|
@ShamWoW, it does one-shot a Stalker, Widow Mine damage ignores armor since it is ability damage and not an actual attack. That is why it ignores Blinding Cloud as well. And that is why Mine damage isn't increased by the upgrades, it isn't decreased by the armor in the first place.
|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Widow Mine attack is a spell attack. It ignores armor
|
The widow mine patch is finally here. Good.
The amount of butt hurt over the widow mine is understandable but futile, Terran was THE de facto burst damage race. Three of the big burst damage units: Thor/siege tank/Widow mine (spider mine)
Balance is restored.
|
On February 06 2013 22:01 Ramiz1989 wrote:
@ShamWoW, it does one-shot a Stalker, Widow Mine damage ignores armor since it is ability damage and not an actual attack. That is why it ignores Blinding Cloud as well. And that is why Mine damage isn't increased by the upgrades, it isn't decreased by the armor in the first place.
There you have it then. 
|
On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune. tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD
1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop.
2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing.
3) Profit!
Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too.
As to the magic number,
|
On February 06 2013 22:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune. tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game. WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 2.1) Since you spent money on gas, and gas on burrow, you have fewer everything
2.2) Terran owns you harder if you fail burrow micro, or Terran spends a scan and owns you hard either way3) Terran Profit! Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
fix
|
On February 06 2013 22:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune. tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game. WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 3) Profit! Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number,
I've tried to research early burrow for defending this and, at least so far, it's not too effective. Mind you I tried it with Queens AND Roaches so maybe just Queens with burrow would be more effective. It's moments like this that I wish the unranked ladder would let me specifically choose to play against Terran opponents.
|
On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.
Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
|
On February 05 2013 12:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote:
So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top. Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads. You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. This next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that we ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins. Disgusted and disappointed. P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet
/tread.
We are in a world of loud cry-babies-overreactors.
|
On February 06 2013 22:48 ShamW0W wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 22:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune. tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game. WARNING: THEORYCRAFT AHEAD 1) Save Queen energy, research burrow upon scouting incoming hellbat drop. 2) Queue heals, micro injured queens by burrowing. 3) Profit! Really rough outline, let's not forget, queens are medics too. As to the magic number, I've tried to research early burrow for defending this and, at least so far, it's not too effective. Mind you I tried it with Queens AND Roaches so maybe just Queens with burrow would be more effective. It's moments like this that I wish the unranked ladder would let me specifically choose to play against Terran opponents.
There's no reason to produce roaches, since Queens have 15% more HP AND can attack air.
In fact, get a good concave and expand behind the drop, and you pretty much would end up ahead, as he'd have to burn scans to detect the burrowed queens.
Six queens with 100mp each will more than be able to deal with the drop.
|
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're incorrect on the roach range. It has a range of 4, 2 greater than the helbat. Moreover, roaches are nearly 3.0 speed on creep, which is .75 faster. With a 2 range and speed advantage on creep, helbats are EASILY kited. All players really need to defend vs drop is to a) Queen focus on Medivac b) build more than 8 roaches and focus fire each hellbat, killing 1 hellbat per volley. Having 1-2 spines per base also makes defense alot easier and avoid clumping to minimise damage.
In addition, if T goes for such an opening, you can transition easily to nydus which should kill the Terran off since they've already committed a significant amount of resources for that particular opening and would have a piss weak army if they follow it up with expo. Frankly, widow mine openings are a lot scarier in the hands of better players.
|
Hellbat drops seem to make tvt's quite horrible to watch.
|
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
|
On February 06 2013 23:06 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.
