|
On February 08 2013 14:00 nomyx wrote:
I think HOTS beta is a lot more balanced than the wings beta ever was. 1 supply 2 armor roaches, 40 second warp gate research? We've came a long ways
We just need a hellbat nerf and possibly a hydra buff (I'm a big fan of giving them the range upgrade as default) and I think we're in good shape.
that's because one was a brand new game and one is an expansion that adds a few units,
It would be crazy if it wasn't more balanced that wol beta..
|
Is there anyway to test these units without having to play an unranked game.. Is there any way I can find a unit tester ?
|
Really disappointed about the mine buff. The general concept of a unit that only needs to fire once to be cost efficient is something that boggles my mind. It does one-shot stuff like stalkers and oracles now which is bonkers if you think about it. As a unit it is too cost efficient and comes way too early in the game. You can have mines out a good minute before a protoss can have his detection and their only mobile detection is prone to being sniped by a few vikings and a scan.
The problem might not be as present in 1vs1 as it is in 2vs2 games where the widowmine completely breakes some matchups and makes it almost impossible to punish terrans for their greedy play. Make a runby while he is moving out with his mech army? Nope. Maybe some air harass with an oracle, phoenix or mutas? Nope. They were already strong enough - or too strong in team matches. People complained about fungal being a spell that can literally end the game if one player wasn't paying attention for a split second. It's the exact same thing with the widowmine.
Disappointing that there is no nerf to either hellbat or the medivac booster which is a combination that simply is too powerful in its current state.
Glad that they didn't went for the tempest nerf. 9 DPS is already terrible for a 300/200 cost unit. When it comes to DPS per supply it is even worse than workers. Other 300/200 units deal around 40-50 dps, sometimes even as splash damage.
Besides, tempests need a decent support of voidrays to be really effective and those already took a supply nerf in the last patch.
Overlord speed... No idea why anyone would get that besides some very weird and funky strategies that wouldn't work in almost all cases.
Overall I have no idea what this patch was supposed to do. It fixed nothing and received mostly negative critics from their beta testers. Glad to hear that they really don't give a fuck. There's hoping though that the patch at least gets rid of some of the nasty exploits, bugs and performance issues.
|
On February 08 2013 15:04 BBQSAC wrote:
I have only skimmed a few pages so forgive me if this has been mentioned already but I really like the overlord change and it is probably the best part of this patch.
My reasoning being that it helps early aggression vs T massively. You can now get overlords to the front of the Terran's base far more effectively which you can then sac in to tank the first volley from the window mines that would otherwise allow an incredibly greedy but also relatively safe opening.
Having all your initial ovies floating across the map is a pretty big tell that ling pressure is coming vs a mine opener.
The associated buff to scouting and expo denial with creep is nice but shouldn't be too significant as if you weren't intending to use them for a bust fast ovies aren't worth the early investment. It doesn't speed up drop tech either as you still need lair for ventral sacs and it is the much longer researching upgrade to boot.
The rest of the changes seem fairly meh. We all knew that fungal was gonna keep getting reamed so who cares? The spore buff is also obviously necessary in light the festy nerf.
No...that's unarguably wrong. If you're going to be aggressive you need units. And you need them fast. They are costly. If you think you can afford the upgrade you just don't realize what you could make instead, or how much earlier you could attack. The burrow upgrade might be useful in this situation because it makes your army a bit stronger (and even that one might be useless). But the OV speed upgrade... no way.
|
United States7166 Posts
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terran had the most new stuff, kinda jealous.Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility.
It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Every game has the early game, but you won't always be able to access stuff like vipers/ultras. Oh right and protosses get mother ship core. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers isn't early, both hydra upgrades take a long time to get, and mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to the other stuff I mentioned.
Also about sky toss
You realize that their entire protoss expansion is new/improved air units right.. Mship core, oracle, void ray, phoenix, carrier, tempest. They're so reluctant to give a buff to antiair now, would not be a good way to promote Protoss in HotS. Heh they say that it's new, just wait and see with regards to the skytoss issue.. as if it's not obvious with how problematic vr/colo was until infestor was discovered as the only solution, fast forward to now where infestor has been repeatedly nerfed, air significantly buffed, all antiair unchanged except for a irrelevant speed boost on a unit that still melts to colo without any way to micro/position against that. And preventing skytoss from happening only harder than ever cus of mship core. Viper has some potential but is pure support,still need an adequate fighting unit.
