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Hey guys.
I've been watching and reading alot of stuff behind the scenes, did a few searches on this and watched alot of streams, youtube video's and theres one thing that cropped up for both T & Z main 'spellcasters' Ghosts & Infestors and thats their ability to have their energy level increased before they deploy.
I have heard several times from casters and the like that when Toss warps in his High Templar it's always "he hasnt got enough for storms though researched" or you see alot of passive Templars just hovering quite aimlessley.
Obviously the Amulet was removed in patch long ago, but I just wondered would it have a place back in HoTS
Ghost ; Has it's Moebius Reactor instantly giving it +25 on it's production and able to cast EMP pulse, it's AoE attack can pretty much take out a unspread Protoss Deathball clumped.
Infestor : Yes it has had a quite a few nerfs lately but again, it has it's Pathogen Glands again, same as Ghost above gives access to instant Fungal Growth. Yes not the instant cast one now more projectile, but still.
Would the return of Protoss' main spellcasters +25 energy Upgrade break the game? I just wondered what peoples opinions would be, from both bronze to masters and above.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done"
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I think templars are just fine. I don't think bringing back instant storm would do any good for the game really.
It would definitely make drops much less effective and it would make it harder to punish protoss player for losing his/her army.
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I have played since Beta finished and watched since Beta was first recorded and uploaded, I remember the 2 Armour 1 Supply roaches, reapers being good in WoL etc...and 1 base vs 1 base!
I know what you are saying, I knew that would be one of the first comments. But then I think the game has changed alot since patch 1.3 on March '11 but it is a valid point you make which I feel is how my thread will go.
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the difference between those casters is. HTs can be produced right at the front and storm. 5 seconds for you to react and they can come from all sides. Infestors and Ghosts have to run from the nearest production, though Zerg can Nydus, it is far from the extreme that instant storm HTs provided.
they removed it for a reason and it was really hard to play against, while it was pretty easy to pull it off. I think the balance now is more even. Though they could up the radius to 2 again.
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HT with instant storm would give protoss a very strong oppertunity to come back in games, esp. vs Bio play and Muta/Ling. Stormdrops however, are very very hard to deal with and can destroy the midgame.
I would honestly love to see Khaydari amulet back in the game, but I am afraid that it will have to much of an impact. Or it will cost us to much on other aspects of the game.
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The argument has always been that warp-in storms are just too strong. Infestors take time to come out of their eggs and Ghost EMP, although I feel its much stronger than most Terrans argue, can't actually kill.
However a storm can instantly wipe out a drop potentially. And warp in HTs from a Warp Prism can annihilate mineral lines with no setup time.
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IMO remove warp in mechanic and bring back Khaydarin Amulet.
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Good management of your HTs is one of the walls that separetas the amazing protoss players from the good ones...
The number of pros that still lacks in this area is huge.
I'm not one of those "hardcore" guys that call everything too easy and would prefer the SC:BW mechanics back, but removing KA was a really good move from Blizz that added a lot of depth to the game...
also, I think feedback is underused and templars have a bigger role yet to be explored.
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On February 13 2013 23:39 Hoon wrote:
IMO remove warp in mechanic and bring back Khaydarin Amulet.
Not going to happen. Would require a complete redesign and rebalance of all Protoss gateway units. Just readding Khaydarin wouldn't be enough.
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I agree, that ability to warp in such a powerful AoE 'on demand' but it was just the thought that for a good while HT's are 'useless' and no, i know they can use Feedback and also Archon merge BUT until they get to that energy level they arent the most useful of casters for AoE, but granted their Storm is very strong. Maybe even a small energy buff via KA, +15 or +20 per say, a few seconds so no 'instant storm' but more viable instead of build them let them build up for twice any other caster can.
EMP gets rid of sheilds so Toss must withdraw generally and Fungal holds in place for chain. I personally think that despite Storms immediate damage as post above, actually sometimes using them are not harder but require much better concentration. #
Infestors again can burrow and move away, ghosts can cloak too...just to state the obviosu and I apologise.
