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On February 15 2013 00:27 FeyFey wrote:
Oh did they remove the mechanical unit flag from the Hellbat? Didn't noticed. Or the OP isn't really informed as it was one of the main topics everywhere that you can heal and repair them at once.
But the OP, besides just ranting about Hellbats. Hits a few nice points. The last changes from Blizzard were not elegant and just felt like: "well we don't know how to fix the ideas we brought in in any other way".
I may dislike the Spore crawler change though, because it is exactly what I was worried about with them introducing Muta regen. The need for something that kills Mutas not only weakening them.
You're right, it's not a major part of my argument but it's clearly an oversight. My point was a lot of seemingly non-sensical changes have been made to the Hellbat in order to try and balance the unit - gaining the Bio tag in order to be healed by Medivacs, losing Infernal Pre-Igniters in battle armor mode, increasing in mass and size in order to reduce Medivac carrying capacity etc. all seem a bit odd design wise.
I'm ok with the damage modifiers to Spore Crawlers and Widow Mines, those are sort of the invisible dials of the game that achieve game balance without being noticed, or anywhere near as ridiculous as the Hellbat cargo size nerf.
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I can't wait till people get used to the hellbat mechanics and stop whining about things that are essentially irrelevant. As long as the unit has its place in a metagame but isn't too strong, it's fine.
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On February 15 2013 00:27 FeyFey wrote:
But the OP, besides just ranting about Hellbats. Hits a few nice points. The last changes from Blizzard were not elegant and just felt like: "well we don't know how to fix the ideas we brought in in any other way".
I may dislike the Spore crawler change though, because it is exactly what I was worried about with them introducing Muta regen. The need for something that kills Mutas not only weakening them.
As someone who has criticized the Blizzard dev team for their "stupid design decisions" for some time now I can only hope that they will continue this kind of nonsense in the future because it seems unlikely that they will make the necessary changes to make SC2 easy to balance. The only hope I have left is that they make it really ridiculously complicated and "run it into the ground" and then HAVE TO start balancing from scratch. The whole game as it is is just too focused on high economy and big productions to be easily balanced and those things need to go to make it easier.
As for Mutalisks and Spore Crawlers ... how about a "net"-clicky which captures one of them and drags it to the ground like the Warcraft 3 spell from the wolf riders? As I pointed out above somewhere the problem with the Battle Hellions didnt start with them being droppable from Medivacs but rather with the turbo boost and the ability to be healed by Medivacs. The problem with Mutalisks probably comes from their boosted health regen and that is where they should have started instead of making the game more complicated.
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On February 15 2013 00:44 Bagi wrote:
I can't wait till people get used to the hellbat mechanics and stop whining about things that are essentially irrelevant. As long as the unit has its place in a metagame but isn't too strong, it's fine.
It is so true. The warhound fills a roll that terran needed, which is a tank and unit that can deal with protoss/zerg mineral dump harassment end game(zealots and lings). We have bigger fish to fry, like the Medivac speed boost needing a longer cool down or an energy cost(the second might be a problem and really limit the ability), the Sky-protoss end game army vs zerg, weird endgame widow mine issue due to their low attack priority and so much more.
Also, HotS did one thing right, if you listen to SotG. Fewer colossi all around. Now we will only have 1 or 2 per game, rather than a wall of them.
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I agree with the terran ideas, the zerg overseer at hatch tech is a no, that's like overlords in BW and they are trying to avoid Zerg being "detectorific"
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When the hellion transforms into a Hellbat, the operator becomes more exposed, which is why it gains the biological tag (which has advantages and disadvantages).
The rearrangement of parts also leads to an increase in the amount of space occupied (a common geometry occurrence), leading to Hellbats taking up more space in the Medivac than Hellions, and their inability to fit into a bunker.
Neither of these is un-intuitive unless you have the capacity for conceptual thought of a 10-year-old.
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First I would like to note that it's really messed up that multiple of the people having complaints about this don't even play the beta. It's been really frustrating lately that you can't even have a logical debate/conversation with people here because they like to comment on balance of a game that they haven't even played and act like they know better than the people who do.
While I can understand some debate on Patch 13 (even though after fitting OL Speed in to my build order it's making a much bigger difference than I thought it would, and so far I've countered Mutas pretty well with Spore/Hydra - seems these changes have better results during testing than in theory) I disagree with the complaints about patch 14 completely.
Contrary to the complaints, Hellbats alone aren't the problem. How many times have you felt it was impossible to deal with Hellbats that marched across the map? That's not asking if you have ever lost to a push that involved Hellbats, that's asking if it seems impossible to deal with. They are easily counterable if used in that fashion. This indicates that Hellbats alone are not the problem.
