damned 2v2s with a friend, and not have to deal with being *THE* slayers'boxer? Make a new ID. Make a new ID, but keep the ELL of your master account, I don't care if that means getting raped a few times with your new race. What if I just want to make a new ID because I don't like the way my old one goes with the new clan I joined? For instance, FrozenArbiter does not fit very well with the tag iD. does it? iD.FA does. number9dream doesn't go well with Dream.t, right? Dream.t)PltO does. Furthermore, why should I have to play custom games when I could play AMM? You have NO WAY of knowing you are matched with a player of equal skill in customgames, and even if I'm just gonna fuck around I'd of course prefer to fuck around with someone about as good as me. Having a separate ELL / ranking for each race solves the first issue, but doesn't begin to take care of issue #2. And no, /dnd is not the answer, ok? You want some people to be able to talk to you, you want to meet new people - you just don't want to meet all of bloody battle.net at once.
Okay so I did read "25 PAGES ZOMG." And my point still sticks. I bolded your reasoning and really its no different from the one you quoted of me. You don't want to waste your time, but you feel that its okay to waste a noobs time steamrolling them? Unless you're trying to say that your off race is so bad that you lose all RTS knowledge and suddenly become a 30-50apm clueless noob, then you should just go about off racing in a different manner than ladder rated games.
I understand that for a specific situation it might be an inconvenience, but I am arguing that its a greater convenience for the majority (casuals and the like).
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A reminder, FPS and RTS competitive systems are TOTALLY different.. What is more work, Setting up every single account on a website, playing the game on bnet, then uploading your replay on ESL or CEVO, or Going on SC2, Clicking "Play game" and everything is done for you??
CEVO/ESL/CAL will have a very small if not non-existant SC2 competitive division. The only thing I see from any of those sites, are Clan leagues, which dont reward single players, which is the whole process of team-less players getting on teams in the first place..
Just face it, Regardless of what happens, SC2's ladder will be the backbone of the whole SC2 community, Everyone will start there, climb the SC2 ladder then get picked up by the top teams for league play. Anyone with half a brain understands that.
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United States22883 Posts
The WC3 competitive scene is infantile if you're not at the very top, that's why it died in CAL. CEVO offers $$$. Like more $$$ for you to buy cool new sunglasses or another necklace.
Why do you think a ladder is fundamentally better than a league format? Or do you not know the difference? Why is it that WC3L and Clanbase work perfectly fine for teams, but you don't think it can be extended to individual format? Especially when SC2 is going to have much better sponsorship than WC3 does, therefore more tournaments and better prizes.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 27 2009 07:25 Skyze wrote:
A reminder, FPS and RTS competitive systems are TOTALLY different.. What is more work, Setting up every single account on a website, playing the game on bnet, then uploading your replay on ESL or CEVO, or Going on SC2, Clicking "Play game" and everything is done for you??
If you're content with a ladder format, then have at it. If you want a system where you're still allowed to practice your shitty D Zerg and only having your A Protoss counted, and be offered cash prizes for online tournies (CEVO is $7,500 for 1.6 P league atm, per season) then you join a league.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 27 2009 07:24 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net .... 25 pages. TWENTY FIVE GOD DAMNED PAGES. I am so fucking sick of restating my position because people have selective god damned reading. No, I'm not afraid of losing. PGTour season 6 and 7, I played a combined 800 games, finishing the seasons at A- and A+ respectively. I dodged nobody, I rematched anyone who asked, and asked anyone who beat me for a rematch. But when I wanted to play some off-races, I created a new account.
Why? Because my protoss is fucking A rank and my Zerg is like D+ -_- Do I care one shit about losing to the other A ranks? NO. But losing with my main account means it goes down in rank, meaning I can't play as good players (as protoss) without going back up in rank, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of my time.
