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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:12 Grumbels wrote: IdrA said that the hellbat is too powerful in general, so isn't it weird to have awkward fixes to its use in drops at this point? Damn, Idra says a terran/protoss unit is too powerful? Better nerf it! | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:16 Bagi wrote: Damn, Idra says a terran/protoss unit is too powerful? Better nerf it! IdrA's opinion on balance and such is worth listening to. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:28 Grumbels wrote: IdrA's opinion on balance and such is worth listening to. And to be taken with a grain of salt as well, like every other professional player, because they all have an ax to grind. | ||
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Rokit5
236 Posts
On February 15 2013 03:45 Umpteen wrote: Sometimes an inelegant solution is the only one precise enough to do the job. With (new) Blizzard is in charge, apparently yes. The gameplay is what matters the most, but seriously you gotta wonder how things went so bad. I dont think Blizzard has any clue as to what theyre doing by now. Best we can do is to cross our fingers, and hope they dont mess it up too badly. One can only hope... | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:28 Grumbels wrote: IdrA's opinion on balance and such is worth listening to. IdrA is probably the last pro gamer I would listen to about balance... He is a good player and knows the game well, yes can't argue that... But he is also one of the biggest whiners on the face of the planet if we listened to his points about balance there would be only be Zerg left.... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 16 2013 02:42 Rabiator wrote: Browder can declare anything as "cool" and fanboys will follow. Yes Sir, because Dustin Browder invented unlimited selection. Yes Sir, rewriting history for you, Sir! | ||
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Rokit5
236 Posts
On February 16 2013 06:34 Necro)Phagist( wrote: IdrA is probably the last pro gamer I would listen to about balance... He is a good player and knows the game well, yes can't argue that... But he is also one of the biggest whiners on the face of the planet if we listened to his points about balance there would be only be Zerg left.... Thats stupid. Idra might be baised, but he needs the game to be a succes since its what he does for a living. If the game is unbalanced he will lose his job. Not something he wants. Idra IS a whiner, but thats part of his personality AND his image. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:12 Grumbels wrote: But elegance is a real word, invoking simplicity in form to achieve complexity. I don't think it's a stretch to say that hellbat design is not particularly elegant, regardless of your opinion on the meaning of the word. If you don't like such fuzzy concepts then okay, but the question still exists: is it okay to address the perceived strength of hellbat drops with this solution? I don't think it is. The hellbat does have good synergy with the medivac, but at its heart the problem was that they are too effective as combat units. IdrA said that the hellbat is too powerful in general, so isn't it weird to have awkward fixes to its use in drops at this point? I would say that the unit itself needs to be addressed and only then should something else be considered. Nevertheless, if we were several months into the live game and hellbats seemed fine in most scenarios except for in drop play, then by all means use a surgical fix like this, that precisely nerfs the one scenario where it's too powerful. Then I wouldn't complain too much about how contrived the fix was, I understand that you can't have an actual balanced game without resorting to such measures, - slightly changing the queen resulted in half a year of zerg being imbalanced - but until that point arrives I think other solutions should take precedent. What's going to happen now is that someone will put four hellions in a medivac, land them, transform them and see that he can't load all of them. He'll ask on a forum about why there is such a silly rule and the answer will have to be that in beta patch #13 hellbat drops were a problem. Now it's just a bandaid fix, but we'll be stuck with it for the rest of the game's lifespan. Blizzard has been extremely hesitant in reverting changes, - I honestly can't think of a good example of them doing otherwise - so this cargo change is never going to go away. Even if in the future hellbat drops are completely figured out, hellbats have been nerfed, hellbat counters have been buffed, they are unlikely to remove this cargo restriction, so that's why I dislike this change. Sure elegant is a word, but it's a word describing ones opinion. It doesn't have a static definition. On the topic of Hellbat design being elegant or not, that depends on what aspect you look at. Which is a perfect example of how opinionated the word is. You may say it's not elegant because it morphs from a Hellion, others may say that's an example of elegance. Some may say it's elegant in it's function, some may say it's not. Who is right? Is it okay to balance Hellbats with this solution? You say no because Hellbats are too effective as combat units. But that argument is flawed. Because you said yourself they have a great synergy with Medivacs. Outside of Medivac usage, do you really think Hellbats are a problem? Because unless you can say that with 100% certainty, the Hellbat as a unit is not too powerful. Idras opinion has been right in some circumstances, but he has also been known to voice his feelings, and his feelings have not always been correct. He had complaints about nearly every unit in the game at some point, and said Zerg was underpowered even when he was winning and Zergs performance was great. I don't know why you state this as evidence of a problem, but I could give you may examples, from Starcraft and outside starcraft (such as in the fighting game community) where top players voice problems they are having and they are not real issues once the metagame