On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
Widow mine buff is cool but i think they need to tone down the hellbats insane dps right now. Also skytoss appears to still be unbeatable, I wish they'd just remove the tempest from the game entirely but a nerf would have to do i guess... damage is as good a place to start as any <3
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
I am not really saying the unit composition is too strong, I just meant it felt too abusive, similar to the blink stalker DT in PvZ, causing a frustrating experience to play against and blizzard will change something about it.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Please watch this video and say again that Blizzard knows how to balance the game (5:18):
Btw, it's all from single factory.
What? Mass queen is no longer a unilateral defense against all aggression?!
The correct response here is roaches and banelings, believe it or not.
He did have roaches actually, they just didn't help. You can't expect zerg to have banelings, roaches and queens ready just to defend some simple mineral-only unit.
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Yes indeed very funny. That zerg did not scout the all in by the terran? Not to include terrible micro by the zerg. As you can see, the attempt to bring overlord speed to tier 1 will help to provide scouting abilities to detect these all in plays.
What he could have done better? I mean 8 healed hellbats are no joke, there is not much you can do tbh.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
That looked completely crazy tbh. He dropped hellbats on top of roaches (which should be hard counter) and killed them all in seconds. Not only hellbats completely nullify zerglings, they even make roaches pretty much useless which are too completely opposite units.
That looked completely crazy tbh. He dropped hellbats on top of roaches (which should be hard counter) and killed them all in seconds. Not only hellbats completely nullify zerglings, they even make roaches pretty much useless which are too completely opposite units.
Have you seen roach drops on stalkers? Welcome to the Aiur side of gameplay
I was just thinking about the Spore buff, instead of in relation to unit strength (as others said enough mutas will be able to snipe the Spores) thinking about how it relates to timings.
Now if you think about it, the Spore buff would mess up the early timings of Mutas, they wouldn't be able to harass easily until they reach more of a critical mass.
Taking that in to consideration, the timings should line up to where you will have more than enough time to transition to Hydras and not only build enough for defense, but get the Hydra Den upgrades done in time to defend the Muta critical mass by the time it gets there. With that, plus being able to be higher in ranged/armor upgrades than the Mutas, and a much higher number of Hydras than Mutas, it may be a viable strategy.
wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
On February 05 2013 03:53 Fuyihken wrote: I'm absolutely shocked that they're not taking the nerf bat to the hellbat (pun most definitely intended.) IMO (and evidenced by the post I made earlier about fast hellbat drops in TvZ) the hellbat seems a little too strong when combined with medivacs right now.
I will say though, I'm absolutely loving the new raven hunter seeker changes. I've started going double tech starport in every matchup because of how good they are now!
Roach/hydra/viper, meet your beeping doom, muahahahah!
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in
On February 05 2013 03:53 Fuyihken wrote: I'm absolutely shocked that they're not taking the nerf bat to the hellbat (pun most definitely intended.) IMO (and evidenced by the post I made earlier about fast hellbat drops in TvZ) the hellbat seems a little too strong when combined with medivacs right now.
I will say though, I'm absolutely loving the new raven hunter seeker changes. I've started going double tech starport in every matchup because of how good they are now!
Roach/hydra/viper, meet your beeping doom, muahahahah!
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
Roach openers are starting to gain in popularity with the safety they provide agaisnt most harassment, and the fact that the counter to Roach openers can be scouted fairly easily.
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in [...].
and the other half would get picked of in the middle of the map by ling bling muta? nydus might work if you get it up, but splitting your forces sounds bad to me
On February 06 2013 17:24 looken wrote: wouldnt that result in a base race? sounds like mass muta vs P. as soon as they leave their base you fly in. donnu if its "fun" to always base race if you go for mutas...
Even leaving half the Hydras back at base should be able to defend the mutas with help of the spores, considering the range + upgrade advantage.
Plus Nydus works pretty well with Hydras nowdays, especially if you toss a few SH in [...].
and the other half would get picked of in the middle of the map by ling bling muta? nydus might work if you get it up, but splitting your forces sounds bad to me
Well, most of the reason Nydus can work a bit better now is you don't need to spawn it directly in their base. You can spawn a little distance away (somewhere htey won't see) and push forward with host/hydra. If I remember correctly CatZ did some similar plays.
10 tempest losing hardcore to corruptors wtf is there "to ´much dmg vs not massive" they shoot to slow to be a danger for a corruptor .. cant agree on this point alot others are true
and its rly true alot of the voidray flame comes from ignorance and not knowing anything on t and z side, saying things like "lol you can charge them and then destroy my marine/hydra/muta etc so easy, not knowing they do NO more dmg charged vs them ...
On February 06 2013 06:17 bobsire wrote: I hate how people say that Blizzard have no idea on what they are doing. The truth is they have a much deeper understanding of the game than any of us. They have numerous professional players that test/give meaningful advice and criticism. The keyword here is 'professional' meaning these players play starcraft 2 as their main job. In addition, their balance team are all high level players (high gm). Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing. Half the people here are complaining that the changes they are making are useless/ deemed stupid, which they are certainly not. I bet half of you don't even play the game (Hots), yet if you do, your probably under diamond, where your input certainly does not contribute from real skill or experience.
HotS is coming along nicely. The expansion is much different than WoL and also very similar at the same time. Yes it is a better game than WoL and will become even more better with time. Nothing is made perfect ,it takes time to refine and polish. Be patient and let the game develop. As of now, the path upon that Hots is travelling is a good one. Balance is becoming increasingly more accurate, where skill is the only variable that allows deviation upon the races. Practice more and stop complaining (to the people who are simply acting like whining little babies).
