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On August 27 2009 00:32 Eatme wrote:
If you want to avoid smurfs you could just 1) play. 2) Go into a popular chat channel and ask for a game. 3) Ask your friends for a game. 4) Host a custom game. 5) Buy a 2nd off-race/fun account.
Ok maybe it didnt work with poing #1. But I dont understand why people want to play ladder but not facing good players. If I want to compete in the elite class in sports I pay the ranking fee and compete in the elite class. People who are just in it for fun and cant compete have other classes to have fun in.
The best solution would be to have the same system as in a game called starcraft. One ladder with seperate stats and then a normal game thingy with just wins-losses-disc. Both having matchmaking but normal games does not have matchmaking according to stats.
Please tell me whats wrong with that idea. Not that people seem to read any other posts anyway.
"But I dont understand why people want to play ladder but not facing good players."
...hypocritical much? If you want to lose so badly why bother smurfing? But seriously...
Part the legit point of smurfing (for offracing) is one or both of two things: not having your hard-earned rank decline, or not having to face players so good that they steamroll you in 3 minutes and you're just wondering WTF can I do better. Both can be solved by separate ranks for each race, and if you're so hardcore that you want to face awesome players the instant you roll zerg, well, eventually you'll get up there, right?
As for your own suggestion to use SC's system, it depends. If people can't create more than one screen name, then it does indeed solve the offracing problem. In that case it would only have two issues left: the anonymity issue, and what do I do if I want to play an unranked match against someone of my skill level.
If you can still create more than one screenname or account, than your solution wouldn't work, since smurfing itself is motivated by newb stomping, which is most effectively accomplished by trolling the ranked ladder.
Getting to the original five points:
1) yeah, doesn't work when you suck
2) If smurfing is a problem in the ladder you will still have people with 0-0 accounts showing up in newb custom games and owning people until they start getting kicked. Either way, ladder or no ladder, smurfs will show up.
3) What happens if none of your friends are your skill level and you want an even game? Also, your friends can't be on call all the time. This argument actually goes both ways... but for newbs who aren't as socially established it's a bit more of a problem.
4) See 2
5) Doesn't work because if you buy another account because you're getting smurfed, all that bloody happens is you get smurfed on your new account! But frankly, I think the whole idea of forcing someone to buy a second copy of the game just to address a hole in battle.net is ridiculous in the first place.
More in general on the topic:
Rather than telling new players to "go play in the chaos of custom games if you don't want to face players much better than you", why don't we just eliminate smurfing from the ranked matches? Isn't ranking people what ranked matches are for, and smurfing a subversion of that ranked system?
Look: if, as a pro player, you want to remain anonymus, offrace, or whatever on battle.net, that's great. But smurfing is not the only answer to those problems. Smurfing is just the answer that people _happened to find_. Since battle.net is getting a revamp they might as well get different answers that don't involve mediocre players roflstomping all the newbies.
It may be that you can create new screennames and their stats go with you, but you can hide your stats to some extent (in case you're server famous). This doesn't change how you get ranked in ranked matches, but could allow good players to meet new people while not getting spammed a ton. For those worried about hidden stats allowing you to smurf custom games, just make sure that everyone who joins isn't hiding their stats and you're good to go, or restrict hidden stats to rating and rank. win/loss is pretty good for singling out newbies if you don't have new accounts with new win/losses popping up all the time.
See, it's not that hard to come up with ideas that don't involve newbies getting owned by smurfers with nothing better to do. The solutions are there, you just have to look for them rather than jumping on the complaining bandwagon because you can't imagine that there could be a better idea that could involve new features in Battle.net 2.0.
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On August 27 2009 00:32 Eatme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 23:08 Medzo wrote:
People are exaggerating the idea of getting spammed by people just from being high ranked. But lets assume it did happen. Then you would have a few options. Option 1) /dnd now no one can message you. Option 2) /ignore now whoever was messaging you cannot message you anymore without buying a new cdkey. Option 3) just get over it and don't respond. These options are all assuming no new hide or ignore features are added.
Also smurfing or 'sandbagging' is a huge issue in wc3 laddering, and somewhat in BW. If you're good it doesn't really effect you, but I know it pisses off a lot of people when they are first starting to verse someone who has been playing for 3 years but isn't quite good enough to actually be satisfied and goes to bash noobs for fun or to clean out his precious record.