So I make a new ID. What if I'm Slayers'Boxer and I'm a little bit tired of everyone messaging me or friend requesting me as soon as I log onto battle.net? Maybe I just want to play some damned 2v2s with a friend, and not have to deal with being *THE* slayers'boxer? Make a new ID. Make a new ID, but keep the ELL of your master account, I don't care if that means getting raped a few times with your new race. What if I just want to make a new ID because I don't like the way my old one goes with the new clan I joined? For instance, FrozenArbiter does not fit very well with the tag iD. does it? iD.FA does. number9dream doesn't go well with Dream.t, right? Dream.t)PltO does. Furthermore, why should I have to play custom games when I could play AMM? You have NO WAY of knowing you are matched with a player of equal skill in customgames, and even if I'm just gonna fuck around I'd of course prefer to fuck around with someone about as good as me. Having a separate ELL / ranking for each race solves the first issue, but doesn't begin to take care of issue #2. And no, /dnd is not the answer, ok? You want some people to be able to talk to you, you want to meet new people - you just don't want to meet all of bloody battle.net at once. Okay so I did read "25 PAGES ZOMG." And my point still sticks. I bolded your reasoning and really its no different from the one you quoted of me. You don't want to waste your time, but you feel that its okay to waste a noobs time steamrolling them? Unless you're trying to say that your off race is so bad that you lose all RTS knowledge and suddenly become a 30-50apm clueless noob, then you should just go about off racing in a different manner than ladder rated games. I understand that for a specific situation it might be an inconvenience, but I am arguing that its a greater convenience for the majority (casuals and the like).
... I'm saying I think any new account you make should start at a higher ELL rank - perhaps at your highest achieved ELL -_- All I want is to be able to play with my non-main races without dropping 200 ranks on the ladder
Even if you can't do what I suggested (let people start new accounts with a higher than zero ELL) then I actually do not think it's a big deal if someone can make, let's say 3 accounts per Real ID.
It's not like they can newbbash for very long that way, and you can easily flag any account that auto-leaves any game to drop in rank.
+ Noobs will have to deal with getting stomped at the start of every season anyway, since everything resets..
I have NO interest in steamrolling noobs lol
Nothing more boring in the world.
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8748 Posts
Here are the two possible solutions I now think are good:
1. The standard ladder is like iccup insofar as it's a great place for competition and practice but the only advantage to having a high ranked account is instant access to high level play. Ideally, there are constantly other ladders and competitions running so that, in the long run, high level players won't need this standard ladder and won't care about it. Important practice is played with teammates and important competitions are played elsewhere. They can mess with other races on the standard ladder and it does not matter. They could get high ranked on it again with a day's worth of games anyway.
2. Let each player have a separate ranking for each race (+ random). Some fancy coding might be necessary for race pickers. Or maybe Blizzard can just tell them that they're not supposed to be able to pick their race based on their opponent's race 
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On August 27 2009 07:24 Medzo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net .... 25 pages. TWENTY FIVE GOD DAMNED PAGES. I am so fucking sick of restating my position because people have selective god damned reading. No, I'm not afraid of losing. PGTour season 6 and 7, I played a combined 800 games, finishing the seasons at A- and A+ respectively. I dodged nobody, I rematched anyone who asked, and asked anyone who beat me for a rematch. But when I wanted to play some off-races, I created a new account.
Why? Because my protoss is fucking A rank and my Zerg is like D+ -_- Do I care one shit about losing to the other A ranks? NO. But losing with my main account means it goes down in rank, meaning I can't play as good players (as protoss) without going back up in rank, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of my time.