Obviously these are just my opinions for HT as a avid SC2 watcher but poor player 
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I rate warp gate should still be altered. Maybe have warped in units have shields uncharged and lower energy lower than if produced at a gateway. Then KA would work..
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KA was broken as hell. If they're going to buff storm--and I don't think they need to, Toss at that stage of the game is already plenty strong and has enough AOE--then they shouldn't do it by bringing back the ability to warp in storms. It causes way, way too many problem.
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Ghost build time > time to get 25 energy? If everyone else can pre-emptively build their casters before they need them...
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On February 14 2013 00:14 RoberP wrote:
Ghost build time > time to get 25 energy? If everyone else can pre-emptively build their casters before they need them...
The difference is the other casters have to walk to the scene. The HTs don't have to do that.
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On February 13 2013 23:39 Hoon wrote:
IMO remove warp in mechanic and bring back Khaydarin Amulet.
agree! Warp in is broken. It makes timing attack soooo strong.
KA amulet is okay.. just not combined with "warp in".
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OK then with regards people are stating not allowed to be warped in, albeit a MAJOR change which could well break the game IMO...allow the Templar Archives to produce the Templar instead of Warped from GW/WP, same as infestor and ghost with storm available instantly.
 ucks and covers as SC2 breaks*
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On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done"
That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP.
Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me.
Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
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2-3 good storms your bio is dead, 100 good emps and still just shields and energy down.
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I think - and just my opinion here - the templar has the best "50 energy" spell in the game with feedback, where the units like the ghost and infestor are a lot less useful below 75 energy. Also it needs to be noted that when the templar is "sitting around useless" you can make archons which is great. Ghost do some damage but to be honest when they are out of energy not something you want to have a ton of, and infestors without energy are useless as well.
Because of these factors I don't see it as an imbalance and the right move to not have in the game. Now, if you wanted to give ghosts and infestors different/more useful 50 energy spells and remove the +25 energy from both of those units then I could see that as an option.
Just one of those things that on paper seems like it might be unfair but when you really examine the unit and how it can be used I just feel it balances itself in a way especially since at the least you can warp in a templar and feedback instantly the other player's caster unit that has the +25 energy making the feedback even more powerful. So it almost self balances in that way.
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No it's a horrible design.
Did you read why the upgrade was taken away? People basically warped in HTs when they needed and just casted off the storm and forget about them/morph right into archons.
It's good that we don't have the upgrade, so that terran/zerg can continue the engagement without fearing more HTs were warped and land 2 or 3 storms that completely changes the tide
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The real problem is that you can INSTANTLY warp in High Templars, they other units have a building time, thus wating for them to come out, imagine if you just warped in 3 high templars when you get countered attack, you 3 storms and you defended everything.
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Absolutely not. HTs are fine, in fact with the infestor nerfs I feel they are the strongest and most versatile caster in the game.
Just imagine toss mass air with instant warp-in storms. Fun?
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Not this again. It was absolutely overpowered. Protoss didn't ever need to use any thought process to defend. It was just warp in a Templar, and Storm stuff. Offensively, it was a nightmare too.
It's not coming back.
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I'm not sure about this, I think it does more harm than good.
There were some really nice comebacks possible back then from P which aren't anymore vs bio balls, but it was also very problematic to finish off a protoss even if you were a head by a lot.
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I always thought it should just give a slight starting energy upgrade, not instant storm. However, theyre not too far in a bad place right now. If the medvac upgrade stayed in the game, then Id say the upgrade would be helpful. As it is now, doesnt really need to be in
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Emp isn't an attack, but rather a support spell used to take out energy. Yes it takes out shields vP but other than that they have almost no use in TvT other than long games and vs investors in TvZ, and even then they suck lol.
Fungal is a straight up AoE that now has projectile-espue physics which is pretty much do or die for the unit.
Kydarian Amulet is similar to Glands and Mobieus, but the difference is that Templar can be warped in anywhere on the map. So, if a Protoss is sieging a Terrans 3rd with Templar tech, with the KA, a round of warpins consisting of 6 zealots and 2 High Templars at a forward pylon would be absurd.
