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After Balance Patch 13 and 14 I feel Blizzard has begun to favor inelegant balance solutions instead of elegent design choices in order to prepare HOTS for release, and it's having an adverse effect on Terran unit strength and tech advancement.
The Hellbat is an under costed, poorly designed unit as it is. Besides the logical inconsistencies of transforming from a car that can't be healed into a suit of armor that can be healed by a Medivac by gaining the biological attribute, it now apparently increases in mass and size thru' transformation to the point where 4 Hellions could fit in a Medivac but now only 2 Hellbats can fit in a Medivac in arguably one of the most illogical, and inefectual, ways to nerf Hellbat drops (Terrans can still circumvent the nerf by building a Reactor on the Barracks, exchanging the Reactor with the Factory for 4 Hellions and then exchanging the Reactor with the Starport for 2 Medivacs and have an equivalent drop)
If Blizzard wants to retain the current power level of the Hellbats, then the problem Blizzard has to address is the timing of the Hellbat drops and the tech advancement of the Terran race. As it stands, the Armory is the key offender, because for 150/100 resources and 65 seconds of build time the Armory gives Terrans an upgrade from Hellions to Hellbats, access to Thors, access to 2/2 infantry upgrades and access to 1/0 vehicle upgrades compared to spending 25/25 resources and 25 seconds of build time on a Tech Lab and 150/150 resources and 110 seconds of research time on Infernal Pre Igniter. As it is, who would build a Tech Lab and research Infernal Pre-Igniter over building a Reactor and an Armory in any build order in HOTS? What incentive does Terran have to reduce their production capacity for Hellions and Widow Mines, delay their Battle Hellions and vehicle upgrades in favor of a dead end tech path?
Building an Armory is just clearly superior to researching Infernal Pre-Igniter in HOTS, and after removing Siege Tech and buffing Siege Tanks what does Terran have to actually bother researching at the Tech Lab in any build order? Now that Siege Tanks receive free Siege Tech, researching Infernal Pre-Igniter is clearly worse than an Armory, Infernal Pre-Igniter is no longer compatible with Battle Hellions and Drilling Claws are by no means necessary, Blizzard has only succeeded in making Terran Mech's tech path Factory -> Armory.
As it is, Blizzard has retarded Terran's ability to open Proxy Reapers into Hellbat drop by increasing the cargo space of Hellbat, because they either need to build the Barracks at home in order to produce a Reactor for the Factory and Starport or Terrans have to transform the Hellions in the opponent's base and can only micro 2 of the 4 Hellbats with the Medivac. And while I'm sure this will be a nuisance to the Terran Hellbat drop, it does nothing to address other Hellbat timing attacks or give the Factory Tech Lab upgrades any signifigance.
Furthermore, in TvZ Terrans can all but shut down early Zerg aggression with Siege Tanks that gain free Siege Tech immediately and burrowed Widow Mines. Burrowed Widow Mines aside, what difference has free Siege Tech made in TvP that merrits soft countering early aggression in TvZ? Is Mech any more viable in TvP after giving Siege Tanks free Siege Tech? Arguably no, and TvZ has only suffered for it (as well as the intelligable game design of the Factory Tech Lab).
If Blizzard wants to address the balance of Hellbat drops while reducing the utility of the Armory and making the Factory Tech Lab relevant, I believe Blizzard should removed the Infernal Pre Igniter upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab and replace it with the Transformation Servos upgrade and return Siege Tech to the Tech Lab. By requiring Terrans to build a Tech Lab in order to research Transformation Servos, Blizzard can more effectively cost and delay the arrival of Hellbats while making players choose thoughtfully between a Reactor for production, a Tech Lab for upgrades and Transformation Servos for Hellbats or Siege Tech for Siege Mode while the Armory still remains relevant for providing access to Thors and upgrades. Blizzard could try Transformation Servos for 150/150 resources and 110 seconds build time, remove the Armory requirement and adjust from there.