The complaints about their cost of only minerals is pretty silly too. And this is coming from a Zerg player (when all Zergs units who counter Hellbats cost gas). You can't expect each race not to have their own advantages and disadvantages, and I wouldn't want to take this advantage away. This is more similar to BW balance where Vultures didn't cost gas either, while having different strengtths they were used for harass in every matchup and were completely game changing in some.
A lot of people have claimed the Medivac Thrusters are the problem, if that's the case then how come every other unit in the game isn't problematic when you patch them in to Medivacs? This makes it obvious that the problem isn't Medivacs, and Hellbats alone aren't a problem without Medivacs.
So whats the problem? It's their synergy. But the synergy between them DOES require a bit of micro, so it can be a good thing. That's why the change they did actually WAS an elegant change. It kept the synergy between the 2 units in the game, made it require EVEN MORE micro, it delayed the tech for the same early aggression enough for it to be defendable but still viable with good micro, and it didn't nerf the base units at all (which aren't havent issues in other circumstances).
I also find complaints about Hellbat supply silly. A lot of people try to attack this change for its "logic" and act like that has any basis on game balance or game design decisions, when it's neither. Considering it's relativity to everything else in the game, this is nothing but a nitpick. Where is the logic in fitting Thors in to a medivac, for fitting only 8 marines when you would be able to fit far more of them in a single vehicle? Where is the logic in Zerg cargo?
Let's not get it twisted, cargo size is NOT for the "logic", it's for the balance of the game, plain and simple. This is exactly why the change makes sense - because it's the best thing for balance. Anyone claiming this change is bad balance or bad game design should be ashamed of themselves because they aren't valuing either of those 2 ideals. Your suspension of disbelief is for some reason not applying to the cargo changes, but your still suspending your disbelief of dozens of other illogical things that happen in the game, because it's a game and not a simulation, and you have to suspend your disbelief in every game to sacrifice for game design and balance. Otherwise Battlecruisers would block the entire field and destroy as many units as 4 nukes can every time they came crashing to the ground.
I also find the arguments of the OP poorly thought out. He says "but now only 2 Hellbats can fit in a Medivac in arguably one of the most illogical, and inefectual, ways to nerf Hellbat drops". How could you say it's ineffectual? Have you actually played against it since patch? It's much easier to hold off. And I already explained the problem was with the synergy between the two units. This means it IS a logical change. It nerfs the synergy between the units, makes it come out at a later timing for the same amount of aggression, while still keeping it as a viable strat, just later in the game and requiring more micro. All the other people here who have proposed fixes would not accomplish all that this change did, and would cause other balance issues in the game. It's the most logical idea that anyone has discussed here... I don't understand how people could be so ignorant that they complain about things without actually testing them, or without actually analyzing what the actual problem is with the strategy...
Also the argument in the OP about "If Blizzard wants to retain the current power level of the Hellbats, then the problem Blizzard has to address is the timing of the Hellbat drops and the tech advancement of the Terran race."... That's exactly what this nerf did!!! How can you not see that? For a 4 hellbat drop it used to get in to the enemy base at 6:30, now you can get a 4 hellbat 2 medivac drop in the base at 7:12. This is directly addressing the timing of the drops. This is also in line with the early aggression for the other races as well. This shows how illogical this entire topic is, when it's masking itself as if it's discussing logic and good game design. Even the changes that were healthy for the game design and logical get complained about, and the arguments against them are completely illogical.
Then look at how the OP claims the problem is one thing, and then other posters claim it's other things. From Hellbats themselves, to Medivacs, to Terrans tech advancement. So apparently every aspect of the race is a problem. And people have problems with every other race too. People just complain about everything and it's in no way healthy at all. Thank god the game is not balanced or designed around this kind of mindset.
Then on to the issue of Reapers, which brings up another great example. When they first did the Reaper changes people were making just as big of a shit storm as they are making for the current changes. But now people are actually complaining about Reaper harass? This speaks volumes for how fickle the community is and how silly it is that they complain about every damn thing without trying the changes themselves. This is the exact thing that frustrates me and the reason I'm responding to this post. Even though people should have learned from the past, they still make the same mistakes, and go on complaining about everything when things didn't turn out how they expected last time either.
