On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
I could not agree more. I often disagree with the decisions Blizzard makes, but they spend a lot of time and effort developing this game. Blizzard wants Starcraft 2 to be a game that is fun and engaging to watch and play as much as we do.
Its a shame they don't deliver.
I've been waiting for the game to get "fixed" for 3 years and in my time I've only seen them break it even more.
The only real progress I've seen to date was global play.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Please watch this video and say again that Blizzard knows how to balance the game (5:18):
Btw, it's all from single factory.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
Not saying that this is impossible to hold, but I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
On February 06 2013 08:25 Zombo Joe wrote: Its a shame they don't deliver.
I've been waiting for the game to get "fixed" for 3 years and in my time I've only seen them break it even more.
The only real progress I've seen to date was global play.
So, resume from replay isn't good? With such high standards you might as well not wait at all, they won't catch up with you.
I think HotS is heading in a much better direction than WoL. More viable strats, more emphasis on harass. I don't think its perfect, but I do think it has slowly but surely moved in a better direction.
As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
Considering QXC is known for his phenomenal micro, and the fact that controlling two drops simultaneously in real-time while macroing back home at a GM level is reasonably more micro than you've ever done in your life (that goes for almost everyone here) I'd say you're in no position to be condescending toward QXC, nor the poster. Rudely laughing at someone because you can't think of a response to something you don't like while also disrespecting professional players in place of an proper rebuttal doesn't get you very far.
On February 06 2013 08:39 awesomoecalypse wrote: As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
Very well said. If they're going to start giving out +shield adjustments then it definitely should be to the Siege Tank, and not the Window Mine. I also wonder how this will interact with hardened shields.
On February 06 2013 08:39 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think HotS is heading in a much better direction than WoL. More viable strats, more emphasis on harass. I don't think its perfect, but I do think it has slowly but surely moved in a better direction.
As for the latest announcement--buffing mines vs Toss units is an odd decision. I mean, it's one way to make mech more viable vs Protoss, and I suppose Widow Mines at least aren't an a-move unit...
But I would frankly prefer that Siege Tanks get this +damage vs shields buff. Mines as the core mech unit, rather than as a supplement to tanks, doesn't seem right to me.
The bonus shield damage on mines is primary target only, not splash. Because of this it does not make mines the core of the mech, it just allows you to use them to snipe specific units like immortals to help your tank ball against an a-move.
CHOOSING A TARGET WITH MINES: You can but it takes micro. When a unit gets in range of the mine it primes but does not fire for about a second. During this time if you target a different unit it resets the priming and targets the new unit. If you continue to change targets (even to ones out of range) over and over it will never fire. Then when you are ready you can either just stop resetting it and it will launch at the last target you gave it if its in range, or a random target if the target you last selected was out of range.
You can even use this mine hold micro on multiple mines, but it is a little tricky to give them all their own targets when you are ready for them to fire. Also note that while primed mines are visible (but still not targetable without detection) by the enemy. So if he is paying attention he will know you are holding.
Also note that with the normal behaviour of mines 2 mines in range of an overlord will fire 1 at a time until it is dead. Not at the same time. But if you have 2 mines on hold and then target them both at the overlord they will fire at the same time and kill the overlord. Because of this you can one shot units like immortals that normally take multiple mines, but if you are too slow during hold micro all of your held mines may fire at the same unit (eg a settling) and do significantly less damage than you untended. This can be avoided by using hold micro on units which are out side of the mines range.
I do like the other changes, however. Spores getting + bio seems a bit weird, but we'll see. Maybe it can at least buy time to get enough infestors/hydras out?
Sort of happy about the Envision buff. It makes Stargate a bit more viable, might even be enough to entirely skip Robo sometimes. 60 seconds of detection is a looooooooot
Buffing mines vs P is a good idea but i do not think it will make mech tvp more viable tbh for all previous reasons listed everywhere by everyone ever.
Mech tvp has problems against tempests...you end up 200/200 maxed with 15-25 siege tanks and Protoss can end up maxed 200/200 with a huge ball of tempests...tanks don't shoot up...there's an intrinsic problem there. Tempests are too supply efficient in end-game armies.
Then of course there's that tanks damage is pretty bad against everything, and immortals hard counter all of mech.
Also, the longer the game goes the less mines you want because they die pretty easily to anyone low masters and up and supply is better invested in other stuff...but meh, any buff to mech tvp is better than nothing at this point.
I'm usually a blizzard supporter and faithful that they will come through, especially with expansions as they have a track record of releasing excellent expansions that really help their games.
