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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
It think he meant that this way of balancing is lazy and far from thoughtfull, especially when there is already a system in place they can use ( type of armor ).
I agree with him, it feels like a quick and dirty way to do the job. It just show they don't want to think about it seriously or even worse... + Show Spoiler +that they failed to find a more elegant and proper solution
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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
Why is it a problem? Well according to you anything memorable is fine so I'm not sure what wouldn't be fine according to your golden rule. Maybe we should have flying elephants in the game because why would that be a problem? Why? You can memorize it and you can always play a different game so why would it be a problem?
And I can still play a different game and that's what I might do. Why would I play a game I have a problem with? Besides who the fuck are you to tell me what I want to play? The nerve of some people here.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
Initially, I had the same reaction. I think I was only worried because I imagined: what if this starts boiling down to memorizing a bunch more rocks, paper and scissors. But it occurred to me that "damage vs. shields" isn't any less reasonable than "damage vs. armor". It really seems like something most explosives would do!
On that note, damage vs. biological is nothing new, but it would be nice if zerg acid would make up its mind on how it affects things.
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In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history.
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On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history.
It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
EDIT: Nevermind it seems it is and I completely missed it downloading.
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On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
By the time LotV comes around, every single attack in the game will do different damage to every unit in the game. Given enough time, people will still be able to memorize that. But is that really where people want balance to be headed?
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I can't wait to be able to see what my oponent is doing for 60 seconds! xD
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On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take.
The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented.
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On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented.
Mr ghost wants a word with you.
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Again
+xx vs. shield is not bonus again an armored type.
Protoss life will not take the +35 bonus damage, but only 125 damage. Only the shield take +35 damage.
It's like the baneling's bonus damage to "Buildings"
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On February 09 2013 06:09 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues. Why is it a problem? Well according to you anything memorable is fine so I'm not sure what wouldn't be fine according to your golden rule. Maybe we should have flying elephants in the game because why would that be a problem? Why? You can memorize it and you can always play a different game so why would it be a problem? And I can still play a different game and that's what I might do. Why would I play a game I have a problem with? Besides who the fuck are you to tell me what I want to play? The nerve of some people here.
I did not tell you what you have to do and btw who are you to talk to me like that?
Maybe i was not clear enough. To add 1 or 2 spells/attacks per race, which are just vs a certain race won´t hurt the game. Sure if it gets too much its stupid.
saying that i am still disappointed, that blizzard is not able to patch the main problems. I can´t believe they still don´t see it. These "smaller" changes can be done later...
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On February 09 2013 04:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:33 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum. What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain. Yes, and AVILO has access for reasons beyond my understanding.
Just goes to show what Avilo says about how incompetent Blizzard is.
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On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented.
How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique.
The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
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Good stuff.. they are moving in the right direction.
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On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35...
Um....
Uh....
???????????????????????????????????????????
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On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix.
There is a difference between bonus damage vs. shields and bonus damage vs. Protoss. While only Protoss units can have shields (which can still change. Defensive Matrix in SC1 effectively gave individual Terran units shields), not all Protoss units always have shields. The extra damage won't affect a Protoss unit that has run out of shields, for example. Whereas a damage bonus vs Protoss will always affect any Protoss unit, no matter what.
Personally, I think this "breaks the foundation of the game" stuff is hyperbolic nonsense. Now, I don't think that it's good to resort to damage bonuses that are highly specific to a race (though ultimately, I don't find it to be so different compared to spells that are highly specific to a race, so long as the unit itself is not race-specific). But there's a difference between "not good" and "utterly unacceptable."
And I find your slippery slope argument to be similarly hyperbolic. Having a bonus vs. shields doesn't mean that they'd start modifying research times or damage bonuses vs. specific units. By that logic, giving a flexible damage bonus at all (rather than SC1's global "all concussive does 25% vs small" style) inevitably leads to units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units.
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On February 09 2013 07:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35... Um.... Uh.... ???????????????????????????????????????????