Also, the OP's Reaper complaints show a bit of ignorance about the balance of the game as well. Because if they go with a heavy harass based strat such as reapers in to hellbats they are sacrificing the strength of a mid game push significantly, leaving them vulnerable to aggression. Something that the OP goes on to say is a good thing in the next paragraphs. The strat being discussed has very big weaknesses that could be exploited, and isn't a problem in balance atm.
Widow mines in TvZ aren't a problem either. The harass can be deadly if you aren't ready for it, but can easily be countered if you scout and prepare for it, as it should be. Contrary to your claims you CAN be aggressive on a player that uses them for defense, it just requires micro. Likewise if the mines are microed well and have good placement they can be useful against Zerg. In both cases they require micro for both players (and not just drop one and forget) so what's the problem?
Let's not even get in to all the multitudes of ways that your proposed change of Overseer tech would be unhealthy for the game and unbalanced in every matchup, giving easy denial of tech strats for the early game that have the potential to ravage enemies early game, and far more powerful scouting with changelings, and by far the earliest mobile detection in game. Every matchup would be ravaged.
Also the claims that Zerg lost early game aggression... I'm a Zerg player who has off raced Terran a bit since HotS. Zerg did not lose early game aggression in any way, our early game aggression is even stronger than it was in WoL and we have more options than we did before. The ZvT matchup is an amazing matchup atm, probably the best in the game, and definitely way more exciting than it was in WoL. It honestly sounds like you aren't a Zerg player because if you were I doubt you would be claiming those things, which brings up the subject as to why you are complaining about balance of a race you dont play?
The fact that you need someone else to post it on the Blizzard forums basically proves what I was saying earlier... that you don't even play the beta yet are complaining about balance. Why is that even allowed on these forums?
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Why does everyone feel the need to invent terminology to suggest stuff? Can't we just suggest stuff?
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It feels like both with the muta patch and the hellbat patch, Blizzard has got into a cycle of breaking things then breaking other things or doing oddball patches in an attempt to unbreak them rather than simply revoking the bad patch and trying something else.They completely wrecked ZvZ and turned it into a muta war with the muta patch so instead of putting mutas back to how they were or buffing them in a different way that would maybe prevent muta wars they did that awkward patch to spores for ZvZ, then they also had to buff phoenixes to make it so Protoss didn't die to mass muta every game, but because of the buff is still forces muta vs. Protoss into being a really weird matchup where Protoss has to get mass phoenixes or starve and die because they can't expand or move out
Same with hellbats. At first they weren't an issue but then Blizzard did those dumb patches that massively boosted their damage and made them healable. Then instead of revoking those patches or trying something else after it was shown to be bad they do weird stuff like make it so there can only be 2 in a medivac instead of trying actual useful stuff like removing that dumb bio tag or modifying their damage so they don't trade almost equally with units that are supposed to hard counter them.
I used to always think Blizzard was on the right track and the community was crazy and that we needed to wait but now I am kinda thinking the community has a point. None of these patches make sense anymore. The latest patch is just a bandaid fix for two rather large issues, medivacs speed and the extreme utility of hellbats for cost. If they keep doing weird stuff like this I can't even imagine what they will try to do with Protoss air when they try and bandaid fix that. Seeing every race having to blindly prepare for hellbat drops or die kinda indicated to me that there was a problem.
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How is it unfair that terran can defend early zerg aggression with tanks, when zerg only need queens, lingspeed and time to react and make lings/roaches... Nearly every good terran player goes 3-cc, simply because zerg can super easily fend off early attacks.
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Sometimes an inelegant solution is the only one precise enough to do the job.
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On February 15 2013 03:42 BoggieMan wrote:
How is it unfair that terran can defend early zerg aggression with tanks, when zerg only need queens, lingspeed and time to react and make lings/roaches... Nearly every good terran player goes 3-cc, simply because zerg can super easily fend off early attacks.
If they are defending with tanks they aren't dropping hellbats in the Zerg mineral lines at 7 min. It's a trade off.
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Don't know about some of the details in OP, but I totally agree about the patches becoming a little "unnatural" lately. The increase in cargo space for hellbats in particular just felt like such an artificial change. I don't really like the unit morphing into biological and then losing it between transformations either.
I guess it's fine for the people who give no shits about anything but a balanced multiplayer, but I don't really like how they're just randomly giving up on having stuff actually make sense within the game's universe. I'm sure you could come up with some weird explanations for all this stuff, but it'd have to be pretty obviously contrived.
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On February 15 2013 03:20 Spyridon wrote:
The fact that you need someone else to post it on the Blizzard forums basically proves what I was saying earlier... that you don't even play the beta yet are complaining about balance. Why is that even allowed on these forums?
