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On February 07 2013 11:11 ysnake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:54 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:20 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 08:44 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch... Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that? Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units. Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch. It's not a "free hatchery". Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS. The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss.
Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper.
And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
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On February 07 2013 11:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:11 ysnake wrote:On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:54 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:20 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 08:44 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch... Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that? Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units. Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch. It's not a "free hatchery". Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS. The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss. Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper. And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
Seed used to do a 14min maxed push with only blink stalkers àon entombed valley in PvZ by opening with a very early third nexus
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Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
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Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc.
On February 07 2013 12:30 AxionSteel wrote:
Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
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On February 07 2013 12:34 BigRedDog wrote:Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:30 AxionSteel wrote:
Mass swarm hosts look extremely strong (and boring) against terran. then again i've only seen a few pro games of it, but they seem very hard to deal with. Will have to watch a few more games of the better terran streamers I guess.
?
multi-pronged harass with a frontal push is considered boring to watch (aka multitasking)? what?
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I was focusing on the statement that zerg is very strong with Swarm Host.....no no...terran multi prong harass is not boring at all  ...
On February 07 2013 13:21 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:34 BigRedDog wrote:
Same thing can be said for a Terran's timing push before Zerg has their Lair tech set up. Hellbat drops, hellbat/marine, marine/tanks, mix in with a widow mine etc.
? multi-pronged harass with a frontal push is considered boring to watch (aka multitasking)? what?
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Changes I'll like to see as a bad terran:
-Medevac "sprint" cooldown increased by X (at least 5 seconds). Caduceus Reactor reduces the cooldown by X.
-Hellbat damage slightly reduced.
-Oracle production time increased by 5.
-Hydra hit points increased by 10 at least.
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Why do they keep whining that players should run away when Void rays are charged? Say 2 armies each does 1000 dps to eachother. If you run away you do 0 dps and the enemy does ~800 dps still...
This is in regards to big battles, not harrassment.
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How are there so many changes still coming when the game already has a release date?!
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On February 07 2013 16:40 asaed wrote:
Why are there only so few changes still coming when the game already has a release date?!
Fixed it for you.
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On February 07 2013 10:17 Swords wrote:
I just watched game 1 of Innovation vs. TY in the MLG HoTS showmatches.
Why are they concerned about muta vs. muta in ZvZ and having weird fixes for it when hellbat drops present the same problem they had in WoL when blue flame hellions decided every single TvT?
It's like instead of coming up with cool and creative new units and upgrades they just rebuffed everything they nerfed in WoL, and now they're coming up with the least creative solutions possible for stuff (extra damage vs. shields, spores do more against bio, etc.)
EDIT: I think with some tweaking the game could be really cool, I'm just disappointed in how they're patching the game, and I was pretty excited to watch TvT with lots of tank positioning and cool stuff like that.
Actually to give Baby (TY) some credit, he actually mustered a great defense with the clever use of window mine positioning and grounded vikings to stop the harass. He did it so convincingly to the point where he almost won the third game had he not been caught out of position by Bogus's units. Hellbats, unlike hellions have to be in melee range to do damage, so mine positions are highly simplified compared to fighting ranged units. As for my personal opinion, opening 111 with widow mines and viking into reactored vikings solves any future hellbat drops since air control is what you really need to deny any potential drop.
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Well I think they're all fair enough to try except I feel that this
David Kim wrote: We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now.
is because people WANT to make them work, so they're trying hard at it. :|
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On February 07 2013 18:30 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:Well I think they're all fair enough to try except I feel that this Show nested quote +David Kim wrote: We don't think Hydralisks are weak at all. Hydralisks are one of the most frequently used units in the beta right now. is because people WANT to make them work, so they're trying hard at it. :|
Furthermore what else shall Z build? There arent too much possibilities if you wanna go ground with the nerfed infestor, who will get nerfed even more shortly..
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I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored (and maybe reduce its build time a bit like 5s).
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On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote:
I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored.
They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff.