If you want to play an off race you could just 1) play. 2) Go into a popular chat channel and ask for a game. 3) Ask your friends for a game. 4) Host a custom game. 5) Buy a 2nd off-race/fun account. If you want to avoid smurfs you could just 1) play. 2) Go into a popular chat channel and ask for a game. 3) Ask your friends for a game. 4) Host a custom game. 5) Buy a 2nd off-race/fun account. Ok maybe it didnt work with poing #1. But I dont understand why people want to play ladder but not facing good players. If I want to compete in the elite class in sports I pay the ranking fee and compete in the elite class. People who are just in it for fun and cant compete have other classes to have fun in. The best solution would be to have the same system as in a game called starcraft. One ladder with seperate stats and then a normal game thingy with just wins-losses-disc. Both having matchmaking but normal games does not have matchmaking according to stats. Please tell me whats wrong with that idea. Not that people seem to read any other posts anyway.
Has it ever occurred to you that noobs would want a competitive ladder where they can compete and improve with people of similar skill and not get stomped by people with egos as small as their dicks.
Anyways I think FA's system would be more reasonable then the current one however the idea of excluding match ups is not a good idea for a truly competitive ladder.
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On August 27 2009 00:32 Eatme wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 23:08 Medzo wrote:
People are exaggerating the idea of getting spammed by people just from being high ranked. But lets assume it did happen. Then you would have a few options. Option 1) /dnd now no one can message you. Option 2) /ignore now whoever was messaging you cannot message you anymore without buying a new cdkey. Option 3) just get over it and don't respond. These options are all assuming no new hide or ignore features are added.
Also smurfing or 'sandbagging' is a huge issue in wc3 laddering, and somewhat in BW. If you're good it doesn't really effect you, but I know it pisses off a lot of people when they are first starting to verse someone who has been playing for 3 years but isn't quite good enough to actually be satisfied and goes to bash noobs for fun or to clean out his precious record.
If you want to play an off race you could just 1) play. 2) Go into a popular chat channel and ask for a game. 3) Ask your friends for a game. 4) Host a custom game. 5) Buy a 2nd off-race/fun account. If you want to avoid smurfs you could just 1) play. 2) Go into a popular chat channel and ask for a game. 3) Ask your friends for a game. 4) Host a custom game. 5) Buy a 2nd off-race/fun account. Ok maybe it didnt work with poing #1. But I dont understand why people want to play ladder but not facing good players. If I want to compete in the elite class in sports I pay the ranking fee and compete in the elite class. People who are just in it for fun and cant compete have other classes to have fun in. The best solution would be to have the same system as in a game called starcraft. One ladder with seperate stats and then a normal game thingy with just wins-losses-disc. Both having matchmaking but normal games does not have matchmaking according to stats. Please tell me whats wrong with that idea. Not that people seem to read any other posts anyway.
Well if you want to be competitive I agree with your point. But if you want to play casually yet somewhat competitive still or are new and don't enjoy getting face stomped in half your games because the matching system sucks then this is a good thing. Noobs want to have reliable stats too, not just stats that show that they are getting creamed by people who are in actuality in other tiers.
Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net
I might add that this is a great thing for custom games and custom maps. If you don't like playing with someone then you can blacklist them. The same can be said if you're one of the many players that likes to do arrange team games with a wide variety of people that you sometimes meet in random channels.
EDIT:
Thought I would add that I am concerned about how long it might take to find games when you're in the top rankings. I remember the times I would create new accounts in wc3 was when it took over an hour to find a single game.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Anyways I think FA's system would be more reasonable then the current one however the idea of excluding match ups is not a good idea for a truly competitive ladder.
Why? You still play vs every race in my system, you just don't have to play PvP if you'd rather play TvP.
PvZ
PvT
TvP
PvR
I play vs all races. If any matchup is so boring that nobody ends up playing it, isn't it a good thing that you don't have to ;p?
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How do you handle ladder matches if you end up with an identical race picker? Or do you mean picking which race you want to play against before the match search starts?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 27 2009 05:26 Tsagacity wrote:
How do you handle ladder matches if you end up with an identical race picker? Or do you mean picking which race you want to play against before the match search starts?
You default to your vR race.
You pick your race or matchups before you start doing AMM search anyway... And I don't mean picking your opponents race, I mean you pick what race YOU want to play AS.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Arguers just don't want to ruin their records. The only thing 1 acct per person keeps you from doing is bashing noobs in rated games, even with your off race. How about you just take some losses on your record to try an offrace? Is it because you dont want to ruin your record playing people better than you are with that race? That is the same reason why they are trying to eliminate smurfing and 'sandbagging'. So the new players don't play people way better than them 75% of the time. I am 99.9% positive you can find someone who is willing to 1on1 from a chat channel or even a great website like TL.net
....
25 pages.
TWENTY FIVE GOD DAMNED PAGES.
I am so fucking sick of restating my position because people have selective god damned reading. No, I'm not afraid of losing.
