Inelegant balance vs elegant design - Page 3

First I would like to note that it's really messed up that multiple of the people having complaints about this don't even play the beta. It's been really frustrating lately that you can't even have a logical debate/conversation with people here because they like to comment on balance of a game that they haven't even played and act like they know better than the people who do.

While I can understand some debate on Patch 13 (even though after fitting OL Speed in to my build order it's making a much bigger difference than I thought it would, and so far I've countered Mutas pretty well with Spore/Hydra - seems these changes have better results during testing than in theory) I disagree with the complaints about patch 14 completely.

Contrary to the complaints, Hellbats alone aren't the problem. How many times have you felt it was impossible to deal with Hellbats that marched across the map? That's not asking if you have ever lost to a push that involved Hellbats, that's asking if it seems impossible to deal with. They are easily counterable if used in that fashion. This indicates that Hellbats alone are not the problem.

The complaints about their cost of only minerals is pretty silly too. And this is coming from a Zerg player (when all Zergs units who counter Hellbats cost gas). You can't expect each race not to have their own advantages and disadvantages, and I wouldn't want to take this advantage away. This is more similar to BW balance where Vultures didn't cost gas either, while having different strengtths they were used for harass in every matchup and were completely game changing in some.

A lot of people have claimed the Medivac Thrusters are the problem, if that's the case then how come every other unit in the game isn't problematic when you patch them in to Medivacs? This makes it obvious that the problem isn't Medivacs, and Hellbats alone aren't a problem without Medivacs.

So whats the problem? It's their synergy. But the synergy between them DOES require a bit of micro, so it can be a good thing. That's why the change they did actually WAS an elegant change. It kept the synergy between the 2 units in the game, made it require EVEN MORE micro, it delayed the tech for the same early aggression enough for it to be defendable but still viable with good micro, and it didn't nerf the base units at all (which aren't havent issues in other circumstances).

I also find complaints about Hellbat supply silly. A lot of people try to attack this change for its "logic" and act like that has any basis on game balance or game design decisions, when it's neither. Considering it's relativity to everything else in the game, this is nothing but a nitpick. Where is the logic in fitting Thors in to a medivac, for fitting only 8 marines when you would be able to fit far more of them in a single vehicle? Where is the logic in Zerg cargo?

Let's not get it twisted, cargo size is NOT for the "logic", it's for the balance of the game, plain and simple. This is exactly why the change makes sense - because it's the best thing for balance. Anyone claiming this change is bad balance or bad game design should be ashamed of themselves because they aren't valuing either of those 2 ideals. Your suspension of disbelief is for some reason not applying to the cargo changes, but your still suspending your disbelief of dozens of other illogical things that happen in the game, because it's a game and not a simulation, and you have to suspend your disbelief in every game to sacrifice for game design and balance. Otherwise Battlecruisers would block the entire field and destroy as many units as 4 nukes can every time they came crashing to the ground.

I also find the arguments of the OP poorly thought out. He says "but now only 2 Hellbats can fit in a Medivac in arguably one of the most illogical, and inefectual, ways to nerf Hellbat drops". How could you say it's ineffectual? Have you actually played against it since patch? It's much easier to hold off. And I already explained the problem was with the synergy between the two units. This means it IS a logical change. It nerfs the synergy between the units, makes it come out at a later timing for the same amount of aggression, while still keeping it as a viable strat, just later in the game and requiring more micro. All the other people here who have proposed fixes would not accomplish all that this change did, and would cause other balance issues in the game. It's the most logical idea that anyone has discussed here... I don't understand how people could be so ignorant that they complain about things without actually testing them, or without actually analyzing what the actual problem is with the strategy...

Also the argument in the OP about "If Blizzard wants to retain the current power level of the Hellbats, then the problem Blizzard has to address is the timing of the Hellbat drops and the tech advancement of the Terran race."... That's exactly what this nerf did!!! How can you not see that? For a 4 hellbat drop it used to get in to the enemy base at 6:30, now you can get a 4 hellbat 2 medivac drop in the base at 7:12. This is directly addressing the timing of the drops. This is also in line with the early aggression for the other races as well. This shows how illogical this entire topic is, when it's masking itself as if it's discussing logic and good game design. Even the changes that were healthy for the game design and logical get complained about, and the arguments against them are completely illogical.

Then look at how the OP claims the problem is one thing, and then other posters claim it's other things. From Hellbats themselves, to Medivacs, to Terrans tech advancement. So apparently every aspect of the race is a problem. And people have problems with every other race too. People just complain about everything and it's in no way healthy at all. Thank god the game is not balanced or designed around this kind of mindset.

Then on to the issue of Reapers, which brings up another great example. When they first did the Reaper changes people were making just as big of a shit storm as they are making for the current changes. But now people are actually complaining about Reaper harass? This speaks volumes for how fickle the community is and how silly it is that they complain about every damn thing without trying the changes themselves. This is the exact thing that frustrates me and the reason I'm responding to this post. Even though people should have learned from the past, they still make the same mistakes, and go on complaining about everything when things didn't turn out how they expected last time either.

Also, the OP's Reaper complaints show a bit of ignorance about the balance of the game as well. Because if they go with a heavy harass based strat such as reapers in to hellbats they are sacrificing the strength of a mid game push significantly, leaving them vulnerable to aggression. Something that the OP goes on to say is a good thing in the next paragraphs. The strat being discussed has very big weaknesses that could be exploited, and isn't a problem in balance atm.

Widow mines in TvZ aren't a problem either. The harass can be deadly if you aren't ready for it, but can easily be countered if you scout and prepare for it, as it should be. Contrary to your claims you CAN be aggressive on a player that uses them for defense, it just requires micro. Likewise if the mines are microed well and have good placement they can be useful against Zerg. In both cases they require micro for both players (and not just drop one and forget) so what's the problem?

Let's not even get in to all the multitudes of ways that your proposed change of Overseer tech would be unhealthy for the game and unbalanced in every matchup, giving easy denial of tech strats for the early game that have the potential to ravage enemies early game, and far more powerful scouting with changelings, and by far the earliest mobile detection in game. Every matchup would be ravaged.

Also the claims that Zerg lost early game aggression... I'm a Zerg player who has off raced Terran a bit since HotS. Zerg did not lose early game aggression in any way, our early game aggression is even stronger than it was in WoL and we have more options than we did before. The ZvT matchup is an amazing matchup atm, probably the best in the game, and definitely way more exciting than it was in WoL. It honestly sounds like you aren't a Zerg player because if you were I doubt you would be claiming those things, which brings up the subject as to why you are complaining about balance of a race you dont play?

The fact that you need someone else to post it on the Blizzard forums basically proves what I was saying earlier... that you don't even play the beta yet are complaining about balance. Why is that even allowed on these forums?

compared to "saving them for later" while not using them