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On February 09 2013 10:35 BobbEr wrote:
You know, this "+ shields" thing is absolutely terrible. And I'm sure blizz will fix that. Yeah, u may compare this with EMP, but (!) EMP has unique beautiful design, that just "drains energy". It is logical, simple and sci-fi based thing. Here we see completely different story: There is a balance hole. They need to fix it, and just abuse all the logic and game philosophy. Why should WM deal more damage against shields? That's weird and stupid.
That's kind of balance fix, that spoils all the story. Better lack in raw linear balance sometimes, but gain better logic in such an epic game.The same way I feel about siege upgrade, it's sweet buff, but terrible step back in terms of uniqueness.
Yeah, it's kind of impossible to disagree with this.
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Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit).
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On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes.
Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
Why is there no terran equivalent?
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
Tempest HT + X against Terran is also extremely strong. Have a couple of tempest chip away at the Terran units/buildings and bait him into his death. Haven't found a way to beat it yet.
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On February 09 2013 12:09 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord. Why is there no terran equivalent?
Because Terran has no long range air to ground unit and the casters aren't nearly as powerful .
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On February 09 2013 11:47 wcLLg wrote:
Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit).
Banshee, vikings, and pheonix are all light air units as well.
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On February 08 2013 17:48 Avicularia wrote:
The only good change is that of the widow mine.
Zerg cahnges are lame, and ovi speed makes no sense. For oracle, 60 sec is too long.
I guess we'll see one or two more patches before the end of the beta.
So I guess it's time to take care of helbats and zerg aa next patch.
From what I'm reading, I'm guessing it is to enhance Zerg intel to either:
1. Do build order counters
2. Defense against early antiaircraft openers (Viking/phoniex)
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On February 09 2013 12:55 Donger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 11:47 wcLLg wrote:
Thors vs light dmg could also be called vs mutas (not a specific race, a specific unit). Banshee, vikings, and pheonix are all light air units as well.
Vikings are armored...
Not to be a dick or anything, but I don't want a rumor to spread that Vikings take less than 50 damage from an immortal.
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On February 09 2013 12:57 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 17:48 Avicularia wrote:
The only good change is that of the widow mine.
Zerg cahnges are lame, and ovi speed makes no sense. For oracle, 60 sec is too long.
I guess we'll see one or two more patches before the end of the beta.
So I guess it's time to take care of helbats and zerg aa next patch. From what I'm reading, I'm guessing it is to enhance Zerg intel to either: 1. Do build order counters 2. Defense against early antiaircraft openers (Viking/phoniex)
I thought it was to allow them to run away from momma cores easier?
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On February 08 2013 21:38 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast... What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that. If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do. Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play.
Because you said hellbat drop is GUARANTEED to do damage, directly calling them imba.
Four range 2 units moving at 2.25 speed and conical dps of 15 vs light backed by a medivac with 70mp is imba... Are you trolling?
A queen (which you should already have) and four roaches can do same effin' thing!!!
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So fucking sick of ppl saying bullshit when they really don't know what they're talking about. If you aren't GM or if you haven't win any tournament then just STFU. I've already seen 2 pros using the first 100 or 200 gas on speed overlord in the beginning. If ppl still think it's not necessary, then please, try playing zerg and see for yourself if you need it or not.
It's kind of silly really.
I know I'd trade the overlord speed on WOL instead of speedlings anyday. Be it ZvZ, ZvT, hell even ZvP since i've the most trouble figuring out all their allins.
You know what's worse ? That we would be able to finally survive the early-mid game in ZvP and then blizzard would see that's there something wrong with the Broodfestors that ensues.
It's my only own opinion, but if Blizzard think ZvP is balanced, that's because they're watching the matchup as a whole and not at the specifics times. If we made it through, then blizzard would simply nerf the Broodfestors and we would have got a balanced game. But of course, keep in mind, it's my own opinion.
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On February 09 2013 13:15 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 21:38 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 21:19 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:59 Alpina wrote:On February 08 2013 20:51 Dvriel wrote:On February 08 2013 20:25 Henk wrote:On February 08 2013 20:23 loft wrote:On February 08 2013 19:06 FoXeRpl wrote:
Not every Terran is going to do hellbat drops.Any decent Zerg will got overlords spreaded and 3-5 Queens.Add spore to shoot at medivacs and when you will see the drop coming maybe could snipe the medivac with queens.They can even heal each other.Building 5 Roaches without even focus fire or microing(I tested this in the Unit tester and this is the amount you need to kill hellbat drop) you got this drop covered and ofc can kill the hellions if they are denying your creep and be prepared for hellion/BFH drops,so you got nothing to lose.
Lets think about the tech and the risk Terran take to do this drop:
RAx,Factory,Starport,Armory
500 minerals 100 gas 10 supply
Pool,Roach Warren....