Tbh I was hoping with the expansion being zerg centered, they'd be forced to come up with cool zerg concepts that mb could be added to competitive play, but alas no , it was the opposite and terrans got the most.. Reaper, tank, Thor, medivac, BC, raven all get new abilities/improvements..
Instead we keep getting several nerfs to the unit that was the cornerstone to defending the previously problematic vr/colo combo, which is now much more powerful than ever as are other similar air-centric deathballs. And we got an inadequate improvement, which requires yet another upgrade, on one of the crappiest units, yet fundamental in terms of the role they should have played, our ground anti air unit, the only mobile one we've ever had while the other races each have 3 now, not counting ghosts. We get cool buffs to 2 units at least, but nothing to both corruptor/overseer which they explicitly mentioned they wanted to improve/rework in previous interviews. Zerg's always had the least types of units in sc2, and the least inspiration. Kinda makes me sad to see that continued in Heart of the Swarm... an ironic title.
|
On February 08 2013 15:04 Ironsights wrote:
ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks.
The most straightforward result would be, the missile takes 35 shields off first, then does 125 damage after that. So, for an Immortal with more than 35 shields, it'd take 35 shield damage, then the Hardened Shields effect would kick in and it'd take 10 damage after that, for a total of 45 effective damage. For Immortals with 35 shields or less, the missile's shield bonus would wipe away the Immortal's remaining shields, and then the Immortal would take the 125 damage to HP, for a total of 125-160 effective damage, depending on remaining shields.
|
well if you upgrade overlord speed like when your lair is morphing, you could create some creep paths on the map right when your lair finishes. Would help with certain rushes and such, i think zergs are jumping the gun and saying its useless before trying stuff out with it first.
|
|
|
On February 08 2013 10:07 Ksi wrote:
The fact that Blizzard is now resorting to giving bonus damage vs very, very specific unit types seems like a step in the wrong direction for how they should approach balance. It seems a little too conservative in one sense (making mild damage buffs vs. specific targets rather than reworking the units as a whole), but also a bit too complicated in another sense. I'd really hate to see us 5 patches down the line with every unit having a bunch of extremely specific +damage modifiers.
Indeed. I too am disappointed to see that they have resorted to specialise certain units against other very specific units just to achieve balance.
Gone are the days when there were just attack types, shared amongst all races. It achieved such a marvelous state of balance that the word "hard' counter rarely existed. It was wholly upon the player's ability to bring his control group of units to victory, rather than relying on a very specific unit to deal with another specific unit.
This is no longer the Starcraft I knew.
|
On February 08 2013 15:31 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 15:04 Ironsights wrote:
ok...dumb question maybe, but having read all 9 pages I couldn't find the answer and I don't have a beta to test this:
How does the widow mine effect Immortals? If the unstable payload is effected by hardened shields, then does the new damage change the total dealt?
Basically, I am wondering about the relationship of immortals to widow miens...if the mines CAN successfully defend tanks from immortals, I feel that mech would be much closer to viable...
anyoen clue me in? Please and thanks. The most straightforward result would be, the missile takes 35 shields off first, then does 125 damage after that. So, for an Immortal with more than 35 shields, it'd take 35 shield damage, then the Hardened Shields effect would kick in and it'd take 10 damage after that, for a total of 45 effective damage. For Immortals with 35 shields or less, the missile's shield bonus would wipe away the Immortal's remaining shields, and then the Immortal would take the 125 damage to HP, for a total of 125-160 effective damage, depending on remaining shields.
That is actually not correct. The widow mine bypass the immortal's shields.
|
On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers.
I don't think that's entirely true. We get 2 early Lair units (Swarm Hosts and Hydras) that I think will turn out to be decently strong. And the late game composition is easier to tech to as well (and cheaper). The way I see it, we can't get the same economy in HotS compare to WoL, but we also don't need it as much.
|
I think the widow mine change is actually really good, it makes mech somewhat more viable against archons, zealots, and immortals (does it take 35 off the hardened sheild...!?!?)
The other changes are good too, for once I think they moved in the right direction (not a big enough step though if you ask me)
|
I believe it is time for the upgrade cost of several Overlord enhancements to be reduced. It would be too high of an investment that early on in the game to attain both Overlord Speed and Burrow or Ventral Sacs for an early overlord drop tactic or a strange build with scouting overlord + burrow roach.