So I make a new ID. What if I'm Slayers'Boxer and I'm a little bit tired of everyone messaging me or friend requesting me as soon as I log onto battle.net? Maybe I just want to play some damned 2v2s with a friend, and not have to deal with being *THE* slayers'boxer? Make a new ID. Make a new ID, but keep the ELL of your master account, I don't care if that means getting raped a few times with your new race. What if I just want to make a new ID because I don't like the way my old one goes with the new clan I joined? For instance, FrozenArbiter does not fit very well with the tag iD. does it? iD.FA does. number9dream doesn't go well with Dream.t, right? Dream.t)PltO does. Furthermore, why should I have to play custom games when I could play AMM? You have NO WAY of knowing you are matched with a player of equal skill in customgames, and even if I'm just gonna fuck around I'd of course prefer to fuck around with someone about as good as me. Having a separate ELL / ranking for each race solves the first issue, but doesn't begin to take care of issue #2. And no, /dnd is not the answer, ok? You want some people to be able to talk to you, you want to meet new people - you just don't want to meet all of bloody battle.net at once. Okay so I did read "25 PAGES ZOMG." And my point still sticks. I bolded your reasoning and really its no different from the one you quoted of me. You don't want to waste your time, but you feel that its okay to waste a noobs time steamrolling them? Unless you're trying to say that your off race is so bad that you lose all RTS knowledge and suddenly become a 30-50apm clueless noob, then you should just go about off racing in a different manner than ladder rated games. I understand that for a specific situation it might be an inconvenience, but I am arguing that its a greater convenience for the majority (casuals and the like). If you can't offrace with separate rating, you waste your time every interval in which you offrace and then have work your rating back up. If the offrace rating is separate, you're only going to waste the time of noobs once because once you're in the appropriate range you stay there.
You can't stop noobstomping as a whole, but it should be easy to strictly limit how many noobstomping games someone can play before they're placed in their appropriate skill bracket.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 27 2009 06:24 ManWithCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Anyways I think FA's system would be more reasonable then the current one however the idea of excluding match ups is not a good idea for a truly competitive ladder.
Why? You still play vs every race in my system, you just don't have to play PvP if you'd rather play TvP. PvZ PvT TvP PvR I play vs all races. If any matchup is so boring that nobody ends up playing it, isn't it a good thing that you don't have to ;p? For starters I don't think with all of the things added to each race will allow the game to have boring/bland match ups nor do I think blizzard would allow it this time around. Second tournaments are gonna be playing a much larger part of the game and you're gonna eventually run into issues and have to play match ups that you don't want which will obviously be a weaker match up for you as you haven't been playing it often or at all. So even if you're the better player you could end up losing which is not what it should be especially since we have no idea how serious some of these tournaments could be.
Someone is always gonna prefer one matchup over another, why force them to not play?
It's their decision to run into potentially bad situations in tournaments (in fact, this is one of the reasons I stopped playing TvP, since it put me in an awkward position vs random players).
On August 27 2009 06:19 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 06:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm 100% sure that you are wrong.
If for nothing else, then because they will invite the top finishers to blizzcon, like they've done for WC3 for years, in addition to the ladder finals.
In addition to that, with no LAN and presumably better support than in the past, I think the ladder will be where you play for at least the first few years. Blizzard could as easily invite from private leagues, just like they did with GOM finalists, and it surely won't be the only major tournament (Blizzcon is just exhibition matches anyways.) Why don't you think there will be real leagues? Competitive play needs to differentiate between practice and matches and ladders don't do that. They're all about grading practice. That's the real problem if you don't want to be graded for trying new things. Smurfing is just an inefficient workaround. If you're going to use ladders, they should just be a preliminary cut-off point because of size limitations with running lower level leagues. At the top 20%, or whatever cut-off chosen, the numbers will be perfectly suited for league play.
If we were talking about SC, maybe they'd do that. But this is SC2, given all that they've done, I'm pretty sure they aren't interested in having someone else run their shit.
And I think that's how they do it for WC3 now - top X% each server is invited to invite ladder. Still doesn't change much.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 27 2009 06:27 Skyze wrote:
FA, while I respect your position as an admin here, I will have to point out afew things I find totally wrong in your thread.
First off, in regards to changing name on clan/tag purposes, if you played War3, You would see they had your clan tag on the side of the chat room/screen. I imagine the idea that one ID would have would mean it will show your clan tag when you enter games and such (I believe it already did that on the load screen for war3 but I could be mistaken, its been awhile).. So while I would choose the name Skyze, while my team on bnet would be rS, so I dont have to make rS.Skyze, because if I did that, in the game/channels, my name would be rS.Skyze [rS] , where if it was just Skyze, it would just be Skyze [rS].. If I happen to leave them, and that day join ESC, my name would be Skyze [ESC] . If you used your name, under my team itd show up as FrozenArbiter [rS] in games/chat.. That is what I am understanding and makes the most sense for blizzard to do (basically how War3 had it)
I know this - but as far as I know, players STILL add their clan tags to their name when they play (at the very least they do on LAN, which wont exist in SC2... so they would HAVE to add support for your clan tag to show up in game somehow or they get no exposure) when they play.