The Hellbat aside, the second problem is the Spore Crawler, Overlord speed upgrade and the Widow Mine. While I feel the Widow Mine has come into its own as a unit in TvZ, the problem is that the Widow Mine's Burrow has forced Blizzard to make "odd" changes to Zerg's detection and scouting by giving Zerg free access to Spore Crawler tech and moving the Overlord speed upgrade to the Hatchery. The problem tho' is that giving Zerg free Spore Crawler tech does not allow Zerg to be aggressive vs an opponent who is using Widow Mines defensively and the Overlord speed upgrade is a very costly investment in the early stages of the game for scouting information.
In order for Blizzard to address the impact of the Widow Mine in TvZ, I think it'd be better if Blizzard returned the Spore Crawler tech to the Evolution Chamber and moved Overseer tech to the Hatchery instead of Overlord speed tech. That way, Zerg could gain additional scouting information for only 50/50 resources and significantly sooner compared to the Overlord speed upgrade and give detection that the Zerg could use both offensively and defensively vs a player using Widows Mines either offensively or defensively. Furthermore, it prevents Zerg from having multiple, annoying ways of denying opponent's from taking their 2nd or 3rd by either Burrowing a unit or puking creep so early. If having access to the Overseer tech so early reduces the skill level of knowing when to send in Overlords for scouting information or prove too great of a soft counter vs other cloaked units, then Overseer tech could require an Evolution Chamber as well in order to delay the timing of the Overseer and require Zerg to tech to detection regardless of whether or not its an Overseer or Spore Crawler.
Anyway, I'm sure this is TLDR for the majority of TOL, but I really think Blizzard's "ugly" design choices in favor of rash balancing has impacted SC2 and HOTS for the worse. Early Zerg aggression vs Terrans is just in a laughable state after the free Siege Tech and Widow Mine, Hellbats are still too early (and or fast) in the tech tree and the upgrades at the Factory Tech Lab are no where near as meaningful as Barracks Tech Lab or even the Starport Tech Lab (getting Cloak for Banshees is still a major build order decision compared to anything the Factory Tech Lab has to offer).
There are just my ideas on how to get Terran's tech path back in line and bring TvZ closer into balance for the early game. Because as it stands, Blizzards current design choices for Terrans are just inorganic and TvZ has lost a lot of early aggression options for Zerg in HOTS that really takes away from the race's versatility in the match up. I could probably say the same for the MSC in TvP, but that's another thread entirely.
Thanks for reading, and if anyone could repost this to the Blizzard forums I would appreciate it.
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Although I agree with most of things you wrote, having overseer at hacthery would mean too easy scouting. I don't think it would be good.
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On February 14 2013 22:07 Tuczniak wrote:
Although I agree with most of things you wrote, having overseer at hacthery would mean too easy scouting. I don't think it would be good.
I agree with your criticism in sentiment, because I don't want to eliminate the playskill of knowing when to send in Overlords for scouting information either. However, the problem is that Zerg is the only race without access to mobile detection in the early game in order to off set the Widow Mine - Terrans can Scan and Protoss can build either Observers or Oracles much earlier than Zerg can research Lair and Morph Overseers.
I think you can move Overseers to Hatchery tech, require an Evolution Chamber amd increase the morph time in order to get Overseers onto the field either slightly before or slightly after Widow Mines come online while not making them an uber scout. It makes some sense, because the structure for upgrades + anti-air + detection is a Broodwar and Starcraft staple tech structure, and considering Zerg already have mobile detection in the form of the Spore Crawler (sort of) I don't think increasing that mobile detection to an Overseer is that unreasonable.
