• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 04:20
CEST 10:20
KST 17:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202550RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams4Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Season 1 - Final Week The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL20 Preliminary Maps Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [Update] ShieldBattery: 1v1 Fastest Support!
Tourneys
CSL Xiamen International Invitational [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 640 users

David Kim on potential beta changes (Feb 4th,2013) - Page 25

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
Post a Reply
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 36 Next All
Novacute
Profile Joined September 2011
Australia313 Posts
February 06 2013 14:39 GMT
#481
On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.


Exactly.

There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.


I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.


What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.


I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.


He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.

The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)

As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.

Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.

Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.

Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.

Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.



Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.

Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?


Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well


I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
February 06 2013 14:54 GMT
#482
On February 06 2013 23:24 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2013 23:16 Novacute wrote:
On February 06 2013 23:06 Umpteen wrote:
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.


Exactly.

There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.


I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.


What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.


I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.


He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.

The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)

As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.

Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.

Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.

Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.

Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.



Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.

Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?


You're still missing the same point. Yes, Zergs can deal with the attack. But if the attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran, there's something wrong. It should never be the case that the best response to a strategy still leaves you behind. I'm not saying it is the case here, just that it's the point you're missing.


'The attack is guaranteed to be good for the Terran' is primarily due to the lack of exposure and knowledge obtained through scouting the particular build order. I'm not saying people are bad, it just takes time for players to adapt to the pressure. The attack also represents a gas heavy investment which in order to deal with it, require some form of investment other than queens to deal with. Just like dealing with oracles, we need spores. In this case, a handful of roaches with good map awareness is sufficient enough. Oh and overlords are paramount in seeing where the medivacs are approaching from.


Hellbat is a mineral only unit, there is nothing gas heavy in all of that.
You could argue that there is an initial cost of 300gas for factory/starport/medivac but since Zerg need to expand eary they cannot be expected to throw 300 gas worth of unit at that stage of the game
There were several example of a Zerg being prepared against that kind of attack, with queens and roaches, and still getting obliterated

Show nested quote +
Exactly! We saw new timings tons in WoL but after some time and a little strategizing, they got figured out. The roach max is one example. When it first came out it looked borderline impossible to hold without either losing your third or losing your entire army but after a while people started figuring out how to hold it and soon it was essentially gone. These hellbat drops will probably be the same deal, after people start figuring out how to defend them they will go away. If in a few months they are still rampant and winning Terran too many games, then maybe they should be looked at for balance.


Every zerg was telling Protoss to build Immortal, and every protoss was still thinking that immortal had still 5 range or some shit, but yeah, some thing got figured out
What about the thing that didnt got figured out ? What about 1 supply roach ? It's pretty much the same issue as the Hellbat right now


How about we give the strategy more than a week or two? I personally think it's too strong but definitely not for the same reasons.

If you want to play aggressive with hellbats, you sink a ton of gas: 200 for factories, 100 for starport, 100 for armory, 100 or 150 for reactors, and 100 or 200 on medivacs, which delays your eco considerably. The benefit for the terran isn't spending minerals for damage but rather that they spend a lot of gas on nearly all the tech they'll ever need. But they must do massive damage to not be behind.

The reason why this sounds viable is that the terran can tech to mech while forcing the zerg to slow down eco and to stay at home. So, it reduces how vulnerable the terran is before mech is up and it doesn't allow the Z to take 5 bases with BLs out before the terran is able to move out (Hack v Stephano, Mvp v Soo).
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
awesomoecalypse
Profile Joined August 2010
United States2235 Posts
February 06 2013 14:55 GMT
#483
On February 06 2013 23:39 Novacute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.


Exactly.

There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.


I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.


What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.


I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.


He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.

The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)

As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.

Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.

Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.

Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.

Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.



Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.

Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?


Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well


I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.


Honestly, the Swarm Host is already showing a ton of potential for skilled use. There are a few pros who're already figuring them out--they keep them moving nearly all the time, only burrowing periodically to release locusts. By spreading out and kiting, it becomes incredibly difficult and frustrating for a lot of enemy compositions to catch them, and their cost efficiency becomes very high.
He drone drone drone. Me win. - ogsMC
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 06 2013 14:58 GMT
#484
On February 06 2013 23:39 Novacute wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 06 2013 23:36 BigAsia wrote:
On February 06 2013 22:50 ChromeBallz wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:40 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:23 Plansix wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:19 spirates wrote:
On February 06 2013 21:05 ShamW0W wrote:
On February 06 2013 18:58 Qikz wrote:
On February 06 2013 13:03 EleanorRIgby wrote:
qxc dropped all the hellbats around the roaches for maximum splash and it was a nice move but you shouldn't leave your roaches in a ball like that when defending vs hellbats, after that it was just units trickling in.


