EPTBeta Balance Update #13 - Page 8
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SoFrOsTy
United States525 Posts
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
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Baum
Germany1010 Posts
On February 08 2013 12:28 Chaser808 wrote: So basically now 1 widow mine counters/ 1 shots all Protoss early game units 1v1, ouch...it's become the anti-Protoss unit! I don't quite understand how that unit has become basically a baneling on steroids. Buffed dmg, hits air and ground, re-usable, free burrow and cheap...I fail to see the drawback? I feel as if the better iteration of it was when it was sacrificed upon attack, especially now that it's gotten a damage buff. Terran don't need more early/mid-game strength vs Protoss with this unit. They're tier1 is GG as is vs Protoss, it's hard on the toss at those stages of the game as is. Everyone will agree that the strength of Terran tier1 is evident by the fact that they can work with those units ALL game. All in all bot sure why Terran need more anti-toss strength in the early/mid game. Terran never had incentive to build a single factory unit in WOL TvP. I think it's a good that they try to change that. The drawback of the mine is that it can be triggered by one unit running into range. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
The mine now is just set and kill, skill involved reduced drastically. They did the same thing with the Hellbat, turning a very interesting unit with consistent usages and drawbacks, into a retarded new roach (prolly the more stupid unit design wise in the game). Wtf is wrong with them. | ||
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Foxyshazam
United States38 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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StaraCroft
Austria292 Posts
It's the same when people here say that blizzard needs to "fix" the swarm host... I don't know if they mean that it's too strong or too weak. I don't think the widow mine change makes it OP, but it does completely shut down oracles, so they're basically saying: we don't want to see oracles in pvt anymore! and that I think is questionable approach. | ||
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mongoose22
174 Posts
On February 08 2013 10:11 Tenks wrote: Does anyone know how the Widow Mine's +shield damage is calculated? Does it pretty much instantly remove the 35 shields and then proceed to do it's damage? Because if it does it's payload and then does 35 shield damage ontop of it the only thing that effects are shots to Carriers and Colossus :/ That would make very little sense for them to do that, if it affected so few units as to only work on Protoss units with more than 125 shields, and it'd be counterintuitive to the new gamer, that the shield damage in most cases would be irrelevant. It has to be shield and then non-shield damage. | ||
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Chaser808
24 Posts
On February 08 2013 12:30 HeeroFX wrote: Late game TvP is so imbalanced that is the phase they should work on give T some kind of help.... While I do agree that Terran can use some help late game pvt, I was mainly talking about early/mid game. While I do mention that Terran use tier 1 all game long, and surely they do, is a testament to how strong those units are even in the early and mid game. Ill say it again, that fact makes me wonder why Terran need more strength early and mid game vs Protoss, their tier 1 is sufficiently strong as is, they don't need an anti-Protoss unit on top of their tier 1 | ||
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Izu
United States1 Post
1) I feel hellbat drops aren't very hard to deal with, but then again I'm opening tank viking every game, so the hellbats never really get a chance to do any major damage. Since hellbats are pretty slow, generally the best strat I find is to just grab all your workers and just run around until the hellbats are cleaned up, but that can be much harder as zerg since early lings get absolutely demolished by hellbats. Thus, I think that perhaps removing hellbat bonus damage vs light would be an effective change, considering that they would then be doing sub 20 damage a shot (I think), thus they would have to get three shots off to kill a worker instead of two. To counter-act this so the unit it still as strong as it was before in the mid and late game, adding the blue flame bonus back onto the hellbat (which frankly would make the blue flame upgrade useful again) would probably be the best course of action, or maybe even just increasing the damage gains from armory upgrades. Personally I have never used this opening once, since I almost always prefer to take an early expansion over early harass, but I can see how it might be a little too strong against zergs. As for protoss, I imagine that stalkers deal with this pretty easily. If further changes are deemed to be needed, blizzard could make it so that the medivac reactor upgrade would have to be researched before the boosters are available. (Wasn't it this way previously? I can't remember.) 2) I feel like the oracle is too much of a coin-flip vs terran. Basically, if the stargate gets scouted, the terran builds two or three turrets and the oracle manages to maybe get a few scv kills and thats it. If the terran doesn't scout it, or is just under-prepared, basically the game is over right there since oracles can do such a ridiculous amount of damage. Perhaps the new damage of the widow mine will help prevent this, since it will one-shot oracles now, but I still think the oracle is flawed in design. Basically, the oracle is a harassment unit that is expensive and incredibly deadly, but does absolutely nothing in the mid or late game, because good players will almost always have anti-air at their expansions and in their base to prevent drops or warp prism harass etc. Since envision is simply an anti-cloak measure, and the other ability of the oracle is pretty much useless, the oracle essentially can't do anything for the rest of the game. Overall I feel that's a pretty boring unit for a spellcaster, so I would like to visit the original idea of oracles casting on minerals. I'm not sure what the reasoning was for removing the mineral shields, perhaps it just wasn't strong enough or couldn't be balanced well enough, but I liked the idea. So why not have the oracle go back to harassing via the minerals, only instead of preventing mining, the oracle essentially drops a photon charge (or something like that) onto the minerals which would detonate after a few seconds, killing any nearby workers. This would definitely make the