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RimJaynor
Canada145 Posts
Saying you scout it at 10. a 15 hatch/15 pool you will most likely lose 1-2 drones which isn't a big deal. Essentially are you forced to just deal with it, and continue on, as a window mine transition will essentially stop a 4-7 roach counter. (in addition you won't have enough time/resources to get burrow). What are possible builds/counter that will work well against this. | ||
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MateShade
Australia736 Posts
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
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MoonCricket
222 Posts
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koOma
Norway462 Posts
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agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On February 18 2013 20:27 koOma wrote: The biggest problem with this build are the reapers imo. They can do so much damage b4 Zerg has anything to deal with it.. Seems way too strong atm, reminds me of early WoL days. are you kidding me? they do 8 dmg per shot :D you can easily get roaches out when he has 3 reapers or just 4 queens. | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
On February 11 2013 21:45 MoonCricket wrote: Your reaction to Proxy Reaper into mass Widow Mine is going to depend strictly on your gas timing, the earlier you started your gas the more agressively you can snap back - I think mass Speedlings off 2 Hatcheries asap gives you a pretty good chance of denying his natural. You can't really get speedlings to deny his natural before Widow Mines so I'd advise against that. Best bet is to try and land a scout on his factory and put up a Roach Warren. In general though, I feel like defensive roaches into a 3rd is your best bet. Going lings against Widow Mines tends to not end well although it's map dependent. | ||
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Elvin
149 Posts
On February 18 2013 20:27 koOma wrote: The biggest problem with this build are the reapers imo. They can do so much damage b4 Zerg has anything to deal with it.. Seems way too strong atm, reminds me of early WoL days. Whoa, Zergs now needs to build something else than slow lings/queens to hold of the pressure? I suggest nerfing reapers to the fucking ground again. | ||
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ShamW0W
160 Posts
On February 18 2013 20:27 koOma wrote: The biggest problem with this build are the reapers imo. They can do so much damage b4 Zerg has anything to deal with it.. Seems way too strong atm, reminds me of early WoL days. Scout for proxies, micro your drones, and you should be able to mitigate any real damage. Scout around 13. If you're actually struggling against reapers you can open pool first as well. Try a 15pool/15gas/16hatch, with a round of speedlings to take back map control. This build actually gets speedlings out in time to do some damage before things like Widow Mines become a problem. Not as economical but you should be able to drone plenty behind it. Edit: Game after I type this I take WAY too much damage from an 11rax reaper harass.  | ||
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phrenzy
United Kingdom478 Posts
You could 15 pool 16 expand and take no damage, but you are making lings with reapers that regen away from the fight. 15h 15/16p is still the way to go i think unless its a 2 rax. | ||
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Vlare
748 Posts
On February 18 2013 21:49 ShamW0W wrote: Scout for proxies, micro your drones, and you should be able to mitigate any real damage. Scout around 13. If you're actually struggling against reapers you can open pool first as well. Try a 15pool/15gas/16hatch, with a round of speedlings to take back map control. This build actually gets speedlings out in time to do some damage before things like Widow Mines become a problem. Not as economical but you should be able to drone plenty behind it. Edit: Game after I type this I take WAY too much damage from an 11rax reaper harass. Agree, proper scouting should deal with this quite well. If you scout it early enough sometimes you can just get BO win to be honest. You just have to get used to checking all the spots now. If it catches you offguard you can simply die though, but the same goes for a good 2rax. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 18 2013 20:27 koOma wrote: The biggest problem with this build are the reapers imo. They can do so much damage b4 Zerg has anything to deal with it.. Seems way too strong atm, reminds me of early WoL days. Invest in a spine crawler per hatchery. They cover a decent radius. If reapers harasses from either side, pull drones to the opposite mining site before queens arrive. I almost always build 1 spine with 4-6 queens as my standard opening unless i scout 3-4 rax reapers, whereby roaches are needed to deal with them. Outside of a heavy reaper commitment 6 queens can more than hold as long as you focus fire the weak ones. Reapers are nowhere near their WoL strength, you're obviously not committing enough. Note that heavy reaper openings puts T at a tech disadvantage, since each reaper is a whopping 50 gas. Preemptive roach warren around 4-5 min is decent, but you're probably better off having more queens, since they provide better map control and are able to accumulate more energy for transfusion and creep tumours (which are critical for mid-late). | ||
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qui
United Kingdom36 Posts
At least in my experience, i've become so accustomed to greedy terrans who try to harass with reapers whilst adding another CC that I open for a baneling bust every game. It honestly works most of the time, reapers and maybe a widow mine are no match for speedlings and a few banes to break open the wall. | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 19 2013 00:58 qui wrote: For all the problems zerg have, reapers are not one of them really. At least in my experience, i've become so accustomed to greedy terrans who try to harass with reapers whilst adding another CC that I open for a baneling bust every game. It honestly works most of the time, reapers and maybe a widow mine are no match for speedlings and a few banes to break open the wall. Yeah i've been finding tremendous success with early 7-9 minute 2 base all ins. Speedling opening is very useful and can almost easily come into effect around 6 minutes where T no longer have any map control. If i see them expo off their 3 rax reaper opening, i know i can kill them off with a baneling all in as long as i check for mines with a small group of lings. Terrans who open reaper into mine are incredibly vulnerable until the 9 minute mark or so, especially with a CC and eng bay/ starport follow up. If only protoss is vulnerable that early on eh | ||