Exactly.

There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.


I think people who are defending the current state of Hellbat drops are missing the point. You're guaranteed to have your first drop be cost-effective against a Zerg opponent, even if the strategy is scouted. Pulling Drones isn't free, building a static spine isn't free, building an early Roach Warren isn't free etc. etc.


What are you for real? Iam sorry if you cant drone until 60 without a single attack unti anymore. Yes you have to actually build attacking units to defend an attack, shocking I know. Just like I've had to spend minerals on bunkers against a early zerg or toss attack, how I need to cut scvs to get the freaking engineering bay just so i can spend 300-400 minerals early game to help against oracles or banshees.


I agree with this guy. Any protoss that has defended drops on two bases know this. Its one of the first thinks you learned in WoL, respect drops. I also think zergs have more than enough tools to deal with Hellbat drops at this time. People need to get used to new timings, so if you play like you did in WoL, you are going to get caught with your pants down.


He completely snipped out the section about cost effectiveness and roaches/queens killing hellbats quickly enough to negate the cost efficiency of the drop.

The problem isn't that "zerg doesn't have enough in their arsenal to deal with drops in the early game'. Queens and Spores can do a fine job of shutting that down, and have been shutting down standard hellion and bio drops for a long time. The problem is that, even if you scout and react properly (assuming that the proper reaction is more queens and roaches) the Terran is still going to have a cost-effective drop by either forcing out more static defense, drone pulls, or just trading efficiently enough with roach/queen. It's not just the efficiency of Hellbats either, it's the synergy with Emergency Thrusters that's the issue that early in the game. (armory finishes ~6minutes iirc)

As I said in the snipped part of the post though, if there's a replay of a Zerg effectively dealing with a GM level Terran using this I'll happily change my tune. I'm trying to solve the strategy with variations of my own (pool before hatch into quick roach warren, 6 queens etc., trying whatever might not be considered 'standard' at this point) but so far, against Terrans who actually know what they're doing, it's to no avail.

Edit: On the main topic of the proposed changes, I don't think OL tier 1 speed will do much at that cost/time as I'd rather just sac an overlord or 2 and save the gas in tier 1.

Spore change is interesting, not sure if it changes ZvZ but we shall see. I've seen more people trying Roach/Hydra these days with some success so maybe it'll be the tipping point where the matchup feels like there's variations.

Oracle Envision change seems fair enough, 60 seconds of detection is quite a bit though.

Widow Mine in TvP change looks like the number was chosen very specifically but I'm not sure what it's meant to combat. If Stalker didn't have armor it'd now 1-shot Stalkers but afaik that's not the case.



Baneling bust, 6-pool, speedlings (even vs hellions), mass roach, muta harass etc - Terran now has a viable option in the early midgame against zerg, whereas otherwise there's nothing except possibly some banshee harass, Zerg has had it far too easy containing terrans in WoL, usually being able to get up to 3 bases very quickly (especially on maps where the third is easy to defend even earlygame) without the terran being able to do anything about it. Hellbats are finally a way to shut down the easy eco a zerg has had for so long. At 6 minutes you can have quite a lot of units up of your own - Originally the fast expo was because the zerg had a fairly easy time defending (depending on a bunker rush), with the queen patch this turned into a fast third while still easily defendable. Now that terrans finally have a way to punish zerg for this super greedy opening (and yes it's greedy, not "necessary" as many zerg would have you believe), zerg players start complaining.

Doesn't seem to occur to anyone that you can just shoot the medivac with your queens and that roaches (iirc) have 1 more range than hellbats?


Actually just watched Dragon's stream and he did an 2 medivac hellion drop and tlo defended it pretty well


I'm also seeing alot of swarm hosts being utilised in very cost efficient ways by TLO. This makes me excited for the release of Hots.


People should watch the more creative players like TLO and Grubby so see what can be done with the game. I saw Grubby destroy a blob of 14 infestors with a flock of Phoinex, which I didn't think was possible. It was also totally awesome to watch them come in from two angles. A lot of the pros don't go through the work of experimenting with the new units, which is hard and causes you to lose a lot. Players like Grubby and TLO do and its totally awesome to see the crazy stuff they do.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Baum
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Germany1010 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-06 15:02:55
February 06 2013 15:00 GMT
#485
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.
I want to be with those who share secret things or else alone.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 06 2013 15:13 GMT
#486
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.