A drone, 75/0 resources, 35 seconds of build time, 50/50 resources and 17 seconds of morph time is 1 Drone, 125/50 resources and 52 seconds for an Overseer compared to reduced Queen production, 100/100 resources and 60 seconds research time. Yeah, moving Overseers to Hatchery tech + requires Evolution Chamber is functionally equivalent to moving Overlord speed to Hatchery tech in terms of scouting the opponent's base and it allows Zerg to mount an offensive vs. Widow Mines - I think it's a significantly better decision than free Spore Crawler tech and Overlord speed at Hatchery.
Edit: It also addresses Burrow in ZvZ, which is an added benefit.
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Why not give queens detection for energy?
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I probably agree with your opinions about Hellbats, so I can't be arsed to read all that text sorry!
On the case of overseer at Hatchery, I think it's completely unreasonable to say that Protoss gets their mobile detection earlier than Overseer, as the only reason that it is the case in the current metagame is because protosses tech straight to those tech buildings. If Zerg went Pool -> Lair asap, they would get the overseer quicker than Protoss.
The fact that you can stay on hatchery tech for so long only proves the point that Zerg tier 1 is increadibly powerful, moving overseers to hatchery tech would only empower that notion.
User was warned for this post
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I thought the increased medivac room was quite a good solution to the problem as it fixed hellbat drops without nerfing either unit.
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On February 14 2013 22:46 Breach_hu wrote:
Why not give queens detection for energy?
yes, if mothershipcore finally gets envision back...
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When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly.
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On February 14 2013 21:39 MoonCricket wrote:
(Terrans can still circumvent the nerf by building a Reactor on the Barracks, exchanging the Reactor with the Factory for 4 Hellions and then exchanging the Reactor with the Starport for 2 Medivacs and have an equivalent drop)
that's not an "equivalent drop" at all.. it'll hit later and cost more. That's basically what HB drops needed anyway, they were available too early. That said, Blizzard's design choices since basically the start of the beta have been completely ridiculous. They've been throwing shit at walls, in an attempt to see what sticks -- if they just stuck with their original concepts more closely while at the same time adding more units (why just 3 per race?) and fixed some of the fundamentally broken concepts of WOL, HOTS would've been in a much better place. Blizzard have been both directionless and afraid to deviate from WOL "balance" (which is a badly balanced product as it currently stands) As it is, HOTS is not worth the price of entry
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Not much to discuss, but I agree :D
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On February 14 2013 22:54 moskonia wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly.
The idea of the thread was that Blizzard's current design solutions for the Hellbat are "ugly and illogical" and that they don't address the issues of Hellbats still being an under costed, over powered unit for the minimal tech investment of an Armory and that the Factory Tech Lab upgrades no longer have any signifigance on Terran build orders. Infernal Pre-Igniters do not affect Hellbats, and building the Armory is a more cost effective investment than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniters anyway. Siege Tech is still free, despite not accomplishing its stated goal of making Mech viable in TvP, and it has had a significant impact on early Zerg aggression in TvZ, As long as Siege Tech is not an upgrade and Infernal Pre-Igniters are an ineffectual upgrade for Hellions compared to the Armory, the Factory Tech Lab upgrades will have no sigificant role in Terran build orders compared to the Barracks Tech Lab upgrades and Starport Tech Lab upgrades.
I'm not whining, I'm a random player, this is a discussion based on how Blizzard is choosing to buff and nerf Terran and its indirect effects on the Terran tech tree and ZvT. Their decisions aren't addressing the imbalance in TvZ, from free Siege Tech affecting Zerg timing attacks to free Spore Crawlers not affecting Widow Mine's ability to stop counter attacks and that if Blizzards looks at alternatives to solving its problems, from returning Siege Tech to the Tech Lab, replacing Infernal Pre-Igniters with Transformation Servos, returning the Spore Crawler to the Evolution Chamber, moving Overseer tech to Hatchery + requires Evolution Chamber then Blizzard can institute similar changes in terms of what they want to accomplish with out arbitrary, illogical changes like 1) Hellbats, which have quivalent size and mass to a Hellion, taking up twice as much space in a Medivac 2) Infernal Pre-Igniter being an upgrade that only affects the flamethrower of one unit when it is transformed into car mode but mysteriously doesn't affect the same unit when transformed into battle armor mode 3) Zerg getting essentially free tech for anti-air and immobile detection compared to the other races having to tech to anti-air and immobile detection etc. that just make you scratch your head and say WTF.
