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On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever.
+damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember).
+damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
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edit: oh you were talking about archons
if not, you're wrong.
spores will only hit air
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On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:
+damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember).
+damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
Not quite, if a protoss is out of shields then it doesnt effect protoss any more then anyone else. That said it is a buff that only affects one matchup.
Only one race has biological air units (and spores can only hit air).
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On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead.
The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth.
Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support.
Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump.
The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics.
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On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum.
What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain.
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Does anyone even know how +shield damage works yet? Or have they added it as a unit attribute? If it is still not a unit attribute then how it works is a huge question.
Does that mean any unit that has shields among it's stats takes the full damage (ie works like if shields were a unit attribute)?
Or does it still only do the basic damage if a unit already lost shields?
What if the target has some shields left but less than the difference of the bonus? Follow up to that one: what is the order of operations if it is intended that the bonus only damages shields specifically but there are not enough shields for it to go into?
Could this lead to a situation where a unit would have been better off with no shield left rather than the sliver of shield it might have had when hit? Or does this damage potentially have an anti-synergy with EMP?
At the end of the day it boils down to this: Does a protoss unit with 130 health and no shields die when hit? What about 130 health and 5 shields?
And finally, does it have any noteworthy interaction with an immortal's hardened shields? Or are those missiles magic damage anyway and I'm just being a no-hots experience noob?
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On February 09 2013 04:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead. The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth. Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support. Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump. The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics.
I know, I am not saying it's an incorrect counter. The way the game is designed, it is one of the only counters. It still sucks though. For Terran TvT & TvP the first 7-8 minutes of a terran opening is pigeon holed into hard countering a build order loss, that leads to really exploitive gameplay.
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On February 09 2013 04:47 Irrelevant Label wrote:
Does anyone even know how +shield damage works yet? Or have they added it as a unit attribute? If it is still not a unit attribute then how it works is a huge question.
Does that mean any unit that has shields among it's stats takes the full damage (ie works like if shields were a unit attribute)?
Or does it still only do the basic damage if a unit already lost shields?
What if the target has some shields left but less than the difference of the bonus? Follow up to that one: what is the order of operations if it is intended that the bonus only damages shields specifically but there are not enough shields for it to go into?
Could this lead to a situation where a unit would have been better off with no shield left rather than the sliver of shield it might have had when hit? Or does this damage potentially have an anti-synergy with EMP?
At the end of the day it boils down to this: Does a protoss unit with 130 health and no shields die when hit? What about 130 health and 5 shields?
And finally, does it have any noteworthy interaction with an immortal's hardened shields? Or are those missiles magic damage anyway and I'm just being a no-hots experience noob?
it would be completely pointless if they didn't do the shield damage first, so lets presume this is the case. That means they deal 35 shield damage first, if no shield is left no damage is done. If 5 shield is left, 5 damage is done. After that the regular damage hits home.
To answer your question, a unit with 130 hp and a unit with 130 hp and 5 shield will both end up with 5 hp remaining.
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On February 09 2013 04:49 nottapro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:20 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 nottapro wrote:On February 09 2013 02:38 TheDougler wrote:On February 09 2013 02:27 grockey wrote:
TvT strats vs Helbat drops. Mass Vikings. Think about it... they outrange the helbats, and they can take down the medivacs. Huh... Not sure if insane or genius. Every bone in my body is telling me this is a stupid idea yet... I dunno. Can somebody else tell me this is a stupid idea? If they rush Hellbats, you have to rush 1-1-1 & you'll only have 1 viking by the time their hellbats arrive. It takes several shots to take down a medivac and they are speed boosted, so you won't deny the first drop. You will have sacrificed economy to protect against it & you have 4 hellbats you still need to kill while your mineral line is in serious danger. Its a fine strategy mid game. But relatively, useless early game. You'll still either end up slightly behind or just dead. The point of an early Viking is to prevent them from safely picking up hellbats back and forth. Its cheaper (gas wise) than a medivac and you will have your own hell(bats/ions) as well combined with marine support. Split, force them to focus on individual marines, don't clump. The goal isn't to "counter" Hellbats with vikings--it's called tactics. I know, I am not saying it's an incorrect counter. The way the game is designed, it is one of the only counters. It still sucks though. For Terran TvT & TvP the first 7-8 minutes of a terran opening is pigeon holed into hard countering a build order loss, that leads to really exploitive gameplay.
Exploitative gameplay is a reaver killing the entire worker line, in one shot, from 9 range.
Ferrying melee units while using speed boosts to close range gaps is not exactly A-Move and is about as tedious as early game bane wars in ZvZ. Not that I approve bane wars in zvz--it's my worse matchup.
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On February 09 2013 04:33 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 03:29 Tuczniak wrote:On February 09 2013 03:26 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 08 2013 10:29 avilo wrote:
...
Pages have been written on the pro forums on how to make mech tvp more viable, and why it does not work, as well as about the flaws of the supply efficiency of the widow mine.
... What are these "pro forums" you refer to? Probably blizzard hots progamers forum. What? There is a private forum on battle.net for progamers to discuss HOTS? AVILO has access to it? Explain.
Yes, and AVILO has access for reasons beyond my understanding.
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I like the widow mine buff, they are trying to make Mech in TvP work so that's a good step. The other buffs to toss and Zerg really wont change much, the nerf to the speed of the projectile is also needed, but I think that they need to help out Zerg to deal with sky toss. As a Terran player I am willing to go Mech against toss now.
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They need to remove the medivac speed boost aswell as nerf hellbat damage imo. Right now TvZ is broken as hell.
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I think terran need something different to be as strong as the other races in end-game, but not the widows mines.
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On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units.
I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
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United Kingdom12032 Posts
On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
They couldn't really increase the damage against anything else in fear of them becoming too powerful against zerg and terran.
They're in a nice place against Z and T, but terrible against protoss at the moment as they barely even dent a zealot. By increasing damage against shields it gives them a place in the matchup.
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Is the patch online now? Haven't got HotS myself so I can't tell.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
EMP has + damage to shields. It's far from unprecedented.
Shields is just another 'type' to work with.
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On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously?
why is this a problem? It is no problem to memorize this and if you have a problem you can still play a different game. I think these changes are great and something like that should have happened earlier in other balancing issues.
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On February 09 2013 05:49 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 05:42 i)awn wrote:On February 09 2013 04:16 JDub wrote:On February 09 2013 02:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:
I don't really see how +damage vs. shields is any different from bonus damage vs. bio, which Archons have had for forever. +damage vs. shields is equivalent to +damage vs. Protoss. It's a buff that literally only affects one matchup, which is something new in SC2 (as far as I can remember). +damage vs. biological, on the other hand, is bonus damage that affects all 3 matchups, since every race has biological units. I'm really disappointed that no one seems to be concerned about this unprecedented approach to unit damage modifier. I really don't care about the balance as numbers can always be changed but I find it completely outrageous that they actually resorted to such techniques. They already have the overwhelming armor and unit types (psionic, light, armored, massive, biological) and they couldn't work around that? + damage vs race x? Seriously? EMP has + damage to shields. It's far from unprecedented. Shields is just another 'type' to work with.
Not really, EMP is an ability here we are talking about an attack of a unit doing bonus damage vs a race; the latter is unprecedented.
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On February 09 2013 05:47 Spinoza wrote:
Is the patch online now? Haven't got HotS myself so I can't tell.
Yes it is.
Have to admit, these weren't really changes I was personally looking for.
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EPT
