On February 06 2013 11:35 Noocta wrote: I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
You can't kite back against it. Once it's attack starts the range extends, much like a carriers. They're being completely moronic about it. You want people to run away from it then you have to remove the extended range. Otherwise your army is still going to get obliterated.
I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
It's just that Voids have a range slop of 2 (as opposed to most unit 1,) and can attack while moving... I think. Or do they actually have an extended range while charged?
Voids are very good at chasing units, anyway. It's tough to retreat against them although that's what the charge thing would encourage you to do.
(Related to this, I was thinking it could be cool to have them have a speed reduction while charged or something,)
On February 06 2013 11:35 Noocta wrote: I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
You can't kite back against it. Once it's attack starts the range extends, much like a carriers. They're being completely moronic about it. You want people to run away from it then you have to remove the extended range. Otherwise your army is still going to get obliterated.
yes because no one is bad enough to start up the charge before you hit something. And those 2 range the opponent has to run away is death for any armored unit. But if they remove the range extension Voidrays will become horrible vs Terran and Toss in micro situations. I think the way the Voidray attack works is something really interesting and different and gives it alot of utility and should not be lost at any cost, even if people won't use them for 5 more years.
Hots people still use the Voidray horribly, but atleast they get the charge right now. I think they should have just went for a fleetbeacon upgrade that enhances the Voidrays charge. So they become easier to use when the Voidray is massed. Though I always liked that the Voidray lost half of its damage potential when used by a noob. Correct use in professional gaming would create epicness since it would be in no way easy to recreate.
But the hard to use units seem to all share the fate of being made easier to use, because macro units just run over you while you are busy microing your heart out.
It is not a bad thing though, bw showed that a macro centric game can be really entertaining. The thing is in BW they left the micro units in and kept them super strong.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
Too bad you will be caught by force field and everything will die unless the engagement will happen.
On February 06 2013 12:15 ZenithM wrote: I'm sorry, what is this micro trick against charged up Voidray that they keep mentioning? I'm not too familiar with the new VR mechanics (I just know of their new ability with +armor damage on cooldown). Is it just basic pullback micro or is there something else?
I'm aware of the leash range (which the VR always has had), btw, which probably makes any kind of pullback micro quite hard. I know that for exemple in WoL if you let your Viking get hit once by the VR's beam, your viking is pretty much gone :D
Yes, Blizzard bascially want you to pull your army back until the charge is over. This is what blizzard think micro is all about.
Too bad you will be caught by force field and everything will die unless the engagement will happen.
Note that in a world of 'Perfect Engagements' everything is OP.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Please watch this video and say again that Blizzard knows how to balance the game (5:18):
Btw, it's all from single factory.
hahahahaha Great video, thank you sir
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
I quite like the widow mine change, I like any attempt to make mech more viable in TvP. I feel that the +shield damage could have been moved to tanks instead though. (I was thinking blizzard won't have any race specific damage implemented)
And the god damn void ray needs to be fixed. It's the same as immortal sentries all in. You can't always have room to bait charge/FF or micro away. Not to mention void ray don't need energy to charge up and it is damn strong without charge.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
Honestly, don't waste your time. If you played WoW must have noticed the pattern every time there's an expansion / change / nerf / buff :-)
If next month had been the release of BW they'd all be saying the same: "OMG RAN INTO 8 LURKERS AND EVERYTHING DIED OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP BLARRGGGG".
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
All the "specialized damage" is a terrible idea, because it makes the game more complicated than it should be. Buffing the Widow Mine specifically against Protoss will not do much because the Widow Mine isnt an "army unit" and only an assassin type unit ... unless it becomes so good that you can win by mass producing them ... which would be another terrible thing.
On February 06 2013 14:39 Rabiator wrote: All the "specialized damage" is a terrible idea, because it makes the game more complicated than it should be. Buffing the Widow Mine specifically against Protoss will not do much because the Widow Mine isnt an "army unit" and only an assassin type unit ... unless it becomes so good that you can win by mass producing them ... which would be another terrible thing.
Yup. I've been saying this since release. They need to do away with the armor, light, bio, massive, psionic damage bonuses. Small, medium, and large is all bw had and it was much better. It wasn't so much rock > paper > scissors in terms of units. You could make particular things work. Everything kinda came out even in the end depending on how it was microed. In this you know going into a fight if you're going to get destroyed or not based on unit composition.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
8 units that cost the same as a zealot, healed by 2 medivacs :D
I'm literally laughing at how stupid this game is. This is actually amazing that the greatest strategy game and E-sports of all time's sequel.. and then sequel's expansion, is so bad.
This game is so dead :D
I've actually stopped giving a f*** at the current mess that is Starcraft 2. I really like TL, and I might go into DOTA2, but every passing day brings me further away from this stupid game. I'm supposed to go play at a lan in a month, so I should be motivated into playing a few games, but I have not touched neither WoL or HoTS in a few months. It is beyond amazing how they could be this clueless.
It's completely ridiculous how many trolls are on this damn forum. You cant link ONE video and suggest it as the only empirical and substantial evidence. He had barely any roaches and, I'm sorry, a queen should not be the end-all/defend-all unit. if you get caught with your pants down, you fucking lose, end of story. You witnessed 2+ (damn near three, I mean an equivalent amount of marines/marauders would have done just as much damage.) expansions worth of army fly into a base and do damage, yes, that SHOULD happen. (800 in hellbats, 200/200 in medivacs and 150/100 in armory tech) thats a hell of an investment, easily identified with scouting and thus preventable. I wont sit here and coddle the babies all night and remind them that hellbats are slow, and that engagements should always be concise and that the terran likely has no units what so ever defending his base.
They guy who was commentating on the video was actually the zerg in the game and he didn't cry out IMBA, just said it was very difficult to deal with. I'm trying to find ways to deal with this and I think a spine in each mineral line and spore can deal with it pretty nicely. To be honest any sig. nerf to hellbats will make that unit obsolete (just my opinion). If there actually is an issue its the medevac speedboost as it can kind of ignore static defenses. Why should everything that is difficult to hold in the early game be nerfed to oblivion. I love watching starcraft 2 but I don't want spend 2 hours watching a bo3 because every game is a 40 minute turtle-fest ending in 1 a-attack battle of death balls.
EPT