Also, I don't want my ID to be FrozenArbiter [Dream.t], that looks stupid :[ Different names look good with different tags.
Also if I am mistaken, I thought the whole purpose of this new friends list/ IM system was to block out non-friends from constantly whispering you. So if THE Slayers_Boxer didnt want random msgs, he would do like a /dnd that would block out anyone NOT on his Friends list. How do people deal with it now on iccup (other than smurfing?) like, We know the times that Mondragon is playing his clanleague matchs, why doesnt 100 people just blast msgs his way during the game to get their name on the stream?? DND solves. And with the seperation of friends lists, it should be fine.
Yes, it's a fine solution during single games! But not for general bnet use - I have no interest in never getting a chance to meet anyone new due to being drowned in useless chatter the minute I turn off /dnd.
I'm also not interested in being unable to whisper anyone who is not on your friendslist but that's another story.
Im on the fence about this whole subject, in one regard it is good but I do understand the offracing argument, although I must say thats the only one that I see as a legitament concern at the moment. I do like the idea of being able to 2-3 IDs, but whatever your ELL accumulates to on one account, will tie to the other account, that way if you are indeed A+ protoss, and you start your 2nd account with zerg, even though you will start at D, you will be matched up against D players who are like 7-0 and high ELL also, rather than the 2-40 D players. That way, you still have to climb but you aren't trampling total newbs in the process, and you can make 3-4 accounts per CDkey, one for each race, but no more (unless you delete all stats and change name from one of those 4)
The main issue with War3 ELL system lately has been actually FINDING games with the high ELL's, so that is the main concern I have for SC2's AMM, If someone really good goes 100-0 and the #2 ranked player is 70-30, it should try to find 90%+ people within their rank for the first 10 minutes but after that, start opening it up to potentially anyone also searching for a game, after a set number of minutes (like 10).. because waiting over 15 minutes to find a game at the top of the ladder is bullshit.
Only problem with carrying over ELL (which is something I've been a proponent of), is that it may have you playing people ranked much higher than you, who would lose more from a loss than they would gain from a win (presumably, I'm not sure how the system works, maybe each win/loss gives you the same amount of points).
Oh and, uhm, I never ban anyone I'm arguing with, so don't worry lol
In fact, some would say I never ban anyone at all. But that's a filthy lie.
I've banned people. Maybe even several.
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Jibba do you even read my posts? I say LEAGUES are totally different than ladders.
The SC2 blizzard run ladder will be the backbone of everything, much like the War3 one was before they stopped supporting it. I said there will be outside leagues like WC3L, but in the end, the WC3L teams are made up by the top of the SC2 ladder. Thats the whole point.
The SC2 ladder will be the ONLY ladder, there will be no iccup or CAL/ESL/CEVO. Leagues? as in five 1v1 matchs in a clan-league format, Sure, there will be those, but thats not what we're talking about. We're talking about the SC2 ladder. The SC2 ladder will not be "irrelevant" like you put it, just like ICCup isnt irrelevant to the SC scene right now outside of korea.
Outside of Korea, where else can foreigners meet to play eachother in a semi-controlled (hack-free) envirnment outside of their close practice partners?? Iccup. Now in SC2, since blizzard will have an AMM system that is hack free, the SC2 ladder takes that spot, and not only for foreigners, but for pretty much everyone including koreans until they develope their own SC2 private gaming houses (A-level teams like SKT, CJ, etc) but everyone outside of there, will still play majority of SC2 ladder.
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On August 27 2009 08:25 Skyze wrote:
Jibba do you even read my posts? I say LEAGUES are totally different than ladders.
The SC2 blizzard run ladder will be the backbone of everything, much like the War3 one was before they stopped supporting it. I said there will be outside leagues like WC3L, but in the end, the WC3L teams are made up by the top of the SC2 ladder. Thats the whole point.
