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On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.  Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well
I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
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On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:16 Novacute wrote:On February 06 2013 23:06 Umpteen wrote:On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing. 'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to deal with. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from. Hellbat is a mineral only unit, there is nothing gas heavy in all of that. You could argue that there is an initial cost of 300gas for factory/starport/medivac but since Zerg need to expand eary they cannot be expected to throw 300 gas worth of unit at that stage of the game There were several example of a Zerg being prepared against that kind of attack, with queens and roaches, and still getting obliterated Show nested quote +Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance. Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now
How about we give the strategy more than a week or two? I personally think it's too strong but definitely not for the same reasons.
If you want to play aggressive with hellbats, you sink a ton of gas: 200 for factories, 100 for starport, 100 for armory, 100 or 150 for reactors, and 100 or 200 on medivacs, which delays your eco considerably. The benefit for the terran isn't spending minerals for damage but rather that they spend a lot of gas on nearly all the tech they'll ever need. But they must do massive damage to not be behind.
The reason why this sounds viable is that the terran can tech to mech while forcing the zerg to slow down eco and to stay at home. So, it reduces how vulnerable the terran is before mech is up and it doesn't allow the Z to take 5 bases with BLs out before the terran is able to move out (Hack v Stephano, Mvp v Soo).
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On February 06 2013 23:39 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
Honestly, the Swarm Host is already showing a ton of potential for skilled use. There are a few pros who're already figuring them out--they keep them moving nearly all the time, only burrowing periodically to release locusts. By spreading out and kiting, it becomes incredibly difficult and frustrating for a lot of enemy compositions to catch them, and their cost efficiency becomes very high.
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On February 06 2013 23:39 Novacute wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in. Exactly. There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround. I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc. What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees. I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down. He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop. The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc) As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail. Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1. Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations. Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though. Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case. Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining. Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats? Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
People should watch the more creative players like TLO and Grubby so see what can be done with the game. I saw Grubby destroy a blob of 14 infestors with a flock of Phoinex, which I didn't think was possible. It was also totally awesome to watch them come in from two angles. A lot of the pros don't go through the work of experimenting with the new units, which is hard and causes you to lose a lot. Players like Grubby and TLO do and its totally awesome to see the crazy stuff they do.
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Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
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On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Hellbat drops do concern me in the fact that they may be really difficult to “dislodge” in a reasonable manner. Stalkers is not great to fight for a straight up fight against a non-armored unit and zealots are a bad solution. That said, hellbats are slow as shit and avoiding them is easy enough. Also, dealing with early drops as protoss in WoL is mostly about making sure they cannot land.
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On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.
The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
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On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.
TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
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Just gotta say... if I'm a new player coming to Starcraft, and I see in the description of spore crawlers that they have bonus vs bio (air), it would seem kinda weird to me, because it would never occur to me this whole thing is only added because of ZvZ and I'd search everywhere for those bio air units of terran and protoss. xD
They might as well make the description say: "bonus vs Zerg", lol.
Also, I was kinda excited to see HotS ZvZ resemble BW ZvZ, but oh well, I guess one gets tired of mutas and lings all day.
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Canada13412 Posts
On February 07 2013 01:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here. The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units. TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
The biggest problem is that normally you want zealots to deal with drops since you are using gas on upgrades and AoE.
With needing to make stalkers early you cut into this really hard. In addition, there is the problem that speed medivacs just fly past everything. Even if you have prepositioned units, with the longer blink research time you wont have it in time to really respond to drops well enough. And speed medivacs can drop all the hellbats spaced very well to kill lots of probes.
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Spore + damage vs Bio???
Mine + damage vs Shields????????
So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.
In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.
Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
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On February 07 2013 01:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.
TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
Hellbats in the early game can be beaten with Oracle openings, they're light so Oracles slaughter them. 1 gate expo stargate Oracle openings are also very safe right now due to pulsar beam two-shotting Marines without combat shields, meaning you can defend stuff like 2 rax extremely easily. They cost a lot of gas, but if you open on Oracles you don't need to make a bunch of Sentries, so you have the gas.
The problem is when Terran gets combat shields the Oracles become useless, while the Hellbats don't. Midgame Hellbat drops are far more problematic, you can't really do anything about them. Even if you have cannons down or Stalkers in place, they can just ignore them and drop on your probes.
