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Beakyboo
United States485 Posts
Not a lot of players are doing the run away during Voidray is charged up micro. Makes us think even top players are still not that used to fighting against the new Voidray. I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:48 Beakyboo wrote: I'm not normally super critical about this stuff, but seriously? The "run away during voidray is charged up micro"? Is that intended to be a thing? I just don't see how anyone playing the game can actually think this is a good idea, or that it's interesting, or that it would even work at all. Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc... | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:50 Thieving Magpie wrote: Yeah, it's not like its what Marines do to banes What lings do to Colossi What stalkers do to marauders etc... You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:58 Infernal_dream wrote: You have obviously never encountered void rays. Come back once you do. Let me know how well "running away" works when the entire time you're running away the void ray is still beating your ass. Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed) Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: You have clearly never tried it. When a void rays beam hits an enemy it locks on. The max range of the beam then increases by 2 AND the voidray chases you while attacking (which given the speed of a void ray adds about an extra 1/2 to 1 range worth of damage). Once that beam touches an armored unit you may aswell consider it dead if it retreats regardless of its speed. The issue is not movement speed its the leash range mechanic.Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed) Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking. Do what he said an go experienent with it a little before trying to continue your argument. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed) Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking. Well, I believe that one of the issues with the "runaway" is that Tempests (and Colossi/Carriers) can do a lot of damage from up to 15range. At that time, you want to overrun those units. You run in, the void rays charge and what now? You back out and take more damage from the carriers and the Tempests? This is especially a problem in defensive situations, where backing out means losing bases/production/economy/tech. In theory, it is an interesting dynamic that gets introduced by the new charge. Practically speaking, it might need a lot of figuering in which situation it is actually worthwhile to micro against them, or whether you just try to rip of as much of their army for as long as you stil have one. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:16 Big J wrote: Well, I believe that one of the issues with the "runaway" is that Tempests (and Colossi/Carriers) can do a lot of damage from up to 15range. At that time, you want to overrun those units. You run in, the void rays charge and what now? You back out and take more damage from the carriers and the Tempests? This is especially a problem in defensive situations, where backing out means losing bases/production/economy/tech. In theory, it is an interesting dynamic that gets introduced by the new charge. Practically speaking, it might need a lot of figuering in which situation it is actually worthwhile to micro against them, or whether you just try to rip of as much of their army for as long as you stil have one. At that point the problem stops being ______ unit does X and starts becoming about how to properly deal with highly synergistic units. Kind of like what Protoss and Terran have had to do against Broodfestor compositions. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:03 Thieving Magpie wrote: Void Speed is 2.25 Hydralisk speed is 2.25 (+ 0.5625 speed) Zerg's slowest combat unit is faster than the Voidray. Mathematically speaking. You do know that void ray's charge ability doesn't do anything vs non-armored units, right? The point is to run away armored units while its charged. Also, move speeds aren't as important in this scenario as is the fact that void rays not only can attack while moving but also have a long 'leash' range when they've already acquired a target. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:26 Thieving Magpie wrote: At that point the problem stops being ______ unit does X and starts becoming about how to properly deal with highly synergistic units. Kind of like what Protoss and Terran have had to do against Broodfestor compositions. Well, yeah. But I don't believe the people who have trouble with void rays (the ones that David Kim is referring to) have them in a vanilia void ray early/midgame scenario. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12025 Posts
On February 07 2013 09:26 Zelniq wrote: You do know that void ray's charge ability doesn't do anything vs non-armored units, right? The point is to run away armored units while its charged. Also, move speeds aren't as important in this scenario as is the fact that void rays not only can attack while moving but also have a long 'leash' range when they've already acquired a target. See, as a meching terran I kind of understand what they want me to do, but considering both my viable forms of anti air are armored, I'm not entirely sure what to do against lots of voids :p | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
Why are they concerned about muta vs. muta in ZvZ and having weird fixes for it when hellbat drops present the same problem they had in WoL when blue flame hellions decided every single TvT? It's like instead of coming up with cool and creative new units and upgrades they just rebuffed everything they nerfed in WoL, and now they're coming up with the least creative solutions possible for stuff (extra damage vs. shields, spores do more against bio, etc.) EDIT: I think with some tweaking the game could be really cool, I'm just disappointed in how they're patching the game, and I was pretty excited to watch TvT with lots of tank positioning and cool stuff like that. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10699 Posts