PGTour season 6 and 7, I played a combined 800 games, finishing the seasons at A- and A+ respectively. I dodged nobody, I rematched anyone who asked, and asked anyone who beat me for a rematch.
But when I wanted to play some off-races, I created a new account.
Why? Because my protoss is fucking A rank and my Zerg is like D+ -_- Do I care one shit about losing to the other A ranks? NO. But losing with my main account means it goes down in rank, meaning I can't play as good players (as protoss) without going back up in rank, which I don't want to do because it's a waste of my time.
So I make a new ID.
What if I'm Slayers'Boxer and I'm a little bit tired of everyone messaging me or friend requesting me as soon as I log onto battle.net? Maybe I just want to play some damned 2v2s with a friend, and not have to deal with being *THE* slayers'boxer?
Make a new ID. Make a new ID, but keep the ELL of your master account, I don't care if that means getting raped a few times with your new race.
What if I just want to make a new ID because I don't like the way my old one goes with the new clan I joined?
For instance, FrozenArbiter does not fit very well with the tag iD. does it? iD.FA does.
number9dream doesn't go well with Dream.t, right? Dream.t)PltO does.
Furthermore, why should I have to play custom games when I could play AMM? You have NO WAY of knowing you are matched with a player of equal skill in customgames, and even if I'm just gonna fuck around I'd of course prefer to fuck around with someone about as good as me.
Having a separate ELL / ranking for each race solves the first issue, but doesn't begin to take care of issue #2. And no, /dnd is not the answer, ok? You want some people to be able to talk to you, you want to meet new people - you just don't want to meet all of bloody battle.net at once.
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United States22883 Posts
FA, what if ladders become irrelevant? Ladders are a viable way of competition when you've only got disorganized leagues, but on the release of SC2 CEVO, ESL and all the other major leagues are going to set up divisions for real competitive play, similar to the Korean scene with bigger numbers. I honestly think your first argument is moot because of this. No one's going to care about Blizzard's ladder system.
If we have to rely on Blizzard to organize competitive play, then that's a much bigger problem.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I'm 100% sure that you are wrong.
If for nothing else, then because they will invite the top finishers to blizzcon, like they've done for WC3 for years, in addition to the ladder finals.
In addition to that, with no LAN and presumably better support than in the past, I think the ladder will be where you play for at least the first few years.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 27 2009 06:08 FrozenArbiter wrote:
I'm 100% sure that you are wrong.
If for nothing else, then because they will invite the top finishers to blizzcon, like they've done for WC3 for years, in addition to the ladder finals.
In addition to that, with no LAN and presumably better support than in the past, I think the ladder will be where you play for at least the first few years.
Blizzard could as easily invite from private leagues, just like they did with GOM finalists, and it surely won't be the only major tournament (Blizzcon is just exhibition matches anyways.) Why don't you think there will be real leagues? Competitive play needs to differentiate between practice and matches and ladders don't do that. They're all about grading practice. That's the real problem if you don't want to be graded for trying new things. Smurfing is just an inefficient workaround.
If you're going to use ladders, they should just be a preliminary cut-off point because of size limitations with running lower level leagues. At the top 20%, or whatever cut-off chosen, the numbers will be perfectly suited for league play.
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On August 27 2009 05:21 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +
Anyways I think FA's system would be more reasonable then the current one however the idea of excluding match ups is not a good idea for a truly competitive ladder.
Why? You still play vs every race in my system, you just don't have to play PvP if you'd rather play TvP. PvZ PvT TvP PvR I play vs all races. If any matchup is so boring that nobody ends up playing it, isn't it a good thing that you don't have to ;p?
For starters I don't think with all of the things added to each race will allow the game to have boring/bland match ups nor do I think blizzard would allow it this time around. Second tournaments are gonna be playing a much larger part of the game and you're gonna eventually run into issues and have to play match ups that you don't want which will obviously be a weaker match up for you as you haven't been playing it often or at all. So even if you're the better player you could end up losing which is not what it should be especially since we have no idea how serious some of these tournaments could be.
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FA, while I respect your position as an admin here, I will have to point out afew things I find totally wrong in your thread.