I think you can look at the design philosphy of what they are doing as a whole, like giving Spore Crawler and Widow Mines bonus Biological and Shield damage, but size, armor and category type damage bonuses are a far cry from being clearly bad design decisions compared to a transforming Hellion that increases in size and mass, Infernal Pre-Igniters that stop working in armor mode and re-writing almost canon design decisions like researching Siege Tech or a building being required for a races anti-air, immobile detection structure. I think the balance decision are ugly, and I gave examples of how design decisions regarding the Armory, Tech Lab, upgrades and moving minor tech downwards in the Zerg tech structure will accomplish what they want better without being nearly as hideous to look at.
I'm sorry I can't address the problems in TvP in the same thread from an overall perspective of inelegant balance vs elegant design, but there's only so much one thread can address. If you think that's silly, then you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome to write something better.
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I am one of the people who doesn't care how they balance the game, as long at they do it. These threads about the "elegance" of specific design choices seem to accomplish very little and provide few solutions beyond "do it better". Blizzard seems focused on keeping units powerful, while limiting their ability to be used in cheap ways. I think this is good for the game, but leads to some odd thing that are done to balance the game. But it keeps the game active and units powerful, which is what we need.
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Russian Federation216 Posts
i fully agree, and i wonder how fast they make such retarded changes if terrans have slightly more power..
i imagine blizzard office where stupid non-gamer manager asks Kim or Browder "People complain to me for your.. those.. humans.. WTF, if you got another mass complainig to humans we'll lose 10% of our sells, DO SOMETHING, search on forums" and they're like "but.. oh... wai.. wa... okay, we'll release a patch tomorrow" and he say: "NO, I NEED THAT PATDC OR WHATEVER YOU MEAN BY THIS WORD TODAY"!
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On February 14 2013 23:43 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 22:54 moskonia wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly. The idea of the thread was that Blizzard's current design solutions for the Hellbat are "ugly and illogical" and that they don't address the issues of Hellbats still being an under costed, over powered unit for the minimal tech investment of an Armory and that the Factory Tech Lab upgrades no longer have any signifigance on Terran build orders. Infernal Pre-Igniters do not affect Hellbats, and building the Armory is a more cost effective investment than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniters anyway. Siege Tech is still free, despite not accomplishing its stated goal of making Mech viable in TvP, and it has had a significant impact on early Zerg aggression in TvZ, As long as Siege Tech is not an upgrade and Infernal Pre-Igniters are an ineffectual upgrade for Hellions compared to the Armory, the Factory Tech Lab upgrades will have no sigificant role in Terran build orders compared to the Barracks Tech Lab upgrades and Starport Tech Lab upgrades. I'm not whining, I'm a random player, this is a discussion based on how Blizzard is choosing to buff and nerf Terran and its indirect effects on the Terran tech tree and ZvT. Their decisions aren't addressing the imbalance in TvZ, from free Siege Tech affecting Zerg timing attacks to free Spore Crawlers not affecting Widow Mine's ability to stop counter attacks and that if Blizzards looks at alternatives to solving its problems, from returning Siege Tech to the Tech Lab, replacing Infernal Pre-Igniters with Transformation Servos, returning the Spore Crawler to the Evolution Chamber, moving Overseer tech to Hatchery + requires Evolution Chamber then Blizzard can institute similar changes in terms of what they want to accomplish with out arbitrary, illogical changes like 1) Hellbats, which have quivalent size and mass to a Hellion, taking up twice as much space in a Medivac 2) Infernal Pre-Igniter being an upgrade that only affects the flamethrower of one unit when it is transformed into car mode but mysteriously doesn't affect the same unit when transformed into battle armor mode 3) Zerg getting essentially free tech for anti-air and immobile detection compared to the other races having to tech to anti-air and immobile detection etc. that just make you scratch your head and say WTF. I think you can look at the design philosphy of what they are doing as a whole, like giving Spore Crawler and Widow Mines bonus Biological and Shield damage, but size, armor and category type damage bonuses are a far cry from being clearly bad design decisions compared to a transforming Hellion that increases in size and mass, Infernal Pre-Igniters that stop working in armor mode and re-writing almost canon design decisions like researching Siege Tech or a building being required for a races anti-air, immobile detection structure. I think the balance decision are ugly, and I gave examples of how design decisions regarding the Armory, Tech Lab, upgrades and moving minor tech downwards in the Zerg tech structure will accomplish what they want better without being nearly as hideous to look at. I'm sorry I can't address the problems in TvP in the same thread from an overall perspective of inelegant balance vs elegant design, but there's only so much one thread can address. If you think that's silly, then you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome to write something better.