Because you only need functioning brains combined with the willpower to use them + Show Spoiler +compared to "saving them for later" while not using them
Quite obviously you are right in that the Battle Hellions arent the real problem, but that doesnt change the fact that the last two patches have been rather dubious and highly specific changes which add more rules to the game and make it more complicated ... rather than the reverse. KISS ... its as easy as that. Blizzard is simply putting in too many special conditions and the game would be much better if it had fewer of those ... even if that means not putting in fancy new units.
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On February 15 2013 03:08 RampancyTW wrote:
When the hellion transforms into a Hellbat, the operator becomes more exposed, which is why it gains the biological tag (which has advantages and disadvantages).
The rearrangement of parts also leads to an increase in the amount of space occupied (a common geometry occurrence), leading to Hellbats taking up more space in the Medivac than Hellions, and their inability to fit into a bunker.
Neither of these is un-intuitive unless you have the capacity for conceptual thought of a 10-year-old.
Nice try Dustin Browder.
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I do agree with the op but you seem hostile too Terran players....I get get that vibe lol.
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Some really good points esp about the Terran tech tree. To be honest I think it's mostly unfinished work and Blizzard knows that. The spore +damage to bio and the mine +damage to shields aren't elegant at all. There is a lot to fix and polish.
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On February 15 2013 04:24 i)awn wrote:
Some really good points esp about the Terran tech tree. To be honest I think it's mostly unfinished work and Blizzard knows that. The spore +damage to bio and the mine +damage to shields aren't elegant at all. There is a lot to fix and polish.
This sort of comment is really irritating. Elegant and inelegant are completely meaningless terms used to complain about balance changes with giving any kind of thought to it. The way blizzard is putting in tiny moddifications to things like damage bonuses and cargo size are very clever ways to balance the game without as many wide reaching side effects. I'll put it this way. If you are David Kim what is your "elegant" solution to all of this?
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On February 15 2013 04:06 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 03:20 Spyridon wrote:
The fact that you need someone else to post it on the Blizzard forums basically proves what I was saying earlier... that you don't even play the beta yet are complaining about balance. Why is that even allowed on these forums? Because you only need functioning brains combined with the willpower to use them + Show Spoiler +compared to "saving them for later" while not using them to analyze the game and find the really big flaws in the whole design philosophy behind SC2. Obviously you must be open minded enough to allow yourself to think about such things ... Quite obviously you are right in that the Battle Hellions arent the real problem, but that doesnt change the fact that the last two patches have been rather dubious and highly specific changes which add more rules to the game and make it more complicated ... rather than the reverse. KISS ... its as easy as that. Blizzard is simply putting in too many special conditions and the game would be much better if it had fewer of those ... even if that means not putting in fancy new units.
So basically what you are saying is that your are not in the beta, you have no personal experience using the new units and the only reason post in these threads is to express your opinion that HotS is poorly designed? All of your sights are based on watching other play and reading things on the forums. So your sole purpose in these threads is to crap on HotS and make sure that everyone knows much you dislike the design philosophy that Blizzard uses? Because if you aren’t here for new builds, insights into the new metagame because you don’t play HotS.
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On February 15 2013 04:33 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 04:24 i)awn wrote:
Some really good points esp about the Terran tech tree. To be honest I think it's mostly unfinished work and Blizzard knows that. The spore +damage to bio and the mine +damage to shields aren't elegant at all. There is a lot to fix and polish. This sort of comment is really irritating. Elegant and inelegant are completely meaningless terms used to complain about balance changes with giving any kind of thought to it. The way blizzard is putting in tiny moddifications to things like damage bonuses and cargo size are very clever ways to balance the game without as many wide reaching side effects. I'll put it this way. If you are David Kim what is your "elegant" solution to all of this?
I don't recall them making any awkward changes like this in WoL (although snipe +damage to psionic was a little strange) and it was reasonably balanced throughout its lifetime. There were stat tweaks here and there, but you never had oddly specific changes like +damage to shields.
If they keep going down this road we're going to start seeing crap like "+5 damage to mutalisks," which is basically what they want to put on spores, but it would be a little too blatant that they'd given up on not adding confusing stuff like this. Honestly, bonus biological damage on spores affects what units exactly? Overlords/overseers, brood lords, mutalisks and corruptors. None of these units are ever going to be in range of a spore but a mutalisk. They've basically just lumped bonus damage vs mutalisks into a broader category as though it hides how unnatural it is. It isn't very subtle and feels like a sharp contrast to their older patching philosophy.
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EPT
