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Hi -- I'm todeskampf a grand-master Protoss, and although i think the state of PvT is pretty fucked right now this is the build I've felt the safest with. Figured I'd share it with my Protoss brothers.
Build Order:
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
17 pylon
17 cyber
19 Zealot
22 pylon
24 sentry (CB)
26 Nexus
27 Stalker (CB)
31 add on 2 gates
31 2nd gas
31 MSC (CB)
34 Robo
All other chrono-boosts(CB) to be used on probes*
Execution
+ Show Spoiler +The execution to this opening is pretty simple. First of all, there is no point in probe scouting unless its a 4p map. Next use your first 3 pylons to make sure you have entire view of your main, and rally your zealot/sentry to your mineral-line in case of reapers. They will be able to delay long enough for your stalker to pop- don't panic. At 5:45-5:50 when your sentry hits 100 energy it is very important that you hallucinate a phoenix and scout what the terran is throwing at you. Most of the time in hots it is some form of drop play, and this scout will give you adequate time to get into position.
Why this variant of a 1g expand?!
+ Show Spoiler +The reason I particularly favor this build order, is because it seems to be safe against almost anything. MSC will have enough energy to stop bio pushes, the halu scout will let you know if anything gimmicky is coming your way, and versus a standard 1 rax expand you are not behind.
Replay:
+ Show Spoiler +In case you're still feeling skeptical, and/or my description wasn't very clear here is an example of me executing the expand versus NSHgolem. http://drop.sc/304269
About me:
+ Show Spoiler +If you like the post, feel free to follow me on twitter @todeskampf. I will be participating in the ipl6 hots open bracket, keep your eyes open for me ^^
Final thoughts
+ Show Spoiler +Although with this build, you will be in great position to defend anything terran can throw at you- due to medivac boost you are still likely to take damage against hellbat-drops even if you have 3-4 stalkers ready. This can be frustrating, but I have no doubt the game dev's will fix this problem soon enough.
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What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map.
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On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map.
Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described.
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On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills?
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On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills?
Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out.
/Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening.
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On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening.
Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe.
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Would you be able to hold a 2 Barracks all-in with this build? I feel not sending the Probe scout at some point will leave you in the dark and not enough time to react to it until it comes into your main base.
Edit: Also, my exposure to strategy in HotS is pretty limited, so I don't know if the MSC essentially prevents that push from ever being effective. Let me know!
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On February 13 2013 07:20 Mugya wrote:
Would you be able to hold a 2 Barracks all-in with this build? I feel not sending the Probe scout at some point will leave you in the dark and not enough time to react to it until it comes into your main base.
Edit: Also, my exposure to strategy in HotS is pretty limited, so I don't know if the MSC essentially prevents that push from ever being effective. Let me know!
you would be fine! the quick three g's + planetary nexus is more than enough 
On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe.
By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine..
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Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine..
I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler +
its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry.
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On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry.
Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper.
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On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper.
ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!!
If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max.
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On February 13 2013 09:41 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper. ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!! If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max. I thought that relatively perfect micro and decision making was standard for GM? :/
I'm just wondering because it seems like a weakness to me. I don't mean that you should stop doing the opening, just saying that it could have a weakness that I am asking about.
Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything.
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On February 13 2013 10:01 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:41 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
[quote]
Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper. ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!! If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max. I thought that relatively perfect micro and decision making was standard for GM? :/ I'm just wondering because it seems like a weakness to me. I don't mean that you should stop doing the opening, just saying that it could have a weakness that I am asking about. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything.
I can assure you there is nothing perfect about Grandmasters especially low to mid grandmasters, My APM rarely exceeds 150, i dont use building hotkeys for Macro or hotkey screen areas. And i still beat Grandmasters about 30% of the time (#1 master).
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On February 13 2013 11:10 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 10:01 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:41 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:
[quote]With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper. ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!! If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max. I thought that relatively perfect micro and decision making was standard for GM? :/ I'm just wondering because it seems like a weakness to me. I don't mean that you should stop doing the opening, just saying that it could have a weakness that I am asking about. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything. I can assure you there is nothing perfect about Grandmasters especially low to mid grandmasters, My APM rarely exceeds 150, i dont use building hotkeys for Macro or hotkey screen areas. And i still beat Grandmasters about 30% of the time (#1 master).
I said relatively aka much, much better than most mid-masters players. I see your point, though.
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On February 13 2013 11:23 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 11:10 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 13 2013 10:01 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:41 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:
[quote]
Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out.
/Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper. ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!! If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max. I thought that relatively perfect micro and decision making was standard for GM? :/ I'm just wondering because it seems like a weakness to me. I don't mean that you should stop doing the opening, just saying that it could have a weakness that I am asking about. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything. I can assure you there is nothing perfect about Grandmasters especially low to mid grandmasters, My APM rarely exceeds 150, i dont use building hotkeys for Macro or hotkey screen areas. And i still beat Grandmasters about 30% of the time (#1 master). I said relatively aka much, much better than most mid-masters players. I see your point, though.
yeah.. I mean, we see Code S level koreans, and Code A level players lose games to such simple things as micro mistakes.. believe me Grand-master players do not play anywhere near perfectly
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On February 13 2013 12:00 TOdesKaMpF wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 11:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 11:10 Pookie Monster wrote:On February 13 2013 10:01 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:41 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:
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Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper. ok, fine. You win, assuming perfect micro and decision making from the terran he can kill tons of probes!!!! If the possibility of losing 3 probes to a 3 reaper rush, is that big of a concern to you maybe this isn't the opening for you lol. Frankly, most PvT's i've played terran will make 1reaper, 2 reapers max. I thought that relatively perfect micro and decision making was standard for GM? :/ I'm just wondering because it seems like a weakness to me. I don't mean that you should stop doing the opening, just saying that it could have a weakness that I am asking about. Again, I don't mean to be rude or anything. I can assure you there is nothing perfect about Grandmasters especially low to mid grandmasters, My APM rarely exceeds 150, i dont use building hotkeys for Macro or hotkey screen areas. And i still beat Grandmasters about 30% of the time (#1 master). I said relatively aka much, much better than most mid-masters players. I see your point, though. yeah.. I mean, we see Code S level koreans, and Code A level players lose games to such simple things as micro mistakes.. believe me Grand-master players do not play anywhere near perfectly
Yeah.
To clarify on my stance, first I in no way mean to offend you or the build order which apparently sees much success. However it still seems to me that a 3 Reaper rush is still a potential way to exploit your build order of sentry first, despite not being quite as strong as I thought it could be.
I would suppose that if fast Reapers ever caught on people may have to mix up Sentry first and Stalker first. It's almost a shame that Reaper heavy builds are negated by the Mothership Core, stifling Reaper play in TvP.
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Nice build! Lines up very well to pressure, even pre-medivac bio pushes (thanks, planetary nexus). I was beaten badly by a hellbat drop though, did not have enough units. Scary thing is you don't really know the threat level before hallu (which in fact happens quite late, almost at the same time as the robo finishes), but I guess that's an issue with the hellbat drops, not your build.
Oh and I scout after gate, because I'm not brave like a grandmaster ^^
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On February 13 2013 13:27 ant-1 wrote:
Nice build! Lines up very well to pressure, even pre-medivac bio pushes (thanks, planetary nexus). I was beaten badly by a hellbat drop though, did not have enough units. Scary thing is you don't really know the threat level before hallu (which in fact happens quite late, almost at the same time as the robo finishes), but I guess that's an issue with the hellbat drops, not your build.
Oh and I scout after gate, because I'm not brave like a grandmaster ^^
ye halu is rather late but it does at least give you some amount of time to get in position. And as for your low unit count it's to be expected with any variation of a 1g expand, it just feels wrong right now because of how ridiculous strong hellbats are.
Oh, and as a grand-master even I generally die to a hellbat drop. Scout it, get stalkers into position and he boosts over them lol. Most the time i end up pulling all my probes and running to where my third would be but if my reaction time isnt like .5 second to run with my probes when i see the medivac on the edge of the minimap im screwed.
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reaper opening seems pretty bad TvP anyway. Whenever I see a reaper opening I rush them with msc and my second stalker and go straight into stargate. If they don't rush out a widow mine they just seem to die.
So reapers wouldn't be my main concern. My main concern would be playing past 7:30 pvt with the current state of hellbats, mines and medivacs. I guess this looks pretty good for a macro opening.
Although you should fix the title to: A masochists guide PvT... because the safest opening right now is clearly a 1base void ray all-in.
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Honestly it really depends on the map, I've had several instances where the map is quite big like starstation...and basically they can keep you in your base for a LONG time with 3 reapers because stalkers can't kill them even WITH proper micro...unless you catch them off guard and they don't run away right the second they get hit...on maps with large ledges along your main...basically reapers are a huge pain in the ass...
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On February 14 2013 07:59 Cloudshade wrote:
Honestly it really depends on the map, I've had several instances where the map is quite big like starstation...and basically they can keep you in your base for a LONG time with 3 reapers because stalkers can't kill them even WITH proper micro...unless you catch them off guard and they don't run away right the second they get hit...on maps with large ledges along your main...basically reapers are a huge pain in the ass...
Reapers are a giant pain in the ass, but the issue at hand is would you die to a 3 reaper rush opening sentry into stalker, and i can guarantee you you wont.
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When are you getting warp gate and how would you deal with old-school 2/3 rax?