Especially considering Storm is an AoE DoT that is better at zoning than the other two spells I mention and storm is less do or die. Also Protoss is already OP enough 
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Amulet back = Protoss reinforcement getting f***ing strong.
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KA was so op, the thing the HTs could use would be either movement speed increase, or foot size increase, so you dont have 8hts getting hit with 1 emp.
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omg plz noooooooooo that would be soo scary everyone has already said what i want say above so please no
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I would agree if its costs 400 400 it would be a real decision to get that.
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HT with the upgrade made for the most OP thing in the game IMO. I remember Socke being one of the best to abuse this.
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the problem is not the amulet but the warp gates, and always will be
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What about a change to KA? Faster energy gain? Or something lower like +10 to starting energy or what have you
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On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done"
I thought this is ironic since terran IS this way with mules/supplydrops/scans
anyways, They KA upgrade could be easily altered like start with 15 more energy so templars wait to storm is shortened yet the instant warp in storm is still not available
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While it would be awesome, there would have to be a nerf to HTs or just storm. I don't think that would be all that fun.
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Khaydarin Amulet is fine.
High Templar are fine.
Warp-in mechanic is a bit meh, but fine.
The three put together however is not.
Instantly being able to dish out an 80 damage AOE as long as you have resources and a pylon is just too strong.
Usually if my Bio army won an engagement, many of the Marines/Marauders were still damaged.
An instant storm on that would kill them despite the fact I just destroyed the Protoss army.
Atleast Zealots and such can be kited and dealt with normally.
Imagine if I was able to drop a Ghost like a MULE anywhere near my main army and instantly EMP or Nuke with it.
I always favored a simple but subtle change:
High Templar do not benefit from Khaydarin Amulet when warped in.
If you use a regular Gateway, they get 75 energy, but if you warp them in, they only get 50.
The upgrade itself could then be reduced to 100/100 to compensate.
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High Templar are fine. This has been discussed 938523598 times. They're already extremely strong.
Every few months somebody decides that they think it's "unfair" that they don't get an energy upgrade. Then we have the great repetition of "it's pretty obvious, it's because they can be warped in and it was broken".
Thread should be locked IMO.
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+15 energy would be nice to get, clumping your templar for a second meanst one EMP is gonna eat your Storms and you will lose your entire army before you get a new one thanks to the insane DPS of bio armies.
+25 would obviously be OP but with +15 energy Terran has 15 seconds from the moment the warpin starts until a storm can be cast to get off an EMP. That would weaken them offensively a ton but means you can still warp in templar and storm at home if you took one EMP..
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On February 13 2013 23:55 awesomoecalypse wrote:
KA was broken as hell.
Not really ... the combination of Warp Gate and KA was. That is a big difference and it is rather Warp Gate which should be "shown the door" than the amulet. Blizzard wont do that, so KA has to stay a thing of the past.
The only way to make a reappearance would be to add it in a way which specifies "This has no effect if the unit is warped in." If you build your HTs from Gateways they would start at 75 energy, but if you warp them in they would only have 50.
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That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP.
Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me.
Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
-Kyo- I know you're a pretty good player and all but can you really not see why they were removed and that protoss didn't need anything to replace it? It was broken, not just OP but broken. Also, protoss is already really good (IMO the most powerful race in HOTS ATM) and doesn't need a buff. Bringing amulet back would just break the game again.
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AS a protoss, that would be super powerful and make PvT a joke since couple HT could melt everything... like EVERYTHING! lol
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Maybe if there was a HUGE change to the warp-in mechanic - or storm. As is, ghosts and inestors take time to build - HT don't.
The bottom line is that if storm can be instantly warped in ANYWHERE (there's a pylon) there would need to be something to offset it.
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On February 14 2013 01:41 rEalGuapo wrote:
+15 energy would be nice to get, clumping your templar for a second meanst one EMP is gonna eat your Storms and you will lose your entire army before you get a new one thanks to the insane DPS of bio armies.
