• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:30
CEST 07:30
KST 14:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202548RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Update] ShieldBattery: 1v1 Fastest Support! Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series ASL20 Preliminary Maps BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 691 users

David Kim on potential beta changes (Feb 4th,2013) - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 36 Next All
Dirkinity
Profile Joined November 2012
Germany409 Posts
February 04 2013 23:03 GMT
#121
Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 04 2013 23:03 GMT
#122
On February 05 2013 08:00 CoR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 07:59 Plansix wrote:
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote:
People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people

Hots is on the right tracks.


I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.


i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^


You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Goldfish
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
2230 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-04 23:16:39
February 04 2013 23:14 GMT
#123
On February 05 2013 03:59 emythrel wrote:
the spore buff is a very clever way to target only zvz. This is the sort of thing they should be trying to find more often when going after a specific matchup for balance.


Not clever enough.

They could make it so abilities deal damage specifically to 1 specific unit than a class of units.

It's possible in the editor.

They could make it so Spores deal bonus damage only to Mutalisk and nothing else (all they need to do is just make Spore damage dealt as a (set) effect with two different (damage) effects, one that deals normal damage against all units with a validator that excludes Mutalisks, and another that targets only mutalisks, with a validator that checks for mutalisks).

They could then add an icon on the Spore that lists this. Alternatively they could give a behavior (with the combat section set to only take effect from spores) to Mutalisk that makes it so they take more damage from spores.

Yeah it's may be weird at first but it'd be a really easy way to balance specific match ups.

As for lore reasons reasons?

They could think of creative names for abilities - Anti Mutalisk Spores (okay that's not a creative name but you get the point >.>).

Edit - This post isn't talking about the change but what Blizzard could do in the future to balance specific match ups (make things target specific units directly instead of a class of units like biological, mechanical, etc).
https://connect.microsoft.com/WindowsServerFeedback/feedback/details/741495/biggest-explorer-annoyance-automatic-sorting-windows-7-server-2008-r2-and-vista#details Allow Disable Auto Arrange in Windows 7+
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-04 23:19:55
February 04 2013 23:14 GMT
#124
On February 05 2013 08:03 Dirkinity wrote:
Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.

That is your problem because you don't like them, Widow Mine is damn strong unit right now. MaruPrime beat Sen yesterday pretty much with just Widow Mines. He used Tanks and Hellbats, but 70% of his army were Widow Mines, literally.

Both Hellbats and Widow Mines are great units, and great addition to the Terran, and both can be used in the late game against Zerg, but Widow Mines aren't as good vs. Protoss.

On February 05 2013 07:36 RuneZerg wrote:
Swarm Host anyone? defines useless

Or you can actually check this thread, and see how "useless" they really are.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396251
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
Patate
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada441 Posts
February 04 2013 23:15 GMT
#125
Yeah ok, how about " Change unit movement and dynamic", "lower income per bases to encourage more mining bases" and " raise supply limit so that people aren't maxed out after 11 min"?

These would be REAL changes to try, not puting overlord speed at tier 1. Do they really think they have a finished product that requires a little tweaking? Seriously?

no wonders this game is dying..
Dead game.
Psychobabas
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
2531 Posts
February 04 2013 23:18 GMT
#126
On February 05 2013 08:03 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 08:00 CoR wrote:
On February 05 2013 07:59 Plansix wrote:
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote:
People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people

Hots is on the right tracks.


I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.


i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^


You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.


Very true. I also quit diablo 3 after 3-4 weeks of playing back in May-June 2012 because of how unplayable the game was back then. I have recently come back to it and it is almost a different game. Enormous improvements.
sagefreke
Profile Joined August 2010
United States241 Posts
February 04 2013 23:23 GMT
#127
On February 05 2013 08:03 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 08:00 CoR wrote:
On February 05 2013 07:59 Plansix wrote:
On February 05 2013 07:43 Ambre wrote:
People, don't worry, when D3 first came out I was really excited, but then I realised that the game had very little replayability, but now I am playing it again as well as more than dozens of people

Hots is on the right tracks.


I went back as well and its pretty good at this point. Blizzard is best over time, as they refine their games. After all, the D2 we love came after the expansion. Blizzard always builds on a foundation. SC prime was pretty busted when it came out, also.


i still play d2 because d3 is still shit bad example ^^


You play current d2, with a full expansion, which has been out for years and had tons of patches to refine it down to the game you like to play now. My point still stands that it takes a lot of time and normally one expasion before Blizzard games really get into the deep endgame stuff. You don't play unpatch D2, version 1.0.



How is D3 improved? I played it for the first 3 months and couldn't get over how boring and repetitive it was. (Not trying to get off track)


I honestly wish I could understand David Kim's thought process on making overlord speed hatch tech... It would've been neat pre-WoL Ovie speed buff but now I don't see the point since I can get all my scouting done with just regular slow overlords. Of all the issues with HotS I don't see how overlord speed is an issue in the slightest.
yo yo yo
Warpish
Profile Joined June 2011
834 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-04 23:30:38
February 04 2013 23:25 GMT
#128
I can´t believe that HotS will turn out like this. I'm so disappointed...