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qui
United Kingdom36 Posts
http://imgur.com/c8gKo5u | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On February 19 2013 01:19 qui wrote: Well, sometimes you can; if they're bad :D http://imgur.com/c8gKo5u This... isn't relevant at all. Anyway, regarding reapers: If they control correctly with proxy rax, I don't think you can actually hold it and win the game. However if they don't you can attack them with drones, while microing away the weak ones and reinforcing. You should be getting gas for speed, and just doing your best to not take too much damage until queens + speedlings come out. Honestly, they should be doing damage. They should be winning the game in the long run. | ||
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Dagan159
United States203 Posts
For T's out there that are also experienceing alot of Z whine... I refer you to... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141732 | ||
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Novacute
Australia313 Posts
On February 19 2013 01:53 InfCereal wrote: This... isn't relevant at all. Anyway, regarding reapers: If they control correctly with proxy rax, I don't think you can actually hold it and win the game. However if they don't you can attack them with drones, while microing away the weak ones and reinforcing. You should be getting gas for speed, and just doing your best to not take too much damage until queens + speedlings come out. Honestly, they should be doing damage. They should be winning the game in the long run. There's an obvious weakness behind proxy rax, a lack of wall in and the T's fighting unit reinforcement point is far away. A simple solution is to build a 6-8 lings, send it to his mineral line. I'm sure at that point, with proper micro, you'll slow his economy down more than he slows yours. Also, if he does wall in, do as much damage as you can to his depots, which should force his reapers to defend or make him bleed alot of resources. As other mentioned earlier, scouting is important. A gas without a rax in his main/natural is an indication of proxy annd you should be prepared. It's that simple. | ||
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Sabre
United Kingdom1086 Posts
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
Meaning you need to get gas ASAP. I once played against a terran that goes two rax with a proxy factory..... I don't think spines alone will work. It makes you too defensive..the widow mines will plop in places where you can't move your units out (like between main and exp) or sit right outside of exp. If you plop one spine per base, the reapers will just attack from the edge (outside of the spine's range). You might think that reaper does little damage but it adds up very quickly, especially if they have 4+ reapers on the field. Plus the fact that they heal themselves. Queens alone are too slow and too weak to do anything against reapers (the reapers will damage the queen a bit..run away..heal...come back again). I wish I had a replay to show this play but i didn't save it. I play as a zerg and this is what I faced before. Still thinking of viable ways to counter. When I see two rax, i will plop an extractor and start getting speedlings or roaches. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
But early proxy rax/reapers can feel like a nightmare when performed well. If you go 15 hatch 15 pool they can have a few reapers in your base before your roaches are out, even before the queens have spawned! If it's executed well sometimes I even lose my natural. But my response to this has been to try to sneak some drones out an expand while defending as best I can, and scout the barracks. It's utterly pivotal to make sure you scout and see exactly when your opponent starts to expand so you know when you can ease up on unit production and get the economy going. Even though the strat feels like a complete nightmare when it happens to you, I end up coming back and winning the game more often than not. Sometime they try to continue harassment but by that point defenses are up. If they try to continue on to a timing push it usually seems like they delayed their push so much that I end up having more units by the time they come. Don't give up or get discouraged. If you survive the harassment you can recover. | ||
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TheSwagger
United States92 Posts
eyeball the amount of workers, harass of this magnitude (depending on how many rax) can be easily identified. The fewer the workers mining minerals (typically) the more all-in it will be (cutting workers for more barracks) I suggest drone scouting (especially if they scout you off the 9depot completion) an early gas can be deceiving, is it banshee play, is it quick tank, etc, I would say if you see an early refinery and only one barracks, stick around as long as you can to find the factory(gas first builds allow for the factory to be made basically immediately after the rax finishes), if no factory, man the anti-cheese guns and sound the alarm. look for the proxy barracks, the sooner you find them and attack them the more pressure they have to lift them (and thus set them behind, a barracks that was invested in, but not being utilized is a dead investment, which is why you'll see some people block the ramp with two barracks and put the third barracks in their base somewhere) Once you've identified its a reaper harass/all in situation, I recommend putting a spine at each hatchery. Just one each, a lot of expand builds afford two at the natural anyways. If this is not your preferred course of action, immediately begin the path of teching for zergling speed. speedlings do great against reapers and limit the harass potential by a shit load. For widow mine: what can really be said here? Dont move the whole group of lings/units mindlessly, this same action costs terran whole armies against banelings. put a couple in front to tank the mines, if you see one, you obviously need to tech to lair immediately, or, drop spores in the base. Some people have suggested sending overlords to your preferred path in other discussions. (they do a great job of eating mines as well) what I'm assuming is happening here, is that the reapers are giving terran a lot of map control and you get defensive and never take it back. Once you get speedlings its your job to take that back by spreading overlords,creep, and getting the watch towers with your excess lings, Best of luck edit- girlfriends computer has autocorrect, just looking for typos, yes I know I didnt get them all | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
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