Well, if you really want to get into inelegant balance vs elegant design. You have to start with AoEs and why some have friendly fire and some don't. How do zealots avoid splash from their own colossi? How to Zerg units avoid fungals from their own infestors?
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doing any whine is dumb this is not earth but starcraft
nothing needs to be perfectly logical if its balanced in rts
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On February 14 2013 23:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 23:43 MoonCricket wrote:On February 14 2013 22:54 moskonia wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly. The idea of the thread was that Blizzard's current design solutions for the Hellbat are "ugly and illogical" and that they don't address the issues of Hellbats still being an under costed, over powered unit for the minimal tech investment of an Armory and that the Factory Tech Lab upgrades no longer have any signifigance on Terran build orders. Infernal Pre-Igniters do not affect Hellbats, and building the Armory is a more cost effective investment than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniters anyway. Siege Tech is still free, despite not accomplishing its stated goal of making Mech viable in TvP, and it has had a significant impact on early Zerg aggression in TvZ, As long as Siege Tech is not an upgrade and Infernal Pre-Igniters are an ineffectual upgrade for Hellions compared to the Armory, the Factory Tech Lab upgrades will have no sigificant role in Terran build orders compared to the Barracks Tech Lab upgrades and Starport Tech Lab upgrades. I'm not whining, I'm a random player, this is a discussion based on how Blizzard is choosing to buff and nerf Terran and its indirect effects on the Terran tech tree and ZvT. Their decisions aren't addressing the imbalance in TvZ, from free Siege Tech affecting Zerg timing attacks to free Spore Crawlers not affecting Widow Mine's ability to stop counter attacks and that if Blizzards looks at alternatives to solving its problems, from returning Siege Tech to the Tech Lab, replacing Infernal Pre-Igniters with Transformation Servos, returning the Spore Crawler to the Evolution Chamber, moving Overseer tech to Hatchery + requires Evolution Chamber then Blizzard can institute similar changes in terms of what they want to accomplish with out arbitrary, illogical changes like 1) Hellbats, which have quivalent size and mass to a Hellion, taking up twice as much space in a Medivac 2) Infernal Pre-Igniter being an upgrade that only affects the flamethrower of one unit when it is transformed into car mode but mysteriously doesn't affect the same unit when transformed into battle armor mode 3) Zerg getting essentially free tech for anti-air and immobile detection compared to the other races having to tech to anti-air and immobile detection etc. that just make you scratch your head and say WTF. I think you can look at the design philosphy of what they are doing as a whole, like giving Spore Crawler and Widow Mines bonus Biological and Shield damage, but size, armor and category type damage bonuses are a far cry from being clearly bad design decisions compared to a transforming Hellion that increases in size and mass, Infernal Pre-Igniters that stop working in armor mode and re-writing almost canon design decisions like researching Siege Tech or a building being required for a races anti-air, immobile detection structure. I think the balance decision are ugly, and I gave examples of how design decisions regarding the Armory, Tech Lab, upgrades and moving minor tech downwards in the Zerg tech structure will accomplish what they want better without being nearly as hideous to look at. I'm sorry I can't address the problems in TvP in the same thread from an overall perspective of inelegant balance vs elegant design, but there's only so much one thread can address. If you think that's silly, then you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome to write something better. Well, if you really want to get into inelegant balance vs elegant design. You have to start with AoEs and why some have friendly fire and some don't. How do zealots avoid splash from their own colossi? How to Zerg units avoid fungals from their own infestors?