However, as I see these changes I'm slowly losing faith. It seems right now, and I said it earlier, that they are just patching themselves in a circle. Refusing to go back on certain changes, and coming up with solutions that either create new problems or are simply odd/dumb fixes. I mean, spores getting more damage vs. bio to help ZvZ mutas? Really? That is the best idea we have? Not only is it boring, not only does it lack creativity, you are patching the game and changing damage amounts to fix one small instance. I wonder why not bring a unit like the scourge back that had a lot of creative uses and could help counter Mutas and Skytoss?
I think in general they are trying to hard to micro manage every patch and ever slight imbalance instead of just looking at making the game overall more fun, overall more dynamic, overall balanced, and then allow the players and future patches to work out the kinks.
I just felt like with Broodwar more of an emphasis was put on adding units that made the game more fun, adding units that were cool, adding units with unique spells and abilities. Heck the players hardly even knew at the time what would end up being good or bad(nobody used a Dark Archon, or realized the full potential of a lurker at release). It seems like they are trying to make HotS a giant WoL patch, instead of making HotS a way to add all the cool units they didn't get into WoL.
Where has Blizzard gone in terms of creativity and being an innovator? I understand wanting to separate from BW, I get that, but they seem to be going back in time instead of being forward thinking. They are having the same issue with Diablo 3, which has great sales but the end result was not very good. Are they simply realizing that for their bottom line dumbing down the games for a wider audience is the way to go? Maybe that is the case. Sometimes I wish I paid for Battle.Net because maybe they would value the online competitive community more and care less about the box sales and more about longer term health of games.
I will certainly buy HotS and enjoy playing it and I do think they are making some good changes. But I remember when BW came out(Yeah I'm an old gamer) how fun it was to use lurkers, corsairs, marines with medics even. I don't know what about HotS has me excited. Hydra speed? Viper is cool but that is the only new unit I like. Oracle? When I use the Oracle all I can think of is "it's a ship with a freakin' laser beam on it's head" in a Dr. Evil voice. What a dull unit. They had a chance to add 1-2 units for each race that was micro intensive and a lot of fun to play and they just struck out. Tempest fun? An A-move unit that will be impossible to balance... when we already had the carrier which COULD be setup to do the same thing and be more micro intensive, more fun to play, and look cooler?
I don't know, just seems like Blizzard has lost the edge they once had to think outside the box some. Company seems like it would be a boring place to work these days,
Oh wow, I just reread the OP with the updates. I gotta say, some of the stuff feels very weird - not balancewise speaking, just speaking from understandability. mines doing extra vs shields? spores doing extra vs bio? There are too many "armor" types around that simply aren't armor. I wish they would try to fix all of the stuff they are doing with just 2-3 armor types and just drop certain stuff like "+vs psionic", "+vs bio", "+vs mechanical", "+vs shields" from the balance. I believe a new player and casual spectator will absolutly not be able to get a thing that is going on and it will be really hard to get into the game without investing massive amounts of time.
On February 06 2013 07:34 Niska wrote: Lol at everyone who thinks David Kim is not testing all these things. Blizzard spends so much money and time testing every single scenario. Much more than any of you think. Have any of you been to their HQ in California? Probably not. They have weekly meetings going over all of our concerns from their BNET forums to TL. The fact that people just randomely assume they have no idea what they are doing is ignorant. Obviously you like the game enough to post on these forums constantly so don't say they don't know what they are doing or the game is completely unbalanced.
I am not saying the game is balanced completely now but I am confident Blizzard will find a way. Most pro's agree and major organizations like KESPA also agree. So sit on your computer chairs in your comfy rooms and act like you know everything. Just know Blizzard is trying to suit our needs and is actively listening. The more bullshit noob opinions these threads have the worse it is. I thought TeamLiquid was going to address this problem but has not yet and it is aggrivating seeing so much opinion from people who obviously know very little. Stop bandwagoning and try taking emotion out of it and see the truth.
And yet despite all of these "meetings" and money spent on development and research, they remain blissfully unaware of the real problems of the game and manage to make themselves laughing stocks whenever they attempt to discuss anything with the current meta and what might be an issue.
Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
On February 06 2013 10:18 happyness wrote: Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
Yeah, I kinda feel that.. But Archons already do bonus to bio, and the mine attack is a spell so it's kinda like EMP or something doing shield damage.
I'm glad DK and other people at Blizzard are feeling the tempest does too much damage to non massive. I'm not sure if it's just me, but I feel vikings, the one anti air I have that can hit tempests at a decent rate actually lose to tempests unless it's about a 4-1 ratio. It'll be interesting to see what they can do for them and with tempests getting a nerf Carriers should become the core of tossair again.
Also mine getting +to shields is a great, great thing. Mines are "toss" against toss right now and they can't even kill a zealot, that's how awful and pointless it is to even use them. Hopefully with a good buff to shields they might look into giving tank back normal damage to shields eventually if they deem it necessary.
On February 06 2013 10:18 happyness wrote: Having spores do +dmg against bio and mines +dmg against shields feels really icky to me. Maybe the changes could work out for the better, but it certainly takes away from elegant game design.