EMP is a unit ability and not a unit attack. EMP only deals damage to shields and not to the armor. EMP deals no damage at all to zerg or terran. EMP removes only energy and shields which are both "energy" in essence and are both rechargeable. EMP is not a unit damaging attack again.
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On February 09 2013 08:03 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. EMP deals 100 damage to shields.... this does 35... Um.... Uh.... ??????????????????????????????????????????? EMP is a unit ability and not a unit attack. EMP only deals damage to shields and not to the armor. EMP deals no damage at all to zerg or terran. EMP removes only energy and shields which are both "energy" in essence and are both rechargeable. EMP is not a unit damaging attack again.
They both only deal damage to shields.... That's it.
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On February 09 2013 08:02 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 07:48 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:43 MstrJinbo wrote:On February 09 2013 06:29 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 06:17 awesomoecalypse wrote:
In BW, shields took full damage from every attack, regardless of unit type, meaning that shields would take a lot more damage in many cases from attacks than health would--their interaction with enemy attacks was therefore significantly more complicated than it was in WoL, where shields in terms of damage taken are no different from other health apart from a different armor rating. Bonus damage vs shields may be a change from WoL, but its not unprecedented in SC history. It is still unprecedented. It is completely different actually since shields took that "extra damage" from all other units. There was no units with a bonus attack vs shields and others without, it was all units had "bonus attacks vs shields" which is significantly different as the latter mechanic doesn't matter much because the amount of shield a unit has is balanced around the damage it will take. The baneling does a weird amount of damage to buildings. Seems like some odd tweak to the armor type thing to make it possible for zergs to baneling bust Protoss and terrans. I don't see how a tweak to the damage of the widow mine to one shots gateway units but not queens is unprecedented. How can you not see it? It's very simple, a unit damaging attack is doing more damage to one race and not the other. It completely breaks the basic foundation of the game. There is a reason that such changes, that can "easily" fix a lot of three way balance problems were avoided; up until now when the developers became so desperate before the launch date that they actually resorted to this technique. The spore + damage vs biological is not much better since zerg is the only race with bio fliers. Next thing we might have is void rays doing less damage to shields, you know because they might be a problem in PvP. After that maybe Blink research time will be different depending on whom you're playing against, gonna be longer vs terran and shorter vs Zerg. Here is balance getting fixed the easy way. When developers use these techniques it only means they are avoiding bigger problems that they need to fix. There is a difference between bonus damage vs. shields and bonus damage vs. Protoss. While only Protoss units can have shields (which can still change. Defensive Matrix in SC1 effectively gave individual Terran units shields), not all Protoss units always have shields. The extra damage won't affect a Protoss unit that has run out of shields, for example. Whereas a damage bonus vs Protoss will always affect any Protoss unit, no matter what. Personally, I think this "breaks the foundation of the game" stuff is hyperbolic nonsense. Now, I don't think that it's good to resort to damage bonuses that are highly specific to a race (though ultimately, I don't find it to be so different compared to spells that are highly specific to a race, so long as the unit itself is not race-specific). But there's a difference between "not good" and "utterly unacceptable." And I find your slippery slope argument to be similarly hyperbolic. Having a bonus vs. shields doesn't mean that they'd start modifying research times or damage bonuses vs. specific units. By that logic, giving a flexible damage bonus at all (rather than SC1's global "all concussive does 25% vs small" style) inevitably leads to units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units.
The thing is we DO have units with individual damage bonuses against other specific units. All the +bonus vs light, armored, massive, psionic, biological is actually that. However this is now a new ground with +damage vs race which for me is way over the line.
EDIT: Just a couple of final words. With all the bonus vs unit type and then vs race (because unit type was not enough) and maybe later research time modification vs each race (which indeed might be a slippery slope argument) at the end of the day, there is one thing that is true regardless: There must to be a line somewhere. For me Blizzard is way over the line with the spore and mine changes.
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EPT