Obviously not everything can make perfect sense, the difference tho' is that whenever something can make sense then it should make sense if at all possible. My point is there are other, precedented changes that Blizzard considered regarding Hellbats, Transformation Servos, that would be a better mechanism for adjusting the resources and time necessary to access Hellbats than the Armory, which has a fixed resource cost and build time compared to an upgrade which could have a variable resources cost and research time based on playtesting, and Hellbats magically growing in mass and size in order to keep them from filling a Medivac.
So, I agree, some things just don't make sense, but it's a matter of degree to which they don't make sense. Magically growing Hellbats and mysteriously de-activing Infernal Pre Igniters are just unnecessarily illogical.
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I like what you said a lot. Many of the points are really spot on.
Siege upgrade removal was a really awkward way to make mech viable in TvP. Spore for early detection against widow mine as well.
I feel like they are getting lazy on how they approach the balance issues
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On February 15 2013 00:01 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2013 23:54 vthree wrote:On February 14 2013 23:43 MoonCricket wrote:On February 14 2013 22:54 moskonia wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly. The idea of the thread was that Blizzard's current design solutions for the Hellbat are "ugly and illogical" and that they don't address the issues of Hellbats still being an under costed, over powered unit for the minimal tech investment of an Armory and that the Factory Tech Lab upgrades no longer have any signifigance on Terran build orders. Infernal Pre-Igniters do not affect Hellbats, and building the Armory is a more cost effective investment than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniters anyway. Siege Tech is still free, despite not accomplishing its stated goal of making Mech viable in TvP, and it has had a significant impact on early Zerg aggression in TvZ, As long as Siege Tech is not an upgrade and Infernal Pre-Igniters are an ineffectual upgrade for Hellions compared to the Armory, the Factory Tech Lab upgrades will have no sigificant role in Terran build orders compared to the Barracks Tech Lab upgrades and Starport Tech Lab upgrades. I'm not whining, I'm a random player, this is a discussion based on how Blizzard is choosing to buff and nerf Terran and its indirect effects on the Terran tech tree and ZvT. Their decisions aren't addressing the imbalance in TvZ, from free Siege Tech affecting Zerg timing attacks to free Spore Crawlers not affecting Widow Mine's ability to stop counter attacks and that if Blizzards looks at alternatives to solving its problems, from returning Siege Tech to the Tech Lab, replacing Infernal Pre-Igniters with Transformation Servos, returning the Spore Crawler to the Evolution Chamber, moving Overseer tech to Hatchery + requires Evolution Chamber then Blizzard can institute similar changes in terms of what they want to accomplish with out arbitrary, illogical changes like 1) Hellbats, which have quivalent size and mass to a Hellion, taking up twice as much space in a Medivac 2) Infernal Pre-Igniter being an upgrade that only affects the flamethrower of one unit when it is transformed into car mode but mysteriously doesn't affect the same unit when transformed into battle armor mode 3) Zerg getting essentially free tech for anti-air and immobile detection compared to the other races having to tech to anti-air and immobile detection etc. that just make you scratch your head and say WTF. I think you can look at the design philosphy of what they are doing as a whole, like giving Spore Crawler and Widow Mines bonus Biological and Shield damage, but size, armor and category type damage bonuses are a far cry from being clearly bad design decisions compared to a transforming Hellion that increases in size and mass, Infernal Pre-Igniters that stop working in armor mode and re-writing almost canon design decisions like researching Siege Tech or a building being required for a races anti-air, immobile detection structure. I think the balance decision are ugly, and I gave examples of how design decisions regarding the Armory, Tech Lab, upgrades and moving minor tech downwards in the Zerg tech structure will accomplish