Hellbat drops do concern me in the fact that they may be really difficult to “dislodge” in a reasonable manner. Stalkers is not great to fight for a straight up fight against a non-armored unit and zealots are a bad solution. That said, hellbats are slow as shit and avoiding them is easy enough. Also, dealing with early drops as protoss in WoL is mostly about making sure they cannot land.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
February 06 2013 15:49 GMT
#487
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.


Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.

The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
Necro)Phagist(
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada6644 Posts
February 06 2013 16:02 GMT
#488
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.

The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.

TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.
"Are you talking to me? Because your authority is not recognized in fort kick ass!"" ||Park Jung Suk|| |MC|HerO|HyuN|
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
February 06 2013 16:14 GMT
#489
Just gotta say... if I'm a new player coming to Starcraft, and I see in the description of spore crawlers that they have bonus vs bio (air), it would seem kinda weird to me, because it would never occur to me this whole thing is only added because of ZvZ and I'd search everywhere for those bio air units of terran and protoss. xD

They might as well make the description say: "bonus vs Zerg", lol.

Also, I was kinda excited to see HotS ZvZ resemble BW ZvZ, but oh well, I guess one gets tired of mutas and lings all day.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
February 06 2013 16:15 GMT
#490
On February 07 2013 01:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.

The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.

TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.


The biggest problem is that normally you want zealots to deal with drops since you are using gas on upgrades and AoE.

With needing to make stalkers early you cut into this really hard. In addition, there is the problem that speed medivacs just fly past everything. Even if you have prepositioned units, with the longer blink research time you wont have it in time to really respond to drops well enough. And speed medivacs can drop all the hellbats spaced very well to kill lots of probes.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Psychlone
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada90 Posts
February 06 2013 16:17 GMT
#491
Spore + damage vs Bio???

Mine + damage vs Shields????????

So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.

In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.

Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!
Xequecal
Profile Joined October 2010
United States473 Posts
February 06 2013 16:20 GMT
#492
On February 07 2013 01:02 Necro)Phagist( wrote:
The only thing I think needs to be done with the hellbats(From a Protoss POV) is drop the bio tag so they don't get healed by medivacs, they can survive way to long with the medivac drop in the base against lacking early defences. Stalkers take forever to kill them anyway and zealots are useless. Make it so they can't be healed and I think it would be okay, they would still be very viable as they dominate mineral lines and medivac speed boost helps drops actually land against pre positioned units.

TLDR: Get rid of Bio tag on Hell bats, stop them from being healed and it will be balanced nicely imo.


Hellbats in the early game can be beaten with Oracle openings, they're light so Oracles slaughter them. 1 gate expo stargate Oracle openings are also very safe right now due to pulsar beam two-shotting Marines without combat shields, meaning you can defend stuff like 2 rax extremely easily. They cost a lot of gas, but if you open on Oracles you don't need to make a bunch of Sentries, so you have the gas.

The problem is when Terran gets combat shields the Oracles become useless, while the Hellbats don't. Midgame Hellbat drops are far more problematic, you can't really do anything about them. Even if you have cannons down or Stalkers in place, they can just ignore them and drop on your probes.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 06 2013 17:00 GMT
#493
On February 07 2013 01:17 Psychlone wrote:
Spore + damage vs Bio???

Mine + damage vs Shields????????

So basically, what they're telling us is they're unable to balance the game and have to rely in ridiculous gimmicks to play god over the metagame.

In the Brood War days, they never changed the basic stats of units from the original game. They only added upgrades to make them more useful later, and they never had to sink so low in trying to balance it out.

Blizz, you're not Gandalf, you're conjurers of cheap tricks!