I hope you're aware that the LEAD balance designer for HOTS is Dustin Browder. I hope you're aware that Dustin Browder is a gold/plat level terran on the NA server. That means that the person with final say on HOTS balance is a gold/plat level player. Blizzard has no clue what they are doing. Do not fool yourself.
I am aware of that. And I m also aware that David Kim is a high level ex professional player. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/David_Kim . The balance department is a team where as they all work together, sure Dustin is gold or whatever, but his expertise is in something else in relation to balance. If it were up to a 'gold level' player wouldn't you see actual ridiculed patches rather than an actual attempt to balance? Like I said, Blizzard knows exactly what they are doing.
Ha Ha Ha
You are funny mate. You know what Dustin Browder calls "Micro"? Turning banshee cloak on/off (seriously).
They give terran a hellbat, which can be healed and flown by super speed medivacs, which rapes all zerglings and drones in seconds and even amazing vs. roaches.
Ha Ha Ha Well hello mr patchzerg. Are you unfamiliar with not having OP queens shut down all openings by your opponent by default? Are you unfamiliar with having to make strategic or tactical decisions other than when to push "F"? The Terran in that video (QXC) went all in with superior tech and professional level micro and nothing more needs to be said. If you want suggestions on how to counter the build try building spines for defense (instead of slow-roach and slow-ling without even connecting the natural with creep).
User was temp banned for this post.
I literally am laughing my ass off that your "professional level micro" response, as dropping Hellbats at two places at once and clicking hold position is actually a micro... :D
I love to see these hilarious posts once in a while, problem is I am seeing too many of them every day.
Considering QXC is known for his phenomenal micro, and the fact that controlling two drops simultaneously in real-time while macroing back home at a GM level is reasonably more micro than you've ever done in your life (that goes for almost everyone here) I'd say you're in no position to be condescending toward QXC, nor the poster. Rudely laughing at someone because you can't think of a response to something you don't like while also disrespecting professional players in place of an proper rebuttal doesn't get you very far.
Yes, I am pretty sure that you know what I'm capable off! I am laughing at response from that guy, not the QXC, never even commented on the QXC's skill level. I am pretty sure that QXC is a great player, but what he has done there wasn't skillful, controlling two drops is what platinum players can do, so please, if you are below platinum, I would understand why it was "skillful" for you.
And what do you mean it doesn't get me very far? That guy got banned for how bad his post was, and I am not surprised that you are defending him and agreeing with him, since you are as biased as you can get for Terran race.
You can't come up with normal response. Every your post is full of bias. You are talking about things you know nothing about, while you are trying to hide your bias by saying that you are playing random. lol
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
On February 06 2013 13:08 ETisME wrote: The problem of hydra is kinda hard to solve: They are pretty good against mech now imo, the dps boost really helps when you are doing some small run bys etc. in ZvP, however, hydra is just horrible. You neither hit that super sweet window before the counters are out, or it is just a horrible unit to have at all parts of later stage of the game.
My results have been the opposite. Hydras are far more useful to me in ZvP than ZvT, unless I happen to have enough Vipers to keep a constant blinding cloud up vs Terran. Hydra/Host/Corruptor is a very strong composition vs Protoss.
But honestly, the Hydra problem is just the fact that you need so many upgrades to make them viable. I don't believe they need to be stronger (stat-wise) at all. But for a T2 unit that needs ranged upgrades + 2 unique upgrades + other units to protect them + some support units, it's quite a big investment before they are fully useful.
If they combined both of the Hydra upgrades, even at an increased cost, I believe they would be perfect. It just takes too much time to make them viable, by the time they are out after a tech switch and viable there is so much time for your opponent to prepare that your opponent could already have their counters out - that's the real problem. This is compounded by the fact that Zerg has to get so many more upgrades to be fully viable since the Hydra compositions involve many different units.
I mainly use Ultra ling viper hydra in ZvT against bio and maybe that's why I have different experience than you.
I know of the hydra/host/corruptor composition and it's really strong. The problem is that I don't think blizzard will leave it as it is for this unit composition. The unit composition feels a bit too abusive to stay in the game (you are sniping off observer so that he can't engage properly). Reminds me of blink stalkers and DTs composition before infestors went more viable. Hydras are too weak in all other unit composition imo
I disagree. I honestly don't see how they could fix it if it does end up being a problem. The thing is not many zergs do this (on streams I see nobody do this). It's strong, but I don't think it'll be necessarily imbalanced. If every zerg was doing this and toss was getting smashed every game I might agree it was to strong, but there's got to be a reason no zergs are doing this at the pro level.
I see TLO go swarmhosts, but he goes super super swarmhosts no corruptors and he's the only other zerg other then me who utilizes swarmhosts that I have seen anyway.
I am not really saying the unit composition is too strong, I just meant it felt too abusive, similar to the blink stalker DT in PvZ, causing a frustrating experience to play against and blizzard will change something about it.
Its no more abusive than corsair/dt was in PvZ in BW. And that build was not seen in any negative light for using the same tequnique.
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
I think you missed the video where queens + a good amount of roaches get obliterated by a 8hellbat drop
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
When defending against drop you have to move a lot, with medivac speed+auto-clump in the mix, you cant maintain a split everywhere, dont tell me anyone does
Also, even when clumped, that wasnt even close, the terran killed everything and lost nothing, there is nothing the zerg can do to defend that
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. Add on top of this that the Hellbats trade well against Roaches/Queens in the early stages of the game and you've got a situation where Terrans open up the game with a guaranteed early advantage against Zerg. Play against any GM level Terran who is currently abusing this strategy and show me there's a cost-effective way of dealing with it and I'll happily change my tune.
tldr; Roaches and Queens don't kill Hellbat drops quickly enough to cost-effectively deal with the drop in the early game.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote: qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.
What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.
I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.
He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.
The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)
As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.
Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.
Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.
Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.
Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.
EPT