Yeah, I kinda feel that.. But Archons already do bonus to bio, and the mine attack is a spell so it's kinda like EMP or something doing shield damage.
They do feel a little weird though.
I'd rather the mine do shield penetration than +shield damage...
buffing mines vs p is gonna make mid game much stronger but hardly effect late game, buff tank damage vs shields if you wanna actually buff mech vs toss.
On February 06 2013 09:47 FLuE wrote: I'm usually a blizzard supporter and faithful that they will come through, especially with expansions as they have a track record of releasing excellent expansions that really help their games.
However, as I see these changes I'm slowly losing faith. It seems right now, and I said it earlier, that they are just patching themselves in a circle. Refusing to go back on certain changes, and coming up with solutions that either create new problems or are simply odd/dumb fixes. I mean, spores getting more damage vs. bio to help ZvZ mutas? Really? That is the best idea we have? Not only is it boring, not only does it lack creativity, you are patching the game and changing damage amounts to fix one small instance. I wonder why not bring a unit like the scourge back that had a lot of creative uses and could help counter Mutas and Skytoss?
I think in general they are trying to hard to micro manage every patch and ever slight imbalance instead of just looking at making the game overall more fun, overall more dynamic, overall balanced, and then allow the players and future patches to work out the kinks.
I just felt like with Broodwar more of an emphasis was put on adding units that made the game more fun, adding units that were cool, adding units with unique spells and abilities. Heck the players hardly even knew at the time what would end up being good or bad(nobody used a Dark Archon, or realized the full potential of a lurker at release). It seems like they are trying to make HotS a giant WoL patch, instead of making HotS a way to add all the cool units they didn't get into WoL.
Where has Blizzard gone in terms of creativity and being an innovator? I understand wanting to separate from BW, I get that, but they seem to be going back in time instead of being forward thinking. They are having the same issue with Diablo 3, which has great sales but the end result was not very good. Are they simply realizing that for their bottom line dumbing down the games for a wider audience is the way to go? Maybe that is the case. Sometimes I wish I paid for Battle.Net because maybe they would value the online competitive community more and care less about the box sales and more about longer term health of games.
I will certainly buy HotS and enjoy playing it and I do think they are making some good changes. But I remember when BW came out(Yeah I'm an old gamer) how fun it was to use lurkers, corsairs, marines with medics even. I don't know what about HotS has me excited. Hydra speed? Viper is cool but that is the only new unit I like. Oracle? When I use the Oracle all I can think of is "it's a ship with a freakin' laser beam on it's head" in a Dr. Evil voice. What a dull unit. They had a chance to add 1-2 units for each race that was micro intensive and a lot of fun to play and they just struck out. Tempest fun? An A-move unit that will be impossible to balance... when we already had the carrier which COULD be setup to do the same thing and be more micro intensive, more fun to play, and look cooler?
I don't know, just seems like Blizzard has lost the edge they once had to think outside the box some. Company seems like it would be a boring place to work these days,
I hate people who just talk about SC & BW was at all time the most perfect game ever, when I think they're just mistaking actual facts with just nostalgia for the old days when Starcraft had for most of us this non-competitive flavour (aah the times when BW actually felt like a fun game, thanks to LAN mostly... Where even the most broken shit was just so fun to abuse and noone complained about it).
On February 06 2013 10:55 EleanorRIgby wrote: buffing mines vs p is gonna make mid game much stronger but hardly effect late game, buff tank damage vs shields if you wanna actually buff mech vs toss.
I think a buff in the midgame will be nice. It'll mean you can actually leave your base as mech maybe :p
I've been winning with 6 fact all ins on 2 base and also 3 fact off of one base but my opponents are not exactly amazing as I'm playing Diamond players. Also it'll be a nice buff for mines against skytoss which will help with the anti air maybe.
We're also playing with increasing the single target damage of Widow Mines from 125 to 125 + 35 shields to give it some more strength vs. Protoss.
Pathetic. That's all what they can come up with. All these cheesy fixes, +15 damage vs bio for spors, +35 damage vs shields for mine. These people are really lazy with their "easy out" tweaks.
We're also playing with increasing the single target damage of Widow Mines from 125 to 125 + 35 shields to give it some more strength vs. Protoss.
Pathetic. That's all what they can come up with. All these cheesy fixes, +15 damage vs bio for spors, +35 damage vs shields for mine. These people are really lazy with their "easy out" tweaks.
I like your words, "easy out tweaks".
They probably can come up with "+ 15 damage vs Zerg" and "+35 damage vs Protoss"
I like how David Kim sounds pissed that pro player ain't doing the kitting back micro against charge up Voidray trick. No second thought to read behind my sentence, I just find the idea of him getting angry at that funny. ^^
EPT