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On February 07 2013 01:17 Psychlone wrote:
Spore + damage vs Bio???
Mine + damage vs Shields????????
So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.
In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.
Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
This is totally incorrect and yet another one of the insane myths of BW. BW had tons of weird damage amounts and values that took place under the hood. Concussive damage, explosive damage and all other damage types that did weird things to specific units. If anything, BWs damage system was less upfront with what it was doing and harder to follow.
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i wish that people could be unbiased, or at least less
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit or make the minimap bigger for you. same thing for the protoss air units as well, i have been able to crush protoss wihtout even making anti air units. people have this retarded one-dimensional view of this game where 'my army beats his, then i win GG wheee'
no sorry, you have to kill his buildings, that's it
you do not have to kill the protoss air army, recall does not make u invulnerable to base trades, fungals and spores can win you a base trade in many situations. if you are so retarded that you do not notice protoss massing air units, you are so bad he didn't have to use them to defend your pressure and you shouldn't be expecting to win this game anyways. i'm serious, it makes no sense to complain of extremely expensive air units when you can just stack larvae/infestors and base trade with tons of lings/ultras/etc that just never die. why even build anti air? its pointless, protoss cannont win in the base trade if zerg plays correctly..
edit: also, there is no problem with widow mines as people claim, they do not need bonus dmg to shields. right now the unit that most needs this is the siege tank. oracles are slightly too strong early game (sorry, its true, esp when al i can have at the timing of oracle 1 (proxied) is 5 marines) when i can literally not make enough units to stop your first oracle, there is a problem with how quickly chrono can produce these units and how much dmg they do to light. i would like to see their damage decerased drastically, but returned with time warp. lets reward people for timewarping + storming. that shit is hard to manage. instead, its' now on the MSC and has limited utility, and weirdly detection is back for the stargates. i feel that zerg is in a great place, players are simply not using their new units. swarm hosts are extremely good, but of course no one will admit
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On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here. Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight. The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...
Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.
So I don't know what you're talking about.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit
Hellions have 30 initial damage in a wide AOE cone and medivac speed boost prevents you from being able to pull workers away. If you split them, you will most likely lose 2-5x as many as you would compared to getting dropped by marines of equal value.
In terms of workers lost from protoss perspective, a medivac with a bunch of stimless marines early game is not scary at all. He cant even catch the probes to kill any of them because he will only scratch a few when he is dropping the marines. Stim + medivacs, terran is either super all in (1 base) or we are talking 10 minute mark or so, there are much better tools to deal with it. Later in the game you can just have 10+ warpgates and half a dozen cannons/templar if there is a lot of drop threat, its a non issue.
Its incredibly easy to lose 15 workers to medivac+battlehellion drop when terran loses nothing, though, in comparison.
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On February 07 2013 02:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here. Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight. The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere. Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat... Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range. So I don't know what you're talking about.
I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.
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I'm I alone with this opinion or does anybody else think that widow mines are too powerful. I mean I haven't played tonnes, but once they manage to get mines into your mineral line you're fucked and can gg straight away. I find it pretty hard to scout for it as well. I feel like you're forced in TvT to go reaper and widow mines in the early game to do damage, The bionic mix is not really able to defend all angles on the new maps. Too many open spaces and drop positions.
Maybe I need to play more and find a way around it, but so far I think the widow mine is way too strong.
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On February 07 2013 02:43 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here. Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight. The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere. Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat... Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range. So I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.
My bad. I thought Roach had 1.5 attack speed (that's marauders)
9dps (range of 2) vs 8dps (range of 4 or 5) is very lopsided indeed. Sorry.
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On February 06 2013 20:50 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.
I think you missed the video where queens + a good amount of roaches get obliterated by a 8hellbat drop Show nested quote +
Exactly.
There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.
When defending against drop you have to move a lot, with medivac speed+auto-clump in the mix, you cant maintain a split everywhere, dont tell me anyone does Also, even when clumped, that wasnt even close, the terran killed everything and lost nothing, there is nothing the zerg can do to defend that
So you've seen Life, Leenock, DRG, Hyun, Stephano, etc. try to deal with it and they've all failed? Perhaps it is problematic but I would hope that Blizzard wouldn't nerf a unit because random GM and masters level players have trouble dealing with it.
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EPT