The SC2 ladder will be the ONLY ladder, there will be no iccup or CAL/ESL/CEVO. Leagues? as in five 1v1 matchs in a clan-league format, Sure, there will be those, but thats not what we're talking about. We're talking about the SC2 ladder. The SC2 ladder will not be "irrelevant" like you put it, just like ICCup isnt irrelevant to the SC scene right now outside of korea.
Outside of Korea, where else can foreigners meet to play eachother in a semi-controlled (hack-free) envirnment outside of their close practice partners?? Iccup. Now in SC2, since blizzard will have an AMM system that is hack free, the SC2 ladder takes that spot, and not only for foreigners, but for pretty much everyone including koreans until they develope their own SC2 private gaming houses (A-level teams like SKT, CJ, etc) but everyone outside of there, will still play majority of SC2 ladder.
No. The ladder will never be "the place to play" competitively. Leagues will take precedence (as they always do) with popular mainstream games that are desirable for sponsors to sponsor. They may be used as a qualifier, but the "GRAND FINALS" are never going to be 2 anonymous players being AMM'd against each other.
Edit: Good players are just going to play where the money is. If Blizzard throws enough of it down, then maybe they will stay on the ladder, but historically, that isn't usually the case.
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It seems most of the issues are VERY simply solved by allowing people to change the ID that goes with their account.
As for the other ones.
Ladder=all non-custom AMM games that you play against other humans in SC2
And it should stay that way because that helps ensure that the AMM matches up people of near equal skill.
That is what it needs to do, it might need to be less equal when wait times are long, but that would be needed anyways
Now Tournaments could use something separate from the ladder so that only certain game counted in their ranking (although initial ladder might be a good starting point) That way if you are in a tournament, "practice" games won't affect your tournament results, although they will affect your ladder rank for future tournaments.
The problem of "Off-racing" Could be solved by having a race specific ladder rating. You would probably need a system where if you win/lose a game as Protoss that gives/loses you 100 points, you should get/lose fraction of that number of points in your Terran and Zerg ladder levels (indicating the 'general' part of your skill). So that an A+ pure Protoss' first Zerg game would not match them against a D- pure Protoss' first Terran game.
This is probably more of a concern at higher levels though.
.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 27 2009 08:33 keV. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 08:25 Skyze wrote:
Jibba do you even read my posts? I say LEAGUES are totally different than ladders.
The SC2 blizzard run ladder will be the backbone of everything, much like the War3 one was before they stopped supporting it. I said there will be outside leagues like WC3L, but in the end, the WC3L teams are made up by the top of the SC2 ladder. Thats the whole point.
The SC2 ladder will be the ONLY ladder, there will be no iccup or CAL/ESL/CEVO. Leagues? as in five 1v1 matchs in a clan-league format, Sure, there will be those, but thats not what we're talking about. We're talking about the SC2 ladder. The SC2 ladder will not be "irrelevant" like you put it, just like ICCup isnt irrelevant to the SC scene right now outside of korea.
Outside of Korea, where else can foreigners meet to play eachother in a semi-controlled (hack-free) envirnment outside of their close practice partners?? Iccup. Now in SC2, since blizzard will have an AMM system that is hack free, the SC2 ladder takes that spot, and not only for foreigners, but for pretty much everyone including koreans until they develope their own SC2 private gaming houses (A-level teams like SKT, CJ, etc) but everyone outside of there, will still play majority of SC2 ladder. No. The ladder will never be "the place to play" competitively. Leagues will take precedence (as they always do) with popular mainstream games that are desirable for sponsors to sponsor. They may be used as a qualifier, but the "GRAND FINALS" are never going to be 2 anonymous players being AMM'd against each other. Edit: Good players are just going to play where the money is. If Blizzard throws enough of it down, then maybe they will stay on the ladder, but historically, that isn't usually the case.
Sigh, it's going to be the place to play for competitive practice.
I don't understand why anyone feels the need to drag in 1 day/week leagues (or hell, things as big as the OSL) into this.