what they want better without being nearly as hideous to look at. I'm sorry I can't address the problems in TvP in the same thread from an overall perspective of inelegant balance vs elegant design, but there's only so much one thread can address. If you think that's silly, then you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome to write something better. Well, if you really want to get into inelegant balance vs elegant design. You have to start with AoEs and why some have friendly fire and some don't. How do zealots avoid splash from their own colossi? How to Zerg units avoid fungals from their own infestors? Obviously not everything can make perfect sense, the difference tho' is that whenever something can make sense then it should make sense if at all possible. My point is there are other, precedented changes that Blizzard considered regarding Hellbats, Transformation Servos, that would be a better mechanism for adjusting the resources and time necessary to access Hellbats than the Armory, which has a fixed resource cost and build time compared to an upgrade which could have a variable resources cost and research time based on playtesting, and Hellbats magically growing in mass and size in order to keep them from filling a Medivac. So, I agree, some things just don't make sense, but it's a matter of degree to which they don't make sense. Magically growing Hellbats and mysteriously de-activing Infernal Pre Igniters are just unnecessarily illogical.
Problem with your suggestion is that you seem to be changing a lot of the moving parts. It might be feasible if Blizzard had more time to tweak. Although the cargo change is not elegant, it is only 1 change and will have minimal affect once multiple medivacs are out and it does delay the timing which was the main concern.
I am not saying your ideas are bad. They might even be better. But your changes could have much larger affect on the rest of the game. Think of how just changing range on queens and speeding up OLs did to WoL TvZ.
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On February 15 2013 00:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2013 00:01 MoonCricket wrote:On February 14 2013 23:54 vthree wrote:On February 14 2013 23:43 MoonCricket wrote:On February 14 2013 22:54 moskonia wrote:
When I first read the title I thought this will be a discussion on the way to balance a game, not balance suggestions and a whine fest. You do mention some of the design, but you're clearly not focusing on that. I suggest you try to focus on either making a suggestion or on the design of the game, cause making both makes your post pretty silly. The idea of the thread was that Blizzard's current design solutions for the Hellbat are "ugly and illogical" and that they don't address the issues of Hellbats still being an under costed, over powered unit for the minimal tech investment of an Armory and that the Factory Tech Lab upgrades no longer have any signifigance on Terran build orders. Infernal Pre-Igniters do not affect Hellbats, and building the Armory is a more cost effective investment than building a Tech Lab and researching Infernal Pre-Igniters anyway. Siege Tech is still free, despite not accomplishing its stated goal of making Mech viable in TvP, and it has had a significant impact on early Zerg aggression in TvZ, As long as Siege Tech is not an upgrade and Infernal Pre-Igniters are an ineffectual upgrade for Hellions compared to the Armory, the Factory Tech Lab upgrades will have no sigificant role in Terran build orders compared to the Barracks Tech Lab upgrades and Starport Tech Lab upgrades. I'm not whining, I'm a random player, this is a discussion based on how Blizzard is choosing to buff and nerf Terran and its indirect effects on the Terran tech tree and ZvT. Their decisions aren't addressing the imbalance in TvZ, from free Siege Tech affecting Zerg timing attacks to free Spore Crawlers not affecting Widow Mine's ability to stop counter attacks and that if Blizzards looks at alternatives to solving its problems, from returning Siege Tech to the Tech Lab, replacing Infernal Pre-Igniters with Transformation Servos, returning the Spore Crawler to the Evolution Chamber, moving Overseer tech to Hatchery + requires Evolution Chamber then Blizzard can institute similar changes in terms of what they want to accomplish with out arbitrary, illogical changes like 1) Hellbats, which have quivalent size and mass to a Hellion, taking up twice as