First off, in regards to changing name on clan/tag purposes, if you played War3, You would see they had your clan tag on the side of the chat room/screen. I imagine the idea that one ID would have would mean it will show your clan tag when you enter games and such (I believe it already did that on the load screen for war3 but I could be mistaken, its been awhile).. So while I would choose the name Skyze, while my team on bnet would be rS, so I dont have to make rS.Skyze, because if I did that, in the game/channels, my name would be rS.Skyze [rS] , where if it was just Skyze, it would just be Skyze [rS].. If I happen to leave them, and that day join ESC, my name would be Skyze [ESC] . If you used your name, under my team itd show up as FrozenArbiter [rS] in games/chat.. That is what I am understanding and makes the most sense for blizzard to do (basically how War3 had it)
Also if I am mistaken, I thought the whole purpose of this new friends list/ IM system was to block out non-friends from constantly whispering you. So if THE Slayers_Boxer didnt want random msgs, he would do like a /dnd that would block out anyone NOT on his Friends list. How do people deal with it now on iccup (other than smurfing?) like, We know the times that Mondragon is playing his clanleague matchs, why doesnt 100 people just blast msgs his way during the game to get their name on the stream?? DND solves. And with the seperation of friends lists, it should be fine.
Im on the fence about this whole subject, in one regard it is good but I do understand the offracing argument, although I must say thats the only one that I see as a legitament concern at the moment. I do like the idea of being able to 2-3 IDs, but whatever your ELL accumulates to on one account, will tie to the other account, that way if you are indeed A+ protoss, and you start your 2nd account with zerg, even though you will start at D, you will be matched up against D players who are like 7-0 and high ELL also, rather than the 2-40 D players. That way, you still have to climb but you aren't trampling total newbs in the process, and you can make 3-4 accounts per CDkey, one for each race, but no more (unless you delete all stats and change name from one of those 4)
The main issue with War3 ELL system lately has been actually FINDING games with the high ELL's, so that is the main concern I have for SC2's AMM, If someone really good goes 100-0 and the #2 ranked player is 70-30, it should try to find 90%+ people within their rank for the first 10 minutes but after that, start opening it up to potentially anyone also searching for a game, after a set number of minutes (like 10).. because waiting over 15 minutes to find a game at the top of the ladder is bullshit.
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i hope there will be more obs features so we can watch top players duke it out
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On August 27 2009 06:02 Jibba wrote:
FA, what if ladders become irrelevant? Ladders are a viable way of competition when you've only got disorganized leagues, but on the release of SC2 CEVO, ESL and all the other major leagues are going to set up divisions for real competitive play, similar to the Korean scene with bigger numbers. I honestly think your first argument is moot because of this. No one's going to care about Blizzard's ladder system.
If we have to rely on Blizzard to organize competitive play, then that's a much bigger problem.
And this is 100% wrong too.
The SC2 Ladder will be THE ladder for the next 5+ years after release. There will be no WGT, PGT, Iccup, CL or anything until probably 10 years after release, when blizzard stops monitoring it, but I can PROMISE there will be nothing other than the SC2 ladder for at least the first 5 years.
In terms of Team leagues, such as Iccup Clan league and etc, Sure, there will be afew of those, but it wont stop people from playing the SC2 ladder. Actually, To get noticed enough to be picked up by a high-profile team, you will most likely NEED to be in the top ranks of the SC2 ladder.
Regardless if CEVO or ESL or anyone sets up a different LADDER, it will NOT beat blizzards. The only thing outside organizations will run is Clan leagues, No ladders at all.
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I m confused??
If u r put in a division..... and u always play ranked agaist then. How u r gonna smurf??
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United States22883 Posts
On August 27 2009 06:36 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 06:02 Jibba wrote:
FA, what if ladders become irrelevant? Ladders are a viable way of competition when you've only got disorganized leagues, but on the release of SC2 CEVO, ESL and all the other major leagues are going to set up divisions for real competitive play, similar to the Korean scene with bigger numbers. I honestly think your first argument is moot because of this. No one's going to care about Blizzard's ladder system.
If we have to rely on Blizzard to organize competitive play, then that's a much bigger problem. And this is 100% wrong too. The SC2 Ladder will be THE ladder for the next 5+ years after release. There will be no WGT, PGT, Iccup, CL or anything until probably 10 years after release, when blizzard stops monitoring it, but I can PROMISE there will be nothing other than the SC2 ladder for at least the first 5 years. In terms of Team leagues, such as Iccup Clan league and etc, Sure, there will be afew of those, but it wont stop people from playing the SC2 ladder. Actually, To get noticed enough to be picked up by a high-profile team, you will most likely NEED to be in the top ranks of the SC2 ladder. Regardless if CEVO or ESL or anyone sets up a different LADDER, it will NOT beat blizzards. The only thing outside organizations will run is Clan leagues, No ladders at all.
They will run LEAGUES and offer PRIZES and entry to TOURNAMENTS. LEAGUE > LADDER. How many times does this need to be COVERED?