Swarm Hosts - Useless and silly. Bad concept.
Viper - Blinding Cloud is OK but Abduct is terrible. Is this unit interesting enough ??

This is Heart Of the Swarm, Zerg deserved Better.

Oracle - From an unit that used to force field minerals to a worker lines exterminator. Did Blizzard ever had a plan for this unit?
Tempest - Boring, uninteresting and uninspired unit. A Brood Lord for Toss and the 12nd way to destroy Siege tanks. Didn´t Blizzard wanted to promote mech play?
MS Core - Another boring and conceptually weak unit. Blizzard wants it to do everything and in reality it does almost nothing.

Widow Mines - Mines that attack air and ground !!!! Mines that are reusable !!! What are these supposed to do?? Counter Mutas ?? How about a something like Goliaths !
Hellbat - Seriously Blizzard???? Hellbats can be healed by Medivacs !!! Why not make Medivacs heal Tanks, Vikings in ground mode, Thors and Hellions ??? Because it's silly that's why. If you want them to be healed by Medivacs bring Firebats back.

I wish Blizzard was brave enough to make big changes and acknowledge that they're heading in the wrong direction. I wish Blizzard was brave enough to adopt units from BW if many of their ideas for HotS are clearly inferior. I wish Blizzard postponed the release because HotS multiplayer is just not looking good right now.


Decendos
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany1338 Posts
February 04 2013 23:37 GMT
#129
its so disappointing. there are so many problems with zerg and kim decides to nerf infestor even more so there is even less of an answer to mass air T/P play and now he buffs overlordspeed. YAY. thats really what zerg needs right now. zerg doesnt need better hydras, SH, nydus, burrowmovement, ovidrop or mutas being viable ZvT or BLs being viable at all. zerg also doesnt need less boring corruption or contaminate and also doesnt need any answer to mass air play. /sarcasm off.

playing T since today. so much more fun.
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-04 23:44:21
February 04 2013 23:43 GMT
#130
Someone who really follows BW explain to me, how do the pros beat mass mutas in ZvZ in Brood War? That strategy seems like a top candidate for Blizzard to help port over, especially since BW Zerg and SC2 Zerg have the most similar units of all the races. The SC2 hydralisks, as maligned as they are, are actually far superior to the BW hydralisks against mutas. They have half the hp per cost, but triple the DPS and greater range, and they also move much faster. (on creep, but against mutas that's all that matters)
nomyx
Profile Joined June 2012
United States2205 Posts
February 04 2013 23:49 GMT
#131
On February 05 2013 08:43 Xequecal wrote:
Someone who really follows BW explain to me, how do the pros beat mass mutas in ZvZ in Brood War? That strategy seems like a top candidate for Blizzard to help port over, especially since BW Zerg and SC2 Zerg have the most similar units of all the races. The SC2 hydralisks, as maligned as they are, are actually far superior to the BW hydralisks against mutas. They have half the hp per cost, but triple the DPS and greater range, and they also move much faster. (on creep, but against mutas that's all that matters)


they dont, bw is tech to muta
+scourge every game in zvz
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
February 04 2013 23:52 GMT
#132
On February 05 2013 06:54 Prime Directive wrote:
Think a better change would be the ability to morph an overseer at tier 1. Not as big of an investment so early in the game and changelings / contaminate might make for an intersting early game tool to prevent timings.


Contaminate on the cybernetics core researching warpgates is a free win for Zerg, every time.
TrainerRed
Profile Joined February 2013
United States18 Posts
February 04 2013 23:54 GMT
#133
I don't play ZvZ so this patch is a bit null and void aside from the fact that zergs will be able to just run overlords through your base now, at anytime, without any reasoning behind it, and still be safe.
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
February 05 2013 00:03 GMT
#134
arghh complete moron david kim. Why introduce all these ugly fixes to 'solve' the muta problem... Muta's were fine in WoL.. usable in all matchups and but mostly a suprise tactic except perhaps TvZ.
Then in HotS they add two stupid changes: widow mine that hits air (why really??) and protoss cannon that hits air (again why??). They try to 'solve' the reduced viability of muta's by buffing it.. Then they buff phoenix range to respond to this again..
And now they try to buff spores because muta's are too strong..

It's all rediculous changes to start with moving in a circle, they should have just retained old muta functionality. Small fungal nerf but a hydra buff would have been fine to keep them in check for ZvZ..
playa
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1284 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-05 00:06:16
February 05 2013 00:04 GMT
#135
The oracle needs more vision. 60 seconds of detection, that's it? Where's the maphack and/or permanent detection? God forbid I want to play as greedy and reckless as possible and I might have to make an observer at some point in the game. I'm trying to play some skytoss, and I just don't think it would be right if there were any conceivable counters other than to out skytoss me.

Envision is really the spell that has to be enhanced. Who uses revelation? How about lowering the cost of energy for that or altering that in some way? I think it's cool that sky toss is real good like, too bad it's probably worse than watching bl/infestor every game. I can't imagine sair/reaver or any BW strat being this god awful to watch.
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
February 05 2013 00:12 GMT
#136
Wow, they're completely clueless.