But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
Isn't it kind of weird that they are supposed to be one of the core T2 units, but are the only unit Zerg has that requires 2 upgrades to be useful? The other ones with 2 upgrades are a cherry on top, and both upgrades are basically a requirement for Hydras. Microed Hydras can do pretty good vs hellbats with speed + range, but without range they still get caught in Hellbats ranged attacks, without speed they can be cornered off creep. That's silly.
I can't think of any other unit in the game that's reliant on two separate upgrades just for the base functionality - usually 1 upgrade is for functionality, and the other is either a little more stats or a cherry on top. Both speed and range are fundamental for a Hydra. For comparisons Roach Speed is for functionality, burrow move is a cherry on top. Marine stim is functionality, combat shields a cherry on top.
Hydras would be in a pretty good spot if both of those upgrades were combined in to one, don't you think?
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LOL, first when I saw "David Kim on potential bet…" I thought they were thinking about adding a betting system to sc2 (with real money of course). o.O
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On February 07 2013 19:29 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote:
I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored. They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff. But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them. Isn't it kind of weird that they are supposed to be one of the core T2 units, but are the only unit Zerg has that requires 2 upgrades to be useful? The other ones with 2 upgrades are a cherry on top, and both upgrades are basically a requirement for Hydras. Microed Hydras can do pretty good vs hellbats with speed + range, but without range they still get caught in Hellbats ranged attacks, without speed they can be cornered off creep. That's silly. I can't think of any other unit in the game that's reliant on two separate upgrades just for the base functionality - usually 1 upgrade is for functionality, and the other is either a little more stats or a cherry on top. Both speed and range are fundamental for a Hydra. For comparisons Roach Speed is for functionality, burrow move is a cherry on top. Marine stim is functionality, combat shields a cherry on top. Hydras would be in a pretty good spot if both of those upgrades were combined in to one, don't you think?
I do partly agree about the upgrades being expensive. Still it wouldnt solve any problems. Its not about midgame, in midgame i can deal with voids very well. Its the endgame, when there is a strong groundarmy with lots of splash AND voidrays. Most times as soon as the protoss reaches 4 bases. Infested terrans wont help when toss goes for armor upgrades, hydras melt to storm and curropter melt to voidrays. Mutas are also good (are they still good?) vs voids, but its the same problem as with hydras. In the endgame there is too much splash envolved to make that work.
A buff about +1 range could maybe do a better job with solving that issue. But hey, blizzard said hydras are very strong, so dont hope for something like that :-P It probably will take a half year of tournaments until blizzard starts to realize what the problems really are
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On February 07 2013 19:29 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 19:26 -Archangel- wrote:
I would like to see hydra become anti-armored caster, this would help it fight tanks, marauders and void rays. Leave its damage as it is and add +2 to armored. Another option would be to turn it into something similar to BW, 1 supply, 75/25 cost, damage 6+6 vs armored. They kind of are, mostly because they are by default strong to the armored units rather than due to a direct buff. But honestly, if they buffed Hydras stats it probably would end up being too strong. I still think the best option would be to reduce the amount of upgrades it takes for them to be useful - that's the main problem with using them.
No they are not, they get killed by both tanks and enough voids supported by anything. They are even not that better against roaches without infestor support.
I think they should remain to be good damage dealers but do it better for their cost and still be vulnerable to AoE.
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On February 07 2013 19:34 Miragee wrote:
LOL, first when I saw "David Kim on potential bet…" I thought they were thinking about adding a betting system to sc2 (with real money of course). o.O
Same, but then again, it may be not implemented on NA due to America's law against gamble. 
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On February 07 2013 11:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:11 ysnake wrote:On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:54 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote:On February 07 2013 10:20 Xorphene wrote:On February 07 2013 08:44 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:but since Zerg need to expand eary That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch... Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that? Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units. Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch. It's not a "free hatchery". Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS. The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss. Thats not true at all. Zerglings and roaches are quite good. But to get the same army worth, you need more production slots because they are cheaper. And Im pretty sure that a protoss with 3nexus opening can come very close to max with zealots at 12min. He ia just not going to get there ever, just like roach maxes are not doable that early unless you flip a lot of coins.
You can max out a bit after 11 min on roach/ling with standard opening until min 8 (then producing units). Now, i would not define standard opening as very coin flippy.
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EPT