+25 would obviously be OP but with +15 energy Terran has 15 seconds from the moment the warpin starts until a storm can be cast to get off an EMP. That would weaken them offensively a ton but means you can still warp in templar and storm at home if you took one EMP..
Even with only +15 energy you're talking about storm in 15 second. Compare that to ghost (40 seconds) or an infestor (50), you're still talking about getting storm in less than half the time it takes to get emp/fg out... Then factor in possible travel time?
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No no no, they removed khaydarin amulet because of the beyond stupid situation it created. Back when it was basically 2 base all-in vs 2 base all-in, you would crush the protoss army, he would warp in a templar and a sentry at his mains ramp and then you would lose the majority of your army trying to end the game, then because of production time his zealots would be attacking you at your base while your production cycle is only half way through.
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you could have storm anywhere anytime...
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I think the time it takes for a templar to gain energy to storm is equal to the time it takes for the warp gate to cool down. That means in one reverse "production cycle" you get a storm. With the other two races they have to get an upgrade to have emp/fungal after one of their production cycles. The trade off is we have to have our expensive gas units vulnerable before we can cast vs them being in a building or egg where they can be canceled for money back. The argument could also be that the move time to get a caster to desired location is time, so the time to move is a trade for safety of the unit. I personally like being able to warp in templar at each base and just leave them there vs having to find my rally of units and split them up. When I play terran finding units is annoying (because I normally play toss) and as zerg I hotkey in what I build while it's still in an egg. Personally I would like templar to move just a little faster so they don't get picked off as easy. If you consider the whole remove warpgate mechanic then you have to consider broodwar level of units. Ex: stalker does 10 base damage and 14 to armor without upgrades while a dragoon does 20 flat right off the bat. Storm also did 114 over 4 seconds vs 75 of 4 seconds. Warp prism becomes shuttle too which would need something to rebalance to medivac and overlord (not so much here). If blizzard wants to take the time and redesign all of the units and you people want to bitch about how op toss is when we have actual units instead of relying on aoe I'm all for it.
TL;DR there are trade offs for how storm energy works in different aspects you have to consider. If you take wg away to redesign protoss, protoss is about to be so strong the qq would never end. Take my wg! I want better units!
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On February 14 2013 00:36 WeRRa wrote:
2-3 good storms your bio is dead, 100 good emps and still just shields and energy down.
lol, ever heard of micro?
Anyways, KA would bring back some ability for protoss to come back in a game. Right now there is no way to come back.
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The Problem is that after a big fight both player trade big parts of their normal army and only little is left over to pursue so this means that if you attack further a couple of storm is enough to wittle you down even with micro. So you win a fight but you can't attack regardless since you would just throw away your advantage.
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Instant storm can be used in an abusive manner and I don't think it's the right upgrade with warp ability. Maybe increasing energy regeneration or max energy can be a substitute upgrade?
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Let's not forget the synergy of storms in conjunction with two time warps. Tons and tons of damage.
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It has broken the game in the past and would break it again if reintroduced. Blame the warpgate mechanism. Instant AoE at a whim would be OP by design.
I say this as P btw.
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On February 14 2013 00:34 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done" That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP. Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me. Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
I believe its more or less the fact of the amount of time it takes to get Ghosts to the battlefield rather than the production time between the 2. With KA, you could warp in storms wherever. Imagine how imba storm drops would be if you drop 2 templar and 2 zealots, then warp in 4 more templar and zealots to respond to the incoming army thats being force to walk through chokes to clean up drops. I wouldnt mind having to wait on energy for ghosts if all I could have them at anytime anywhere on the map.
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Now that I think of it: considering how much the warp prism was buffed and how much better people are at utilizing it, warp-in storms would actually be a lot more OP than they were back in the day. Just imagine the amount of destruction someone like Parting could inflict on a terran with that combo, it blows my mind that someone could think it should be reintroduced.