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I am curious about the late mothership core, normally I like to get the core as soon as my nexus starts, so when the nexus is done the core will have energy for photon overcharge, the late core seems to make the protoss reliant on the 3 gate defense, which is a bigger investment than the msc, is it worth it?
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How is this build better than the current builds on ladder where all of the Protoss are skipping their Zealot for their 2nd Gas and going straight into 2 Chrone Boosted Stalkers and a MSC and pushing out immediately?
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On February 13 2013 09:23 Fencar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:11 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 08:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 07:03 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:49 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:43 Fencar wrote:On February 13 2013 06:17 TOdesKaMpF wrote:On February 13 2013 06:11 Fencar wrote:
What do you do if you get hit by a 3 Reaper rush? Assuming perfect execution the third Reaper finishes around 4:05-4:10, hitting at roughly 4:30-4:45 or so depending on the map. Stalker comes out with my build around 5:00, the Zealot and sentry will be able to delay until then as long as they are placed in the mineral line as I described. With the low DPS of the Sentry and high move speed of the Reaper compared to the Zealot, couldn't the Reapers just ignore the Zealot and Sentry while getting a bunch of probe kills? Nope, the low DPS of the reaper would easily allow you to run away the injured probe while your zealot and sentry due dmg to the reaper. Also i really doubt three*** reapers could make it into my main before the stalker is out. /Edit: Even if you lose 1-2 probes, three reapers is a high gas investment and it wouldn't be the end of the world. tbh widow mines, and hell-bats are much more threatening. Well, 3 Reapers two-shot Probes and have 60 HP now, so despite the low DPS per cost (still slightly higher than a marine) they do have okay burst so I doubt you would be able to run away the damaged Probe. By the time three reapers make it to your base the stalker would be out, and you would be fine.. I thought you said that the stalker finishes at 5:00? With 3.75 move speed I'm positive that with finishing around 4:10, the Reapers will be there 10-20 seconds before 5:00 on Cloud Kingdom, considering it takes around 45 seconds for a worker to go cross map. + Show Spoiler + its fine, i just dont think you realize that three reapers in your base for twenty-thirty in game seconds cant do much while being contested by a zealot, and a sentry. Well, assuming rougly 1.3 in-game seconds between Reaper attacks (1.1 seconds is the c/d between attacks, the .2 or so is to account for avoiding Zealot hits) and perfect focus firing from both the sentry and the Reapers, that's three dead Probes before one Reaper has to retreat, then another two before the second Reaper has to retreat since Sentries take 10 seconds to kill one Reaper.
jesus, back the fuck off fencar and stop apologizing for playing terran
idk whats more painful to read, you kissing his ass constantly or you having no idea how much opening 3 reapers sets you behind in both econ and army size compared to normal tvp builds
User was warned for this post
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I'm a bit relieved to see I wasn't the only one to feel this way about current PvT, especially seeing it from a Grandmaster. Those Hellbats and drops. 
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Protoss in HoTS right now feels so strangled...
I had arrived at this same sort of skeleton opener (1gate expo zealot->sentry->expand->stalker->3gate->robo) in my own games as well. Likely the best build in terms of safety vs economy. The issue is that it's the *only* build which is safe yet economic in PvT.
I get the same sort of feeling from PvZ... If I want to be economical and I'm not opening with a Stargate in PvZ I'm just executing an obsolete build. Likewise vs Terran if I want to open economically and I'm not opening with a Robo then I'm just executing an obsolete build. ... In my eyes HoTS was supposed to open doors for all the races to have multiple paths of viability. Just feels like the more choices T and Z obtain, the less options P has to play an economic game. Taking a 2nd/3rd base has never been more difficult.
Is it so much to ask to be able to play Protoss without feeling as if all-in's or turtles are my only two options?
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in pvz you can do 1 gate third base i like it more than stargate but yeah not much other stuff you can do cause how much better zerg midgame units are now. Honestly i think i might start void ray all inning every terran cause the stuff they can do now is absolotely ridiculous. Thank you blizzard for buffing the already stupid mines. Maybe you can double dps of marines next
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Well, don't you think a gatewayscout would be helpful as well? In that case you could go for an earlier forge as well, because you're just able to scout mostly everything or at least if he expands or not. If he doesnt you ofc dont go for the forge, just in case. Reapers are actually never a problem, they are only a possibility to get a more detailed scout.
When i dont see him playing 1rax expand, i cut probes at around 22, build the nexus, add two gates and take my second gas. If he didnt go for an expansion you're safe against a 2rax attack, when you play it correctly. With the first hallucination you can get to know what he is playing, so that you can definitely decide what to do.
Did you try this playstyle as well? If yes, why did you change your style? Because i think chronoboosting probes is much more effective in terms of macro than going for faster units.
I mean.. how do you wanna break an ebay-block in time, so that it doesnt affect your timing? ^^
I am btw Masters in WoL and Diamond in HotS.
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EPT