'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to effectively shut it down. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.
|
On February 06 2013 23:00 naastyOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 12:50 Plansix wrote:On February 05 2013 11:25 Pookie Monster wrote:
So much complaining, this game will be worlds better than WOL was at release. The single player alone is worth the 45 bucks to me. i was a high usually top 8 masters in WOL. So far the same in the HOTS beta. I always meched in WOL and i always mech in HOTS. How well i perform at the game hasnt changed very much the strategies are just different and thats pretty much the way its suppose to be. I agree the game still needs some tweaking especially in the late game with mass air units. But the "blizzard fails hard" rhetoric is pretty over the top. Silent you! You are to happy for TEAM LIQUID!!!!!! No one has enjoyed WOL for the nearly 3 years since release. No one!!!!! We have all played the game reluctantly for 3 years because we hate ourselves and wish to suffer endlessly. We are the unhappy section of Esports world, unhappy with the game we are playing, depressed at the success of others games, sad that we cannot play the deep, rich, borderline-fictional play styles we created in our heads. You dare say that you have enjoyed playing for all that time and rarely lost because of poor "design". Clearly your mind was drugged or otherwise affected for a chemical imbalance. Do you not understand the poorly designed trash you have been enjoying for this entire time? How can you be this happy when the game has been "designed" so wrong, removing defenders advantage, extracting attackers advantages and eliminating losers advantage? How could you love a game that does not reward positional and but favors non-positional play?Clearly sir, you have not been reading the forums or listening to the community all this time. If you were, you would know that that the game you have enjoyed and we have talked about for 3 years is trash and no one loves it. This next patch is just a nail in the coffin of a long line of trash from Blizzard. Now they are providing even more scouting and removing decision making from the game. Now we will need to make choices based on far more information that we ever had before, rather than creating ultra safe, passive builds meant to counter a wide variety of all-ins. Disgusted and disappointed. P.S. For the person who is about to post something like "The funny thing is, he is pretty close to the truth": You are everything I hate about the internet /tread. We are in a world of loud cry-babies-overreactors.
It seems that is what the some parts fo TL have become. I had some kid curse me out because he couldn't 1 rax FE any more against early stargate builds, because for some reason he should be able to do a super econ build with all the new units and timings.
|
On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Right now everyone from every race is crying wolf way too much and claiming the game is broken. Give it time people. We have to allow time to figure things out or we will end up with a game just as busted as WoL is, with everyone doing the same builds over and over because everything else has been nerfed out of relevance.
|
On February 06 2013 23:16 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:06 Umpteen wrote:On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing. 'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to deal with. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.
Hellbat is a mineral only unit, there is nothing gas heavy in all of that.
You could argue that there is an initial cost of 300gas for factory/starport/medivac but since Zerg need to expand eary they cannot be expected to throw 300 gas worth of unit at that stage of the game
There were several example of a Zerg being prepared against that kind of attack, with queens and roaches, and still getting obliterated
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.
Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out
What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
|
Hey just noticed something... did he say it takes 100 seconds to get OV speed? It's actually 60 seconds currently.
Looking at this whole paragraph:
HotS has given a lot more tech options to all three races, and we feel scouting is more important than ever. Terran/Protoss already got their scouting buffs, and we felt Zerg could use one too. Keep in mind this isn't as crazy as it sounds because you still need to spend the extra 100/100 resources as well as 100 seconds to get this upgrade in tier 1.
This sounds very strange. If we were closer to April 1st I'd say this is a joke.
"Not as crazy as it sounds" means that not only he thinks this will be useful, he thinks this is borderline overpowered.
My point is, does anyone else wonder how much actual thought is given to this? This post is factually wrong, and the reasoning fails on the most basic level.
If you're a guy in charge of designing the game, and you're patching the burrow upgrade, how can you get the research time wrong? How can you not understand that this is useless? How much time do they really spend coming up with stuff like that?
This is what worries me. In itself, I see nothing wrong in removing the Lair requirement. But good communication is what matters the most at this point. You want players to trust Blizzard, or they will not get into HotS. How can we ask people to trust them when the lead designer writes stuff like that?
|
I don't get why the balance team doesn't want ZvZ to be muta dominated. It's way more dynamic like that and, like TLO is showing in his stream, you can micro mutas like a boss in sc2 too ~
|
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?
Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