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It would be cool if it worked from an unupgraded gate or atleast gave an energy regen boost. HTs are so expensive, so slow and have such limited versatility that they are really shadowed by the colossus. Hell compared to infestors and ghosts they are the most time expensive in terms of locking down your gateway while not having storm for an additional 45 seconds. A regen buff would be one way to make storms a lot more worthwhile again.
San's warp in storms were cool but bit too punishing. I do think though that warp in storms were party of bliz's antimuta philosophy. I wish they would provide a decent splash any muta option.
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On February 14 2013 00:34 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If you ever played back when it existed you would know exactly why it was removed. You could completely rape the protoss army and lose almost nothing and then he warps in 6 templar and kills everything. Or he just warps in a templar and storms your drop and its dead. Khaydarin amulet was awful to play against because it was like "oh I fucked up, better instantly warp in storm and then make an archon after I'm done" That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP. Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me. Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game.
Except it isn't the worst logic ever. It was very common for Protoss players back in the day to just warp in HTs and win the battle on the first warp in because there was no more energy to snipe or EMP them. Just storm away until you have a real army again and it was like the terran never had a chance.
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Why not readd the KA upgrade but change it to increase maximum energy, and increase energy regeneration for templars?
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Why not just have a 25 seconds (or whatever number that is balanced) cooldown on storm when HT warps in (and no cd if they come out of gateway). This way, you cant bring spawn your own portable pocket storm with you where ever your army moves but you still get an HT with 3 feedback
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On February 14 2013 04:21 phodacbiet wrote:
Why not just have a 25 seconds (or whatever number that is balanced) cooldown on storm when HT warps in (and no cd if they come out of gateway). This way, you cant bring spawn your own portable pocket storm with you where ever your army moves but you still get an HT with 3 feedback
Now, I play Terran but I'm pretty sure Feedback is 50 energy.
A cooldown could work I suppose but its a bit weird compared to the other abilities and casters.
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On February 14 2013 01:51 Innovation wrote:Show nested quote +That's about the worst logic ever considering the CD between making templars is still nearly the same production time between ghosts - of which you can make nearly the same amount of and start with EMP.
Your complaint is a person can warp in a unit and storm. If you walk into storms and lose ur whole army while not paying attention is that not the same as saying you should not have been EMPed? The argument sounds quite flimsy to me.
Personally, I have no idea why it was removed other than people complained a bunch and so they got rid of it with no compensation in any way to the protoss army. Edit: the point being, while I don't really agree with it being removed, it's okay if they remove it regardless of their reasons assuming there was some compensation in the form of some other upgrade that allows for faster energy regeneration, or something of the sort, later in the game. -Kyo- I know you're a pretty good player and all but can you really not see why they were removed and that protoss didn't need anything to replace it? It was broken, not just OP but broken. Also, protoss is already really good (IMO the most powerful race in HOTS ATM) and doesn't need a buff. Bringing amulet back would just break the game again.
Yeah it was completely broken and in todays game it would still be just as broken as it was in beta. It was good to get axed, warpin + instant storm was way to strong. If there wasn't warpin then it wouldn't have needed to be removed, but warpin makes it way way way to strong.
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On February 13 2013 23:24 Coriolis wrote:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
quoting this for reiteration
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no. amulet is horrible if the protoss knows how to abuse the warpin mechanic
also protoss is actually already good atm in hots.
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it was blatantly overpowered and thus removed. basically it was like hey I just lost my entire army w click click click 5 storms np still in the game.
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Storm is already incredibly strong and forces the Terran to play much better than the Protoss. It does not need to be buffed.
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If the game was still WoL, it would be too good against Terran in a late game on current maps for two reasons. One, EMP got nerfed a while back. Two, big maps in WoL favor P in PvT.
But we are talking about in HotS. The answer is nobody knows if it would be better or worse with KA. It could be that the metagame dictates every Terran goes tank hellbat, which completely destroys high templar zealot archon. And infestors just got nerfed, so nobody knows how that plays out yet in ZvP.
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EPT
