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That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP.
Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me.
Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
-Kyo- I know you're a pretty good player and all but can you really not see why they were removed and that protoss didn't need anything to replace it? It was broken, not just OP but broken. Also, protoss is already really good (IMO the most powerful race in HOTS ATM) and doesn't need a buff. Bringing amulet back would just break the game again.
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AS a protoss, that would be super powerful and make PvT a joke since couple HT could melt everything... like EVERYTHING! lol
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Maybe if there was a HUGE change to the warp-in mechanic - or storm. As is, ghosts and inestors take time to build - HT don't.
The bottom line is that if storm can be instantly warped in ANYWHERE (there's a pylon) there would need to be something to offset it.
edit:
On February 14 2013 01:41 rEalGuapo wrote:
+15 energy would be nice to get, clumping your templar for a second meanst one EMP is gonna eat your Storms and you will lose your entire army before you get a new one thanks to the insane DPS of bio armies.
+25 would obviously be OP but with +15 energy Terran has 15 seconds from the moment the warpin starts until a storm can be cast to get off an EMP. That would weaken them offensively a ton but means you can still warp in templar and storm at home if you took one EMP..
Even with only +15 energy you're talking about storm in 15 second. Compare that to ghost (40 seconds) or an infestor (50), you're still talking about getting storm in less than half the time it takes to get emp/fg out... Then factor in possible travel time?
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No no no, they removed khaydarin amulet because of the beyond stupid situation it created. Back when it was basically 2 base all-in vs 2 base all-in, you would crush the protoss army, he would warp in a templar and a sentry at his mains ramp and then you would lose the majority of your army trying to end the game, then because of production time his zealots would be attacking you at your base while your production cycle is only half way through.
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you could have storm anywhere anytime...
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I think the time it takes for a templar to gain energy to storm is equal to the time it takes for the warp gate to cool down. That means in one reverse "production cycle" you get a storm. With the other two races they have to get an upgrade to have emp/fungal after one of their production cycles. The trade off is we have to have our expensive gas units vulnerable before we can cast vs them being in a building or egg where they can be canceled for money back. The argument could also be that the move time to get a caster to desired location is time, so the time to move is a trade for safety of the unit. I personally like being able to warp in templar at each base and just leave them there vs having to find my rally of units and split them up. When I play terran finding units is annoying (because I normally play toss) and as zerg I hotkey in what I build while it's still in an egg. Personally I would like templar to move just a little faster so they don't get picked off as easy. If you consider the whole remove warpgate mechanic then you have to consider broodwar level of units. Ex: stalker does 10 base damage and 14 to armor without upgrades while a dragoon does 20 flat right off the bat. Storm also did 114 over 4 seconds vs 75 of 4 seconds. Warp prism becomes shuttle too which would need something to rebalance to medivac and overlord (not so much here). If blizzard wants to take the time and redesign all of the units and you people want to bitch about how op toss is when we have actual units instead of relying on aoe I'm all for it.
TL;DR there are trade offs for how storm energy works in different aspects you have to consider. If you take wg away to redesign protoss, protoss is about to be so strong the qq would never end. Take my wg! I want better units!
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On February 14 2013 00:36 WeRRa wrote:
2-3 good storms your bio is dead, 100 good emps and still just shields and energy down.
lol, ever heard of micro?
Anyways, KA would bring back some ability for protoss to come back in a game. Right now there is no way to come back.
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The Problem is that after a big fight both player trade big parts of their normal army and only little is left over to pursue so this means that if you attack further a couple of storm is enough to wittle you down even with micro. So you win a fight but you can't attack regardless since you would just throw away your advantage.
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Instant storm can be used in an abusive manner and I don't think it's the right upgrade with warp ability. Maybe increasing energy regeneration or max energy can be a substitute upgrade?
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Let's not forget the synergy of storms in conjunction with two time warps. Tons and tons of damage.
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It has broken the game in the past and would break it again if reintroduced. Blame the warpgate mechanism. Instant AoE at a whim would be OP by design.
I say this as P btw.
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On February 14 2013 00:34 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done" That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP. Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me. Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
I believe its more or less the fact of the amount of time it takes to get Ghosts to the battlefield rather than the production time between the 2. With KA, you could warp in storms wherever. Imagine how imba storm drops would be if you drop 2 templar and 2 zealots, then warp in 4 more templar and zealots to respond to the incoming army thats being force to walk through chokes to clean up drops. I wouldnt mind having to wait on energy for ghosts if all I could have them at anytime anywhere on the map.
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Now that I think of it: considering how much the warp prism was buffed and how much better people are at utilizing it, warp-in storms would actually be a lot more OP than they were back in the day. Just imagine the amount of destruction someone like Parting could inflict on a terran with that combo, it blows my mind that someone could think it should be reintroduced.
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It would be cool if it worked from an unupgraded gate or atleast gave an energy regen boost. HTs are so expensive, so slow and have such limited versatility that they are really shadowed by the colossus. Hell compared to infestors and ghosts they are the most time expensive in terms of locking down your gateway while not having storm for an additional 45 seconds. A regen buff would be one way to make storms a lot more worthwhile again.
San's warp in storms were cool but bit too punishing. I do think though that warp in storms were party of bliz's antimuta philosophy. I wish they would provide a decent splash any muta option.
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On February 14 2013 00:34 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done" That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP. Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me. Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
Except it isn't the worst logic ever. It was very common for Protoss players back in the day to just warp in HTs and win the battle on the first warp in because there was no more energy to snipe or EMP them. Just storm away until you have a real army again and it was like the terran never had a chance.
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Why not readd the KA upgrade but change it to increase maximum energy, and increase energy regeneration for templars?
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Why not just have a 25 seconds (or whatever number that is balanced) cooldown on storm when HT warps in (and no cd if they come out of gateway). This way, you cant bring spawn your own portable pocket storm with you where ever your army moves but you still get an HT with 3 feedback
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On February 14 2013 04:21 phodacbiet wrote:
Why not just have a 25 seconds (or whatever number that is balanced) cooldown on storm when HT warps in (and no cd if they come out of gateway). This way, you cant bring spawn your own portable pocket storm with you where ever your army moves but you still get an HT with 3 feedback
Now, I play Terran but I'm pretty sure Feedback is 50 energy.
A cooldown could work I suppose but its a bit weird compared to the other abilities and casters.
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On February 14 2013 01:51 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP.
Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me.
Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game. -Kyo- I know you're a pretty good player and all but can you really not see why they were removed and that protoss didn't need anything to replace it? It was broken, not just OP but broken. Also, protoss is already really good (IMO the most powerful race in HOTS ATM) and doesn't need a buff. Bringing amulet back would just break the game again.
Yeah it was completely broken and in todays game it would still be just as broken as it was in beta. It was good to get axed, warpin + instant storm was way to strong. If there wasn't warpin then it wouldn't have needed to be removed, but warpin makes it way way way to strong.
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EPT
