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On February 07 2013 07:08 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 06:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 06:54 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:37 Ben... wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two. The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds. Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again. I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play. edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all.
Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro.
Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
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Want to counter hellbat drops as Terran? Planetary Fortress first!!! Then do your own hellbat drops and profit.
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On February 07 2013 07:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 07:08 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 06:54 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:37 Ben... wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two. The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds. Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again. I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play. edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all. Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro. Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away.
Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
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They need to change the voidray back or re work the change they implemented. PvP has become awful because of it.
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Hellbats are like Terran roaches.
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At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
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On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Not only low league, even at pro level this is the case.
But fear not, David Kim is NOT SURE that this is actually the problem because he thinks Zerg didn´t yet try to RUN AWAY from Voidrays when they use the charge ....
On February 07 2013 07:24 Zombo Joe wrote:
Hellbats are like Terran roaches.
which cost no gas, have splash and are (possibly) way way faster.
Yep just like Roaches,
just. like. roaches...
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On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units.
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On February 07 2013 07:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better. Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units. Because players are stupid and would much rather whine than do the things that they already know that they need to do.
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On February 07 2013 07:32 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 07:28 Plansix wrote:On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better. Why would you ever stop baneling busting greedy protoss players? We deserve it. Zergs need to bring the fear if they see a protoss for pure stargate to force them to invest in ground units. Because players are stupid and would much rather whine than do the things that they already know that they need to do.
I hate attacking protoss because of force fields. It's like.. I've put all this money into these units, and they're never going to do anything because that ramp just disappeared.
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hmm that mine change is rather interesting....I still dont think it enough to ever make the mine ever viable in Tvp becvause this just the nature that the mine cost 2 supply but who knows I could be wrong. Either way, it does encourage more usage of mine in TvP.
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On February 07 2013 07:18 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 07:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 07:08 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 06:54 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:37 Ben... wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two. The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds. Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again. I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play. edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all. Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro. Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away. Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable.
You only bring 1 Reaver.
This is how much it costs
Tech needed
Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas)
Units needed
Shuttle + Reaver (400min 100 gas) vs Medivac + 4 Hellions (500min 100gas)
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On February 07 2013 08:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 07:18 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 07:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 07:08 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 06:54 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:37 Ben... wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two. The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds. Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again. I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play. edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all. Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro. Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away. Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable. You only bring 1 Reaver. This is how much it costs Tech needed Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas) Units needed Shuttle + Reaver (400min 100 gas) vs Medivac + 4 Hellions (500min 100gas)
Robo is a dead end, tech-wise in BW. As for the helion drops, you ARE going to make those buildings anyway.. and soon enough too.
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On February 07 2013 08:09 Patate wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 07:18 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 07:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 07:08 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:59 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 06:54 Pursuit_ wrote:On February 07 2013 06:37 Ben... wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now But people are already starting to figure out defenses against hellbat drops as has been stated many times, you just seem to be ignoring that. There is a significant difference in the 1-supply roach and the hellbat. The hellbat requires armory tech and medivacs, which is a significant gas investment, which basically means if you don't do significant damage, you lose because teching that hard puts you way behind. The 1 supply roach only required a 150 mineral building that only requires spawning pool before being built and was around at a time when you could literally walk across a map in two or three screens, making the roach even stronger, even if it had one less range. You simply cannot compare the two. The reason I am so against them nerfing hellbats is that they aren't really super strong outside of drops so nerfing them would turn them into the new WOL reaper where they get treated like the ugly stepchild of Terran. If they have to nerf something, it should be to make the NOS system on medivacs be a cheap upgrade to allow it to be accessible for regular pushes but not really early for gimmicky builds. Another easy way to fix hellbat drops would be to get rid of the bonus vs light entirely and let the blue flame upgrade affect them again. I'm getting tired of this WoW mentality where if something is hard people simply yell at Blizzard instead of changing map design and re-evaluating standard play. edit: Masters Terran on HotS and WoL, and I think Medivac Hellbat is extremely fun. The only problem I have with it atm is how good it is at both killing units and workers. It 2 shots workers (similar to how blue flame hellions used to, before they got nerfed) but can also stand toe to toe with roaches. With good medivac micro drones can't really run away either. I feel like killing workers in 3 shots would be more reasonable, the tactic would still be powerful but not nearly so much as it is now, and it wouldn't affect hellbat vs queen or hellbat vs roach dynamics at all. Reavers would 2-shot mineral lines. People said it was okay since it required drop micro. Hellbats require the same medivac micro to do the same otherwise drones just run away. Reavers were quite a big investment, losing a shuttle with 2 Reavers could be considered game ending. I don't think the scenarios are really comparable. You only bring 1 Reaver. This is how much it costs Tech needed Robo Bay => Robo facility (350min 300gas) vs Factory => Armory + Starport (450min 300gas) Units needed Shuttle + Reaver (400min 100 gas) vs Medivac + 4 Hellions (500min 100gas) Robo is a dead end, tech-wise in BW. As for the helion drops, you ARE going to make those buildings anyway.. and soon enough too.
Just saying--getting tech for it is easy enough, and the drops themselves costs about the same if you lose them.
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On February 07 2013 07:17 ElMeanYo wrote:
Want to counter hellbat drops as Terran? Planetary Fortress first!!! Then do your own hellbat drops and profit.
that would actually be a kind of hilarious metagame 
also i gotta say i enjoy watching high-level pvp in hots, seems pretty instense with all the msc micro
On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
that last suggestion got to be the worst one in the whole thread...
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I think the beta just went down and they're about to make some changes.
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On February 07 2013 08:40 ManicMarine wrote:
I think the beta just went down and they're about to make some changes.
Well beta went down not sure if it's for changes though.
Edit: Def not for changes it's already back up for me.
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On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary
That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch...
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On February 07 2013 07:24 cerebralz wrote:
At the Plat level ZvP, you see all protoss players going mass air in the late game where no combination or permutation of units will even halfway match up. I think something needs to be done about that or i will continue to baneling bust and roach rush all P players to give me an edge into the midgame.
I think a reasonable thing to do is to make carriers have a cooldown, say 5 seconds from combat to rebuild interceptors. Either that or have a 33% chance for every attack to 1-shot interceptors, that way marines and hydras will be able to clear out the interceptors a little better.
This is the exact problem with PvZ in WoL, but now the shoes on the other foot. Since I'm not very good, my biggest problems come with actually getting up to the ultimate army comp. I always get stomped by roach/hydra or whatnot before I have enough of an air force to matter (which was the protoss burden in WoL). Hopefully zerg gets a better solution than a gimicky hero unit. I like that all the races have gotten more flexible with HotS and I don't want to see it trimmed up.
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EPT