375 minerlas 125 gas 10 supply
As we can see the cost is almost the same and on even supply,but the tech is much higher and expensive.The potential damage of the drop is great,but as well pretty risky,so no big deal and you Zerg got lot of tools to scout it,just learn to stop it. So, for a couple of minerals T gets a devastating mobile force compared to Z having some roaches? (Also, your counter includes queens/spores which you didn't include. Z pays a higher price to fend off attack) Not to mention terran will need that infrastructure anyway. Zergs don't need RW, and he's forgetting that hellbats only cost minerals while roaches cost gas. Sure,we need that infrastructure but NOT SO EARLY!!! Armory is Mid game structure,not early,ok? Terran goes for huge investment to do damage and if it fails its a great risk. I suppose Medivacs are free gas units,right? 5 roaches=125 gas vs. 1 Medivac=100 gas. LOL Zerg will be soo far behind...Once again 150 minerals for Armory is the same as 150 min for RW,so I see it pretty fair. First of all hellbat drop is pretty much guaranteed to do damage. And if it does not do any damage, that means zerg made like 3 spines per base + roaches which is again a big hit to economy. Now armory, medivacs and hellbats are useful all throughout the game, it's not like it's a dark shrine or cloaked banshees where you are trying to catch opponent off guard. 3 spines per base to defend this??? Are you alking about Bronze league maybe??? You dont need a single spine.Maybe a Spore if you want to be sure to kill the MEdivac and dont forget: the Hellbat drop comes of 1 base play.You can pull drones and save them or spreading while the 5 roaches kill every single Hellbat.You got creep as well and they are quick enough. Dark shrine is not usefull throughout the game? NEither banshees? MVP goes mech vs Z and use 5-6 banshees to deny expansions,snipe infestors and forcing fungals. DTs are great harass tool and force scans,give you map control and kill workers so fast... What are you trying to prove here? I know hellbat drops are very hard to defend, I've seen many pro players losing so much stuff to that. If all zerg got is 5 roaches then you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. He pulls drones, and you just catch them with speed medivac and drop on them. That's how you do. Oh and hellbats drops come from any amount of base play. Because you said hellbat drop is GUARANTEED to do damage, directly calling them imba. Four range 2 units moving at 2.25 speed and conical dps of 15 vs light backed by a medivac with 70mp is imba... Are you trolling? A queen (which you should already have) and four roaches can do same effin' thing!!!
Forcing you to pull drones is doing damage in itself. Not to mention he can outmicro your 4 roaches and a queen. You can't really do shit. You're going to right click the queen onto the medivac and then all 4 battlehellions are going to melt it and then run away. He'll come back 2 minutes later and kill your mineral line.
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So Terran is gonna kill us even harder? Are we seriously not going to do anything about battle hellions only costing 100 minerals and having insane melee dps? Cuz you don't have to be a genius to realize how op it is compared to similar tier units
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These specific damage attack +++ etc changes are just silly. I really hope this doesnt stay in.
Im all for ignoring the 'lets not make things too complicated' thing when it comes to simplifying the game, but this really does make units too complicated, in the wrong way.
It should be unit to unit relationships that are dynamically complicated, not the numbers on their stat sheets.
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They also need to realize that medivacs healing hellbats is quite possibly the dumbest shit they've ever implemented in a game. Oh it transformed into a cone aoe instead of straight line, now it's bio. There's no logic or reasoning other than they want factories used with bio as well. You might as well have Medivacs heal thors too. I'd rather them come back with the 15hp/s upgrade and remove healing from hellbats than keep this.
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The spore and widow mine buff are incredibly inelegant solutions to the problems they are facing.
I am sure they will help balance but I feel like if they had been more bold earlier in the beta with altering design decisions then these band-aid/matchup specific modifiers wouldnt be necessary.
Trying different buffs to mutas, or changing how widow mines function(there were some really neat ideas for widow mines on various forumns) earlier on in a few different ways would have avoided these kind of fixes when it came down to crunchtime.
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On February 09 2013 11:57 Crownlol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 10:06 Valon wrote:On February 08 2013 10:01 Qikz wrote:On February 08 2013 09:59 Valon wrote:
I like how they asked for our opinion, it was overwhelmingly negative and the put the changes in anyway. Why bother to ask for out input if they don't listen. This is one of the worst patches ever does not address any problems namely sky toss. Skytoss has been good for like a month or so. That's no where near long enough to find out if it's actually balanced or people just don't know how to deal with it. The last thing I want them to do is nerf carriers now and they become useless again, same goes for the voidray. Sky toss is too good if it gets to late game zerg has zero answers to it. It needs some changes. Whoa. That's weird... sounds like infestor/broodlord.
No chance. It's wayyyy more powerful than infestor/broodlord. You actually could have units that could fight and trade relatively effectively vs. that. Lategame skytoss will crush any combination or permutation of zerg units with taking almost no losses. With infestor/broodlord, you were very vulnerable for a long time and vulnerable to counterattacks. Tempest/Carrier/Void not only is more mobile, flying, with greater range, but it becomes so cost efficient after you have about 4 carriers, you can spend the rest of your money on cannons and expos.
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You can't try to fix every issue at the same time... Allow the scientific method its due process. Afterall, this is beta, no point in getting your dick in a twist until a month has gone by from launch and the game is broken.
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People also neglect the fact that the tech tree can also reflect balance changes, if they made it, and this is hypothetical so dont shit a brick, to where the armory was 250/200 with or 200/200 with a longer construct time, or even making battle hellion mode a reasearchable tech, it ultimately delays how soon people can do battle hellion all-in style drops, or perhaps makes it significantly more expensive, thus riskier. To be honest I dont think its a bad approach now that seige mode is free. I feel like the damage and the healing is okay for late game, most people get butthurt because it can happen very quickly into the game (usually between 6-7 minutes is what it seems) People have this "nerf the fuck out of a unit into obvlivion" approach and thats how we lose things like the warhound permanently. Be considerate, maybe theres an alternative approach to making it work. For those who are against Hellbats, they are fun to play with and they add a different dynamic to the game. Maybe we can work on some positive approaches to making them a little more approachable. You certainly dont hear anyone in the late game saying "Man those hellbats are too strong in the late game" its always "Hellbat drop is OP/uncounterable/raped my face."
edit- clarity
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EPT