HOW can you possibly THINK leagues won't be established? There's already INFRASTRUCTURE and sponsors who are WILLING to support any popular COMPETITIVE game for the sake of E-SPORTS, for the same reason they've supported CS leagues. PLUS SC2 actually needs new Nvidia/Intel hardware, which makes it EASY to sponsor, 1.6 DOES not.
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Based on their discussion regarding the "Real ID," I see the account stuff working very similar to steam. I have one login to Steam that I use for every game, but within that game I can modify my alias.
When you buy SC2, you will get one account and create one login ID. This ID won't change (at least not easily), but you will still have lots of options for in-game screennames. Players should be able to contact you regularly using your current screen-name, but only the mutuals on your friends list will be able to see where you are regardless of game/account.
Obviously your ELL would be tied to the main ID. Smurfing would be very easy, but it won't allow you to magically start bashing the D- players.
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umm nice try jibba. Like caps? Here you go.
The BNet Leagues will be a facet, and sure, they will have prizes, but the LADDER is still the #1 FOCAL POINT OF ALL OF BNET 2.0.
ANYONE can play the BNet Ladder, where not everyone can play leagues. And guess what? TO GET INTO LEAGUES, You need to BE AT THE TOP OF THE LADDER! Make sense??
There will be outside leagues, sure, providing more prizes to teams/already good players.. but the BASIS OF EVERYTHING IN STARCRAFT TWO WILL BE ITS LADDER, as that is where you find your top players, able to play in leagues.
Leagues dont just start out of no where, If there wasnt an Iccup ladder on BW, you wouldnt find good players to recruite to all the teams like ToT), ESC, eX, Fosc, etc.. the SC2 LADDER will be a hack-free place to play that is SUPPORTED and MONITORED by BLIZZARD.
Case and point.. the LADDER is the backbone of SC2. End of discussion. Without that, Theres no place to get players for leagues, hence leagues wont exist. Its not that hard to understand.
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On August 27 2009 07:05 Skyze wrote:
umm nice try jibba. Like caps? Here you go.
The BNet Leagues will be a facet, and sure, they will have prizes, but the LADDER is still the #1 FOCAL POINT OF ALL OF BNET 2.0.
ANYONE can play the BNet Ladder, where not everyone can play leagues. And guess what? TO GET INTO LEAGUES, You need to BE AT THE TOP OF THE LADDER! Make sense??
There will be outside leagues, sure, providing more prizes to teams/already good players.. but the BASIS OF EVERYTHING IN STARCRAFT TWO WILL BE ITS LADDER, as that is where you find your top players, able to play in leagues.
Leagues dont just start out of no where, If there wasnt an Iccup ladder on BW, you wouldnt find good players to recruite to all the teams like ToT), ESC, eX, Fosc, etc.. the SC2 LADDER will be a hack-free place to play that is SUPPORTED and MONITORED by BLIZZARD.
Case and point.. the LADDER is the backbone of SC2. End of discussion. Without that, Theres no place to get players for leagues, hence leagues wont exist. Its not that hard to understand. Did you watch the Bnet 2.0 panel at Blizzcon? Honestly it looked like the leagues WERE the ladder.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 27 2009 07:05 Skyze wrote:
umm nice try jibba. Like caps? Here you go.
The BNet Leagues will be a facet, and sure, they will have prizes, but the LADDER is still the #1 FOCAL POINT OF ALL OF BNET 2.0.
ANYONE can play the BNet Ladder, where not everyone can play leagues. And guess what? TO GET INTO LEAGUES, You need to BE AT THE TOP OF THE LADDER! Make sense??
There will be outside leagues, sure, providing more prizes to teams/already good players.. but the BASIS OF EVERYTHING IN STARCRAFT TWO WILL BE ITS LADDER, as that is where you find your top players, able to play in leagues.
Leagues dont just start out of no where, If there wasnt an Iccup ladder on BW, you wouldnt find good players to recruite to all the teams like ToT), ESC, eX, Fosc, etc.. the SC2 LADDER will be a hack-free place to play that is SUPPORTED and MONITORED by BLIZZARD.
Case and point.. the LADDER is the backbone of SC2. End of discussion. Without that, Theres no place to get players for leagues, hence leagues wont exist. Its not that hard to understand.
Have you ever played a competitive game that wasn't released in 1997? I don't think you understand how CEVO/CAL/UGS/ESL/etc. have worked in the past. Ladders are easy to manipulate and discourage creativity. Leagues give you real benchmarked results, where you aren't punished for practicing new things because only matches count.
And if you don't think the infrastructure is in place, look how long it took TF2 and Halo 3 leagues to get started. SC2 is big enough that it'll be featured at launch.
Also, good job editing in my name instead of calling me "kid." Classy!
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EPT