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On February 07 2013 08:44 ChromeBallz wrote: That's exactly what i mean. You don't NEED to expand early, that's a meta that got pounded into everyone in WoL simply because it was so damn easy to do. There's quite a few things zerg can do off 1 base, or they can simply expand later. It'll mess with most terrans heads aswell when they don't see the early hatch... Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On February 07 2013 10:20 Xorphene wrote: Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 07 2013 10:20 Xorphene wrote: Uh, except zerg DO, due to the larvae mechanic. Additionally, the two issues with hellbat drops are: 1. Medivac speed boost. 2. Hellbats being healed by Medivacs. No he is right. It's not that Zerg HAS TO build a hatchery very fast. It simply turned out that in the WoL metagame you couldn't do anything else that was kind of stable. With new possibilities (burrow on hatchtech, early siege weapons), there could very well be some 1base stuff around - not that I believe it, but it could be and has to be figuered. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On February 07 2013 10:36 Infernal_dream wrote: It's called make another hatchery. You think you should get as much production as 3 raxes or 4 gates for free? That's why you zergs think you need the extra base. You don't. I have to pay 600 minerals for my 4 gates. Terran has to pay that much + some for addons for their rax. And you think your free hatchery should be able to keep up with production against that? Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units. Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch. It's not a "free hatchery". Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS. | ||
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Infernal_dream
United States2359 Posts
On February 07 2013 10:54 Xorphene wrote: Except Zerg also needs a queen, and then produces 8 larvae per cycle. 8 larvae, which is committed BETWEEN workers and units. Which is also why Zerg need a macro hatch. It's not a "free hatchery". Also anything other than taking the second hatch at the natural leaves you significantly behind vs a FFE/Nexus first or 1 Rax FE/CC first - both builds that remain extremely popular in HotS. The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. | ||
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Xorphene
United Kingdom492 Posts
On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote: The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. That produces Zerglings and Queens only. By the same logic, 2 Nexus + Cyber Core + 4 Gates = 600 minerals, and you can produce Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries. Again, larvae is shared between workers and units. In a typical ZvP in WoL, a Zerg only overtakes Protoss around 38 workers. The Protoss also has some semblance of an army whereas the Zerg has to be as greedy as possible to overtake on workers at that point. | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote: The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. Yes, and Zerg needs to outproduce those races, simply because our T1 units are shittier than your T1. If a Protoss could max out at 12 minutes (the old Stephano style), I think we would be all playing Protoss. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On February 07 2013 11:02 Infernal_dream wrote: The first hatch you start with is definitely free. It starts off producing units. If you want to include the cost of the pool then it's 800 minerals for 2 queens/pool/hatchery. Which is only 200 minerals more than t/p. And you know what else? You still outproduce us with that. You guys are putting the cart before the horse. Zerg does not technically have to expand early--however, the units given to zerg are designed to be produce in large number at low cost to trade inefficiently with enemy troops. They are also given great mobility and speed as well as a certain level of specificity as to their roles. This is because Zerg production is larva based which levels out the production rate of all units since multiple units can be produced at once. This creates the zerg advantage of map control as well as the threat of a troop surge that T/P have to always be aware of. When T/P move out they want to make sure that Zerg does not suddenly pop out 100 lings to surround the army. Because of this, Zerg the zerg is able to expand both early and often. Because of this, zerg play leans heavily on fast expand builds. However, this "fast expand" is not actually as greedy as it looks. 15 Hatch then pool, 14 pool then Hatch vs 14 cc, 12rax then CC vs 15 nex, 13forge then nex, 13 gate then nex, etc.... How quickly the expansion is taken is not *that* much faster than Terran/Toss. Zerg's "expansion greedy" focus does not come into play really until he grabs his 4rth/5th base. So no, Zerg doesn't "need" to grab a 15 hatch. He can easily grab a 14 pool, then hatch. He can grab a 14 gas, 14 pool, early speed and then 18/22 hatch. But the same could be said about Terran's 1raxFE, Toss's ForgeFE, 1Gate FE, etc... Heck, Nexus first produces more workers than a 15 hatch during the early part of the game and it isn't until zerg starts to saturate the 3rd that they begin to get ahead. Trying to yell at Zerg for expanding at 15 supply is silly--Protoss and Terran can expand as quickly and as safely. | ||
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