So long as the cost isn't reduced, the risk of opting for these enhancements would outweigh the benefits.
|
On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers.
While I completely agree that I get the same feeling, and I hope to get something for our early game too. Even if it's something minor, just for our combat capabilities. The things that have gave our early game seem... strange... that they would choose burrow and overlord speed. Especially since sacrificing lair or queens early enough to make real usage of that is a big sacrifice.
But I also feel slightly disappointed that basically every upgrade we got to our race was reminiscent of something that was lost in transition from BW to SC2. Hydra speed, strong Ultralisks, blinding cloud, a burrowed siege unit... all things players felt we should have had in original SC2. As a faithful Zerg player since SC1, none of this feels "new"... just feels like things that were missing all along.
I would be 100% happy if they just tweaked Hydras upgrades a bit. I don't think Hydras need to be "stronger", but requiring 2 upgrades to their functionality for them to be useful is more than any other unit in the game. Other units with 2 upgrades typically have 1 for functionality (marines stim, roach speed) and then the 2nd upgrade is a stat increase or quality of life increase. As it stands, Hydra literally don't work off creep vs the majority of units without both upgrades...
Don't get me wrong, I'm happier now than I was in WoL because I feel we got things that were missing. But now all that's missing is our early game is a shadow of our BW selves, on top of the fact that we have more vulnerabilities early-mid game with AA/detection/economy/etc.
On February 08 2013 15:49 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 15:24 Zelniq wrote:
I'm getting this weird vibe, like deja vu from early WoL where zerg had the least new units and terrain had the most new stuff. Like all zergs new unit / modified units are all midgame units, their early game is nearly identical to WoL. Whereas it's common to see widow mine openings into hellbats with new rocket man medivacs and install siege mode tanks, immune to early timings. I'm happy for terrans to get new stuff, just feel like zerg is kinda getting shorthanded here. Burrow/speed overlords being possible earlier is something, but not quite the same and not as satisfying or versatile, with more niche uses. And they're kinda costly for early game, for limited utility. It'd be nice if they threw us a bone, anything, in the early game for our units. Oh and protosses get mother ship core.. and oracles are borderline quick. Infestor pit + expensive unit that's worthless in small numbers doesn't quite cut it, and hydra upgrades take a long time to get, as well as mutas are also a bit on the later side compared to say hell bats/oracles/medivacs, and obviously the mship core/widow mines/reapers. I don't think that's entirely true. We get 2 early Lair units (Swarm Hosts and Hydras) that I think will turn out to be decently strong. And the late game composition is easier to tech to as well (and cheaper). The way I see it, we can't get the same economy in HotS compare to WoL, but we also don't need it as much.
If you tech to use either of the two units you listed, it's not easier nor cheaper to tech to late game. Even without those units, it's not really cheaper and easier to tech to late game. How do you figure?
|
I do not understand why hellbats have not been nerfed. Hellbat drops are just ridiculous and make early game tvt just silly.
|
On February 08 2013 16:04 rQdjay wrote:
I do not understand why hellbats have not been nerfed. Hellbat drops are just ridiculous and make early game tvt just silly.
Yeah. They nerfed BF hellions due to TvT back in 2011. Now, they add a steroid version of it at a similar timing... It seems like instead of try to fix T3 terran, they are giving terran more pressure options. The only problem I see is that it is very hard to balance. Either we have the terran harass being OP'ed and terrans dominate (mid/late 2011) or other races get buffs so the harass no longer works and terran are just no as good in the late game (TvZ late 2012).
|
Random changes..
I can't help but feel that these changes don't adress any of the issues in a good way.
I don't think zergs will stick on hatch tech for that long anyways...
Oh well here's me hoping it at least changes this 3base turtle bullshit <3
|
We are ending up with roach-hellion and mini nuke mines just so Blizzard doesn't have to buff Siege Tanks. You have to give it to them though, in spite of overwhelming criticism they are sticking to their guns. My problem with this design is that forcing Tanks to always ALWAYS have a lot of shit around them just to function, promotes death ball play.
|
Maybe this is intentional (i'm assuming you can speed up also) so you don't have to regame when you have the wrong game speed? Idk would be kind of confusing anyway if it was used during a game.
|
do you guys notice that oracle is a one-shot now for widow mines?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