Zealot Lord
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong747 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-05 00:23:17
February 05 2013 00:20 GMT
#137
These changes are generally all fine by themselves.. but none of the core issues are touched =/

My personal dream patch will be something along these lines..

Protoss
-MSC back to being attached to Nexus, has detection spell.
-Blink research nerf reverted back (due to above change).
-Oracles changed, too much of an all or nothing unit at this point.
-Carrier build time reduced (long overdue).
-Stalker AA damage buffed slightly (Toss has too much trouble dealing with the improved mutas and medivacs imo).

Zerg
-Hive tech upgrade for Hydralisks AA and/or HP boost.
-Swarmhosts, this is a tough unit to balance atm, a good amount of people think this is OP, while there are others that argue its a completely useless unit. Personally I'd like to see a lower dps to the locusts but increase their life or something.
-Queen ground attack range reduced by 1 (so that early TvZ pressure is slightly more effective again, I don't like the direction that they are taking to encourage massive turtle macro games).

Terran
-Siege mode needs research again (literally nobody ever asked for this change).
-Siege tank late game upgrade (increase damage or perhaps an upgrade that reduces supply cost of unit to 2 or something).
-Medivac speed boost either requires a research or has some drawback (for instance some bnet people suggested that after you use it you cannot unload units for X duration of time after the booster).
-Hellbats, no longer considered bio, cannot be healed by medivac (seriously, this makes no f'ing sense..how can a unit property transform between mech/bio???)
-Widow mines, burrow time increased slightly, this unit should be used strategically in defensive locations, not a gimmicky offensive unit. Supply cost reduced to 1; and whatever changes it needs to be fair game in TvZ.


There's probably a lot more that needs to be changed.. and now that I think about it, gosh, there's so much they need to work on with just a month less on the release.. For those people that think there's no need to rush a more polished game at release because D3 has shown that you can have a game that can improve a ton over time (which it has), I humbly disagree that that is a good approach. Yes there has been players that have returned for D3 with the recent patches, but its a fraction of the initial population that are lost and will never come back again.

DemigodcelpH
Profile Joined August 2011
1138 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-05 00:27:51
February 05 2013 00:25 GMT
#138
On February 05 2013 08:37 Decendos wrote:
its so disappointing. there are so many problems with zerg and kim decides to nerf infestor even more so there is even less of an answer to mass air T/P play and now he buffs overlordspeed. YAY. thats really what zerg needs right now. zerg doesnt need better hydras, SH, nydus, burrowmovement, ovidrop or mutas being viable ZvT or BLs being viable at all. zerg also doesnt need less boring corruption or contaminate and also doesnt need any answer to mass air play. /sarcasm off.

playing T since today. so much more fun.


There's really no room for you to be complaining so extensively like that considering that Zerg is generally agreed upon, even by some top Zerg players, to be the 2nd strongest race in HotS. Infestors are still much too strong of a catch-all kill-everything unit to be considered a support caster. Viper unit combinations counters all of Terran air and mech (anything that isn't bio), though it's not the same versus skytoss because Tempests have more range than the siege tank for some reason.
i)awn
Profile Joined October 2011
United States189 Posts
February 05 2013 00:26 GMT
#139
I can't see the need for the overlord speed buff move to tier 1. It's not like they can't scout before it; they already have the earliest flying scouts that require little to no investment.
Eskiya23
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands105 Posts
February 05 2013 00:36 GMT
#140
On February 05 2013 08:14 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 08:03 Dirkinity wrote:
Looks like they are done with balancing terran. HotS is bascially WoL Terran + Hellbats -.- I don't really like Widow Mines or think they are useful for more than dropdefense.

That is your problem because you don't like them, Widow Mine is damn strong unit right now. MaruPrime beat Sen yesterday pretty much with just Widow Mines. He used Tanks and Hellbats, but 70% of his army were Widow Mines, literally.

Both Hellbats and Widow Mines are great units, and great addition to the Terran, and both can be used in the late game against Zerg, but Widow Mines aren't as good vs. Protoss.

Show nested quote +
On February 05 2013 07:36 RuneZerg wrote:
Swarm Host anyone? defines useless

Or you can actually check this thread, and see how "useless" they really are.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=396251



I'm sure MaruPrime can beat any Zerg, regardless of Widow Mines.

Widow Mines can hit that small timing window before detection and/or lots of units. It fires at cloaked units as well, so
they are great vs DT/Banshee openers. The drawback is that it requires burrow micro, easy defuseable and it has a very slow
rate of fire. Great unit for both offense and defense.
Wisdom. Judgement. Execution. Stream: twitch.tv/eskiyasc2 Twitter: @EskiyaSC
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 36 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 4h 30m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft569
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 638
Leta 601
ggaemo 282
Noble 88
Icarus 7
Britney 0
League of Legends
JimRising 826
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K808
Other Games
summit1g11441
hungrybox265
ViBE202
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1497
BasetradeTV53
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 51
• Sammyuel 14
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki34
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra2727
• Stunt479
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
4h 30m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 5h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.