much space in a Medivac 2) Infernal Pre-Igniter being an upgrade that only affects the flamethrower of one unit when it is transformed into car mode but mysteriously doesn't affect the same unit when transformed into battle armor mode 3) Zerg getting essentially free tech for anti-air and immobile detection compared to the other races having to tech to anti-air and immobile detection etc. that just make you scratch your head and say WTF. I think you can look at the design philosphy of what they are doing as a whole, like giving Spore Crawler and Widow Mines bonus Biological and Shield damage, but size, armor and category type damage bonuses are a far cry from being clearly bad design decisions compared to a transforming Hellion that increases in size and mass, Infernal Pre-Igniters that stop working in armor mode and re-writing almost canon design decisions like researching Siege Tech or a building being required for a races anti-air, immobile detection structure. I think the balance decision are ugly, and I gave examples of how design decisions regarding the Armory, Tech Lab, upgrades and moving minor tech downwards in the Zerg tech structure will accomplish what they want better without being nearly as hideous to look at. I'm sorry I can't address the problems in TvP in the same thread from an overall perspective of inelegant balance vs elegant design, but there's only so much one thread can address. If you think that's silly, then you're entitled to your own opinion and welcome to write something better. Well, if you really want to get into inelegant balance vs elegant design. You have to start with AoEs and why some have friendly fire and some don't. How do zealots avoid splash from their own colossi? How to Zerg units avoid fungals from their own infestors? Obviously not everything can make perfect sense, the difference tho' is that whenever something can make sense then it should make sense if at all possible. My point is there are other, precedented changes that Blizzard considered regarding Hellbats, Transformation Servos, that would be a better mechanism for adjusting the resources and time necessary to access Hellbats than the Armory, which has a fixed resource cost and build time compared to an upgrade which could have a variable resources cost and research time based on playtesting, and Hellbats magically growing in mass and size in order to keep them from filling a Medivac. So, I agree, some things just don't make sense, but it's a matter of degree to which they don't make sense. Magically growing Hellbats and mysteriously de-activing Infernal Pre Igniters are just unnecessarily illogical. Problem with your suggestion is that you seem to be changing a lot of the moving parts. It might be feasible if Blizzard had more time to tweak. Although the cargo change is not elegant, it is only 1 change and will have minimal affect once multiple medivacs are out and it does delay the timing which was the main concern. I am not saying your ideas are bad. They might even be better. But your changes could have much larger affect on the rest of the game. Think of how just changing range on queens and speeding up OLs did to WoL TvZ.
Half of the changes I'm suggesting are reverting the changes that Blizzard implemented, free Spore Crawler tech, free Siege Tech tech and using pre-existing upgrades like Transformation Servos as a balancing mechanism for Hellbats. Other than losing the Infernal Pre-Igniter buff for Hellions in the late game and giving Zerg earlier, mobile detection (a form of which previously existed in BW) can you think of anyway my suggestion would adversely affect the balance of the game from WoL as a starting point?
Returning to precedent doesn't seem nearly as dramatic as a range and speed buff.
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Oh did they remove the mechanical unit flag from the Hellbat? Didn't noticed. Or the OP isn't really informed as it was one of the main topics everywhere that you can heal and repair them at once.
But the OP, besides just ranting about Hellbats. Hits a few nice points. The last changes from Blizzard were not elegant and just felt like: "well we don't know how to fix the ideas we brought in in any other way".
I may dislike the Spore crawler change though, because it is exactly what I was worried about with them introducing Muta regen. The need for something that kills Mutas not only weakening them.
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