The Bnet ladder is gonna take about the same role as ICCUP. That is, the competitive go to place for more or less everyone outside the Korean pro houses, and hell even a lot of those guys play on ICCUP.
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On August 27 2009 08:45 Krikkitone wrote:
Ladder=all non-custom AMM games that you play against other humans in
Pretty sure you have the option to play non-ranked games. it is almost a requirement for experimentation of builds and practicing off-races. I don't believe for a second that they would not have non-ranked games. Also, if you want to play with friends who are far outside your skill range, they would need that to not effect rank too.
Most likey (IMO) if you click quickmatch you will be placed in your recomended ladder. Or if you choose to you can either pick a ladder of your choice to play on or choose 'non-ranked game' to see a list or make non-ranked games.
As far as I am aware there is a limited map pool for each ladder season. Ladder maps are generally chosen for their relatively good race balances. I doubt they would allow the ranking of any match that was on a map outside that seasons map pool, as it may be very unbalanced.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Eh, I doubt they would have an "unranked" AMM - it goes completely against their design philosophy of "too many buckets = bad".
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On August 27 2009 09:07 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 08:45 Krikkitone wrote:
Ladder=all non-custom AMM games that you play against other humans in Pretty sure you have the option to play non-ranked games. it is almost a requirement for experimentation of builds and practicing off-races. I don't believe for a second that they would not have non-ranked games. Also, if you want to play with friends who are far outside your skill range, they would need that to not effect rank too. Most likey (IMO) if you click quickmatch you will be placed in your recomended ladder. Or if you choose to you can either pick a ladder of your choice to play on or choose 'non-ranked game' to see a list or make non-ranked games. As far as I am aware there is a limited map pool for each ladder season. Ladder maps are generally chosen for their relatively good race balances. I doubt they would allow the ranking of any match that was on a map outside that seasons map pool, as it may be very unbalanced.
"unranked" games would only be non-AMM ones, ie ones where you chose all your allies and opponents yourself.
If you are playing as a team with your much lower ranked friend and your opponents/some allies are chosen by AMM, then you have a "team rank" based on your individual ranks.
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United States47024 Posts
I'm curious as to what the effect might be of allowing unrated play on the ranked ladder (e.g. the AMM still pairs you with opponents playing ranked games, and they still gain/lose a number of points appropriate to your rank, but you don't gain/lose any points for playing an unrated game)?
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On August 27 2009 07:53 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 07:24 Medzo wrote:On August 27 2009 05:51 FrozenArbiter wrote:Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net .... 25 pages. TWENTY FIVE GOD DAMNED PAGES. I am so fucking sick of restating my position because people have selective god damned reading. No, I'm not afraid of losing. PGTour season 6 and 7, I played a combined 800 games, finishing the seasons at A- and A+ respectively. I dodged nobody, I rematched anyone who asked, and asked anyone who beat me for a rematch. But when I wanted to play some off-races, I created a new account.
Why? Because my protoss is fucking A rank and my Zerg is like D+ -_- Do I care one shit about losing to the other A ranks? NO. But losing with my main account means it goes down in rank, meaning I can't play as good players (as protoss) without going back up in rank, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of my time.