settles. You do realize that the beta has basically been public for months now, right? I'm not sure if you are playing the beta, but in HotS Hellbats became the standard opener on all levels of play, and this went in to tournament games, where the Hellbat openers not only made the games very 1 sided and/or random, but was not entertaining to watch at all. There was more than enough information to indicate there was a problem. This is besides the fact that 4 hellbats and a medivac reached the enemy bases before they even had defenses up. Look at the timings between all three races. Can you honestly say 4 Hellbats that 2 shot workers, and a medivac, at 6:30, is not an obvious issue with timings? Take control of replay helped a lot with testing this issue as well. If you took control of a replay from the earliest point you scouted, you could try to see if there was any effective way to defend it. Even in a best case scenario spending hundreds of resources on multiple static defenses, it was still hard to defend, and extremely random. Can you say that doesn't indicate a problem? You sort of contradict yourself as well. You state that we should wait months to see if things are imbalanced, yet you are determining Hellbats are too powerful. The unit itself hasn't really been a huge problem, which is why they are hesitant to nerf the unit itself .Same goes for Medivac. But for the reasons above, there was obvious issues with the early game synergy of Medivac/Hellbats. Note I specifically said early game. The synergy late game is awesome and could lead to some really good plays, especially with Ravens incorporated in to the mix. But early game definitely had some obvious issues. Your final paragraphs a bit silly imo. You don't need to go to a forum to see how much space a unit takes in a Medivac. And it's really not a bandaid fix. It works great, especailly because there are cues in game that indicate Hellbats are a different unit. Hell you could train them at a factory as their own unit. This situation is much more similar to Lings and Banelings being different units, even though they morph from the same unit. You do realize Banelings take more supply than a Zergling in drops, right? Have you seen people confused on the forums all though WoL because of that? This is no different. Your argument is flawed. The other reason I think the final paragraph is silly is because it's extremely presumptuous. You go on to say they will never revert this change, it has fixed the problem! Why would they revert it? Why would they go on to nerf the other units? The problems are gone... It's really silly if you dislike the problem because you assume it isn't enough (when all indications and testing show otherwise) and stand your ground that Hellbats are too strong, when they aren't causing a problem right now. That's all based on assumptions and not actual gameplay. How about actually playing the game for awhile, if you run in to a problem hop in to control from replay with a training partner, see if you could find a way to solve your problem, and then if you can't complaining that something is too strong? That's how you can determine real problems. | ||
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Niska
31 Posts
I am pretty confused with this whole elegant/inelegant discussion. You have to ask yourself one question is the game being balacned or unbalanced? What is elegant? Its perspective. Just like beauty. Balance is not the same. It is not based on perseptive it is based on results. Also, WTF are you people talking about it doesnt seem right about the hellbat needing more capacity because it doesn't make sense. You are retards. The BC in the cinematics is like 10000times bigger than it is in the game. Is that odd? The ultralisk surives like 15 tank shots and zerglings rape marines. This is about balance not what makes fucking sense. Please contribute something other than your personal thoughts on elegance. I will not go into detail why this thread should be closed but I have to say this. Show me the replays. Show me a replay where this "inelegant design" is affecting gameplay. I don't care if you have a red hammer next to your name either show me a god damn replay. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 16 2013 05:12 Grumbels wrote: But elegance is a real word, invoking simplicity in form to achieve complexity. I don't think it's a stretch to say that hellbat design is not particularly elegant, regardless of your opinion on the meaning of the word. If you don't like such fuzzy concepts then okay, but the question still exists: is it okay to address the perceived strength of hellbat drops with this solution? I don't think it is. The hellbat does have good synergy with the medivac, but at its heart the problem was that they are too effective as combat units. IdrA said that the hellbat is too powerful in general, so isn't it weird to have awkward fixes to its use in drops at this point? I would say that the unit itself needs to be addressed and only then should something else be considered. Nevertheless, if we were several months into the live game and hellbats seemed fine in most scenarios except for in drop play, then by all means use a surgical fix like this, that precisely nerfs the one scenario where it's too powerful. Then I wouldn't complain too much about how contrived the fix was, I understand that you can't have an actual balanced game without resorting to such measures, - slightly changing the queen resulted in half a year of zerg being imbalanced - but until that point arrives I think other solutions should take precedent. What's going to happen now is that someone will put four hellions in a medivac, land them, transform them and see that he can't load all of them. He'll ask on a forum about why there is such a silly rule and the answer will have to be that in beta patch #13 hellbat drops were a problem. Now it's just a bandaid fix, but we'll be stuck with it for the rest of the game's lifespan. Blizzard has been extremely hesitant in reverting changes, - I honestly can't think of a good example of them doing otherwise - so this cargo change is never going to go away. Even if in the future hellbat drops are completely figured out, hellbats have been nerfed, hellbat counters have been buffed, they are unlikely to remove this cargo restriction, so that's why I dislike this change. But the change does make sense! They gave the Hellion driver about 2 tonnes of burgers. The Hellion then increased in biological mass as well as increased in supply size. IE--It's a fucking fat Hellion driver that needs heals and takes up more room in a medivac! Call it the all american upgrade. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:00 Thieving Magpie wrote: But the change does make sense! They gave the Hellion driver about 2 tonnes of burgers. The Hellion then increased in biological mass as well as increased in supply size. IE--It's a fucking fat Hellion driver that needs heals and takes up more room in a medivac! Call it the all american upgrade. I think it makes more sense that the hellions since the hellions are now a different shape, they don't fit as neatly into the medivac. Its like my slacks when I put them in my suite case. Two folds and I can file like 8 pairs in. But get up to that third fold and I can get like max 3 in there. #volume. As for the bio upgrade, explain SCVs to me. They are clearly robots with little man drivers in them, but clearly robot suits. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 16 2013 06:57 Niska wrote: Hellbat drop timing at 6 30 is not unfair at all. A four gate will hit you at 6:00. Any good player will be scouting and should be able to tell if a hellbat drop is coming by now. I am pretty confused with this whole elegant/inelegant discussion. You have to ask yourself one question is the game being balacned or unbalanced? What is elegant? Its perspective. Just like beauty. Balance is not the same. It is not based on perseptive it is based on results. I will not go into detail why this thread should be closed but I have to say this. Show me the replays. Show me a replay where this "inelegant design" is affecting gameplay. I don't care if you have a red hammer next to your name either show me a god damn replay. Elegance is the attempt at having the most complexity come out from the most simplicity. Go is more Elegant than chess, since it is simpler. Chess is more elegant than Axis and Allies, since it is simpler. And so on and so forth. The argument is not about whether it *is* elegant or whether it *isn't* elegant. The question is how much of a remove from consistent logic are we willing to step back? Two lings from one egg is weird--but twins *can* happen, so we say "okay." Siege Tanks counted as Biological in BW, now Hellbats count as biological in SC2--a bit weird, but kind of makes sense sort of. Hellions get fat when they stand up--weird, but Ultras got fat in SC2 as well so I can see *some* kind of logic. The question is whether this logic is acceptable or are we reaching Red Alert 2 war dolphins and time traveling soldiers level? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:09 Plansix wrote: I think it makes more sense that the hellions since the hellions are now a different shape, they don't fit as neatly into the medivac. Its like my slacks when I put them in my suite case. Two folds and I can file like 8 pairs in. But get up to that third fold and I can get like max 3 in there. #volume. As for the bio upgrade, explain SCVs to me. They are clearly robots with little man drivers in them, but clearly robot suits. SCVs defending a 6pool SCV vs Zergling | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
What does that have to do with them being healed by medivacs, but also being able to be repaired? | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:19 Plansix wrote: What does that have to do with them being healed by medivacs, but also being able to be repaired? Why marines and marauders can't be repaired? They are obviously guys in a mechanical suit much like SCV. | ||
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Niska
31 Posts
Thank you for clearing that up for me. So this is a very perspective based thread on whether people think SC2 HOTS is logical. Well there are many lines that need to be drawn. Where is the logic in space marines, predators, and swarms of biological zerg all fighting against each other for universal dominion. I just do not understand the point of this thread. What are you trying to accomplish? Ok so if you are right and they are being illogical. But they are still balancing the game without taking to much out. They have spent hundreds of hours figureing out each units specs and their synergy. But instead of worrying about that this thread wants to worry if they are being logical. I still do not see the point. They are not crossing any lines of logic to me. So a hellbat fits two spaces and not 1. That is not to illogical. It solves a problem without having to rework the game. If you do not understand that logic then you are blind to the programming world and the progamming world. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:26 Mehukannu wrote: Why marines and marauders can't be repaired? They are obviously guys in a mechanical suit much like SCV. Its all madness. Its like the label have nothing to do with reality and are just their for balances purposes. I mean, I can't play a game that labels a jet fighter as light along with a guy who wears armor and lights with laser swords on his hands. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:29 Plansix wrote: Its all madness. Its like the label have nothing to do with reality and are just their for balances purposes. I mean, I can't play a game that labels a jet fighter as light along with a guy who wears armor and lights with laser swords on his hands. Yeah, who would have thought. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 16 2013 07:29 Plansix wrote: Its all madness. Its like the label have nothing to do with reality and are just their for balances purposes. I mean, I can't play a game that labels a jet fighter as light along with a guy who wears armor and lights with laser swords on his hands. I like your humor. | ||
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