oracle much stronger in the mid and late game, where players have to keep track of much more than just their initial main and natural, and would also fit in with the blizzard stated goal of being a unit that rewards players with high multitask, in addition to just being much more fun to watch and utilize as a player. Obviously, the drawback is that the oracle is no longer an effective early game harassment unit, but there is a remedy for this as well. Considering that the first ability of the oracle is pretty much useless (does anyone even know what it's called?), I think removing it and and switching time warp off the mothership core and onto the oracle would provide it with another useful spell. This way, the oracle could still be used as a scout/harassment unit in the early game, by slowing down mining, similar to its original design. A 50% slow on a caster like the oracle might be a problem however(particularly in bio PvT), so decreasing the effect to perhaps 20%, and increasing the duration would probably be the best option. 3) I feel that the void ray is an unnecessary unit at this point, and should just be scrapped. In TvT late and mid game it's basically useless, since any decent terran will have scanned ahead and know what the protoss army composition is, and a mix of thors and vikings absolutely demolish void rays, due to the splash damage of thors and the tendency for void rays to clump. Supply wise, I feel that the tempest is a much more effective unit due to its range and health, and is just a better choice overall if a protoss is trying to use air units for support. Maybe tempests do a little too much damage to non-massive, but I don't believe its a major problem. Early game I feel void rays are just a cheesy unit, which protoss already has in the form of the dark templar. I don't know how void rays fare in PvZ and PvP, but it seems the consensus is that the unit is hard to deal with overall. Considering that protoss have the highest unit count out of all the races now, removing the void ray wouldn't be too big of a deal in my eyes, I just feel that the void ray doesn't have a clear role in the protoss army. A quick aside, I would love to see blizzard replace corruptors with scourge, and have mutas morph into broods. Or alternatively, increase the speed of the corruptor, but make it a melee unit that attaches onto other flying units and colossi, and burns the shields/armor away with acid, which I think would make them much more interesting than what they are right now. My apologies for the wall of text, but I wanted to provide some actual thoughts and solutions on the units I feel are the most problematic right now, instead of just yelling imba. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
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-Kyo-
Japan1926 Posts
On February 08 2013 10:12 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Cannot believe these changes are going through. No idea what they're doing haha. I just don't understand why they're circumnavigating every fundamental issue with units and are focusing on the semantics to unit interaction. It's completely backwards. Hopefully they change this soon.. people still under the impression "It's only the beta". What they seem to be overlooking is the fact that the game releases in ~month and these balance issues will still be there. >.< | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote: It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is? is EMP a new ability to you too? | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On February 08 2013 13:30 Bayyne wrote: It seems like a poorly designed unit when you're attempting to make it more effective against a whole entire race. It's also funny to see "+25 bonus vs shields": I wonder which race that is? So spore crawlers are also a poorly designed AA building since it is going to have +15 vs biologic. That is only one race as well. I think most people would agree it's always good to have some units like that, it lets you tune balance for a specific matchup instead of the WoL situation where any change has an effect on three matchups. | ||
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VashtaNerada
United States12 Posts
I feel that people who say this are people who just want to turtle until they are maxxed out on tempests and high templar so that they have an army composition that is actually impossible to engage. I joke... mostly. It's a difficult composition to deal with but something will come up. In the meantime, something I find interesting is the number of tech options being moved to hatchery level. In early WoL, standard zerg play was getting gas before pool in virtually every matchup for speedlings. As time went on, that gas timing got delayed more and more - first it was hatch before pool versus Terran, then it was 14/16 against FFE, then it was 4-6 queens vs. T and 3rd base before gas vs. P... every iteration saw zerg taking gas later and later. The latest round of changes seem to be a ... gentle encouragement, let's say, for zerg players to play a bit differently. Where before there were 4 upgrades available before lair (speed + 3 evo upgrades) there are now 6... or if we take the evo upgrades out of the picture, we have 1 becoming 3. That's actually pretty significant; I can spend 300 gas on upgrades before I even start my lair now. Should I take the earlier gas and the later third hatch? I think perhaps there's still a key piece missing from the equation - the ability to hit air units on hatch tech with an offensive unit. I'm all for playing around with faster gas now, though. I hope it opens some possibilities up. | ||
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Bayyne
United States1967 Posts
What do you mean? EMP doesn't have a pronounced bonus effect versus anything, let alone an entire race. | ||
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ETisME
12476 Posts
On February 08 2013 11:00 GhandiEAGLE wrote: I don't get all of the hate, it isn't that bad. I like the carapace option being expanded in particular you need 100/100 early on. why would you spent on that just for scouting? it would come too way to scout for strong early rush and you have a much weaker defense against it because while you are getting gas, you are losing out on mineral income and thus less spines and queens can be made. the worst part of the patch is that everyone had been saying it's not a patch that's needed. There are something more concerning to be looked at yet blizzard just go ahead anyway | ||
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Trilandian
Israel78 Posts
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