So I make a new ID. What if I'm Slayers'Boxer and I'm a little bit tired of everyone messaging me or friend requesting me as soon as I log onto battle.net? Maybe I just want to play some damned 2v2s with a friend, and not have to deal with being *THE* slayers'boxer? Make a new ID. Make a new ID, but keep the ELL of your master account, I don't care if that means getting raped a few times with your new race. What if I just want to make a new ID because I don't like the way my old one goes with the new clan I joined? For instance, FrozenArbiter does not fit very well with the tag iD. does it? iD.FA does. number9dream doesn't go well with Dream.t, right? Dream.t)PltO does. Furthermore, why should I have to play custom games when I could play AMM? You have NO WAY of knowing you are matched with a player of equal skill in customgames, and even if I'm just gonna fuck around I'd of course prefer to fuck around with someone about as good as me. Having a separate ELL / ranking for each race solves the first issue, but doesn't begin to take care of issue #2. And no, /dnd is not the answer, ok? You want some people to be able to talk to you, you want to meet new people - you just don't want to meet all of bloody battle.net at once. Okay so I did read "25 PAGES ZOMG." And my point still sticks. I bolded your reasoning and really its no different from the one you quoted of me. You don't want to waste your time, but you feel that its okay to waste a noobs time steamrolling them? Unless you're trying to say that your off race is so bad that you lose all RTS knowledge and suddenly become a 30-50apm clueless noob, then you should just go about off racing in a different manner than ladder rated games. I understand that for a specific situation it might be an inconvenience, but I am arguing that its a greater convenience for the majority (casuals and the like). ... I'm saying I think any new account you make should start at a higher ELL rank - perhaps at your highest achieved ELL -_- All I want is to be able to play with my non-main races without dropping 200 ranks on the ladder Even if you can't do what I suggested (let people start new accounts with a higher than zero ELL) then I actually do not think it's a big deal if someone can make, let's say 3 accounts per Real ID. It's not like they can newbbash for very long that way, and you can easily flag any account that auto-leaves any game to drop in rank. + Noobs will have to deal with getting stomped at the start of every season anyway, since everything resets.. I have NO interest in steamrolling noobs lol Nothing more boring in the world.
Well if you could pump out new accounts based on ELL you could very easily win trade. And if they had some sort of regulation on playing against someone for X period a time it would only slow, not stop, win trading.
Once again im not really trying to say your reasons are bad for wanting to create a new account, but I know the majority of people want to noob bash or leave their 50% record and pretend to be good with a clean %.
Honestly your best bet is to just play against people on the forum, in random channels, or friends. And I believe that is worth the benefit to the game overall of having 1 account per cdkey.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 27 2009 09:04 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 08:33 keV. wrote:On August 27 2009 08:25 Skyze wrote:
Jibba do you even read my posts? I say LEAGUES are totally different than ladders.
The SC2 blizzard run ladder will be the backbone of everything, much like the War3 one was before they stopped supporting it. I said there will be outside leagues like WC3L, but in the end, the WC3L teams are made up by the top of the SC2 ladder. Thats the whole point.
The SC2 ladder will be the ONLY ladder, there will be no iccup or CAL/ESL/CEVO. Leagues? as in five 1v1 matchs in a clan-league format, Sure, there will be those, but thats not what we're talking about. We're talking about the SC2 ladder. The SC2 ladder will not be "irrelevant" like you put it, just like ICCup isnt irrelevant to the SC scene right now outside of korea.
Outside of Korea, where else can foreigners meet to play eachother in a semi-controlled (hack-free) envirnment outside of their close practice partners?? Iccup. Now in SC2, since blizzard will have an AMM system that is hack free, the SC2 ladder takes that spot, and not only for foreigners, but for pretty much everyone including koreans until they develope their own SC2 private gaming houses (A-level teams like SKT, CJ, etc) but everyone outside of there, will still play majority of SC2 ladder. No. The ladder will never be "the place to play" competitively. Leagues will take precedence (as they always do) with popular mainstream games that are desirable for sponsors to sponsor. They may be used as a qualifier, but the "GRAND FINALS" are never going to be 2 anonymous players being AMM'd against each other. Edit: Good players are just going to play where the money is. If Blizzard throws enough of it down, then maybe they will stay on the ladder, but historically, that isn't usually the case. Sigh, it's going to be the place to play for competitive practice. I don't understand why anyone feels the need to drag in 1 day/week leagues (or hell, things as big as the OSL) into this. The Bnet ladder is gonna take about the same role as ICCUP. That is, the competitive go to place for more or less everyone outside the Korean pro houses, and hell even a lot of those guys play on ICCUP. IRC? Special scrim channels? It doesn't work on B.net because it uses an archaic 1 channel chat system, but I don't think finding practice will be that hard, especially with an influx of gamers who are used to doing that to find competitive practice. I don't know if Blizzard is planning to add in real chat support, but that'd make it even easier. I'd still rather search an opponent than get auto-matched.
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