This is totally incorrect and yet another one of the insane myths of BW. BW had tons of weird damage amounts and values that took place under the hood. Concussive damage, explosive damage and all other damage types that did weird things to specific units. If anything, BWs damage system was less upfront with what it was doing and harder to follow.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
c0sm0naut
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1229 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-02-06 17:17:25
February 06 2013 17:13 GMT
#494
i wish that people could be unbiased, or at least less

i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit or make the minimap bigger for you. same thing for the protoss air units as well, i have been able to crush protoss wihtout even making anti air units. people have this retarded one-dimensional view of this game where 'my army beats his, then i win GG wheee'

no sorry, you have to kill his buildings, that's it

you do not have to kill the protoss air army, recall does not make u invulnerable to base trades, fungals and spores can win you a base trade in many situations. if you are so retarded that you do not notice protoss massing air units, you are so bad he didn't have to use them to defend your pressure and you shouldn't be expecting to win this game anyways. i'm serious, it makes no sense to complain of extremely expensive air units when you can just stack larvae/infestors and base trade with tons of lings/ultras/etc that just never die. why even build anti air? its pointless, protoss cannont win in the base trade if zerg plays correctly..

edit: also, there is no problem with widow mines as people claim, they do not need bonus dmg to shields. right now the unit that most needs this is the siege tank. oracles are slightly too strong early game (sorry, its true, esp when al i can have at the timing of oracle 1 (proxied) is 5 marines) when i can literally not make enough units to stop your first oracle, there is a problem with how quickly chrono can produce these units and how much dmg they do to light. i would like to see their damage decerased drastically, but returned with time warp. lets reward people for timewarping + storming. that shit is hard to manage. instead, its' now on the MSC and has limited utility, and weirdly detection is back for the stargates. i feel that zerg is in a great place, players are simply not using their new units. swarm hosts are extremely good, but of course no one will admit
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
February 06 2013 17:23 GMT
#495
On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.


Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.

The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.


Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...

Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.

So I don't know what you're talking about.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20285 Posts
February 06 2013 17:23 GMT
#496
i play all of the races, and i am somewhat biased,but there are people in here complaining of helion drops like they are somehow different than a drop with MM early on?its the same thing. just because you are too retardd to pull the workers on time and you lose some to splash doesn't mean we should nerf this unit


Hellions have 30 initial damage in a wide AOE cone and medivac speed boost prevents you from being able to pull workers away. If you split them, you will most likely lose 2-5x as many as you would compared to getting dropped by marines of equal value.

In terms of workers lost from protoss perspective, a medivac with a bunch of stimless marines early game is not scary at all. He cant even catch the probes to kill any of them because he will only scratch a few when he is dropping the marines. Stim + medivacs, terran is either super all in (1 base) or we are talking 10 minute mark or so, there are much better tools to deal with it. Later in the game you can just have 10+ warpgates and half a dozen cannons/templar if there is a lot of drop threat, its a non issue.

Its incredibly easy to lose 15 workers to medivac+battlehellion drop when terran loses nothing, though, in comparison.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Ramiz1989
Profile Joined July 2012
12124 Posts
February 06 2013 17:43 GMT
#497
On February 07 2013 02:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.


Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.

The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.


Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...

Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.

So I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.
"I've been to hell and back, and back to hell…and back. This time, I've brought Hell back with me."
tino
Profile Joined March 2012
Germany21 Posts
February 06 2013 17:46 GMT
#498
I'm I alone with this opinion or does anybody else think that widow mines are too powerful. I mean I haven't played tonnes, but once they manage to get mines into your mineral line you're fucked and can gg straight away. I find it pretty hard to scout for it as well. I feel like you're forced in TvT to go reaper and widow mines in the early game to do damage, The bionic mix is not really able to defend all angles on the new maps. Too many open spaces and drop positions.

Maybe I need to play more and find a way around it, but so far I think the widow mine is way too strong.
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
February 06 2013 17:48 GMT
#499
On February 07 2013 02:43 Ramiz1989 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2013 02:23 Thieving Magpie wrote:
On February 07 2013 00:49 Alpina wrote:
On February 07 2013 00:00 Baum wrote:
Of all the races I think Zerg has the least right to complain about early hellbat drops since the answer is not that far off from what you want to do anyway getting additional queens as you normally would and adding some roaches is very doable. It's not like a Zerg is going to fall behind from this when a terran is teching up to a starport and armory before getting an expansion up. I think TvT and TvP are a much bigger issue here.


Well queens take ages to kill hellbats due to their non existant damage, hence hellbats are pretty good against queens even in straight up fight.

The biggest problem here is medivac speed, because they come in few seconds out of nowhere.


Queens have equal DPS as a Roach, Roach has slightly higher DPS than a Hellbat, Queens have higher DPS than a Hellbat...

Mathematically. Queens on creep are also faster, have heals of their own, hand have double the range.

So I don't know what you're talking about.

I don't know where did you get that from, Roach attack speed is 2, and damage is 16, Hellbats attack speed is 2, and damage is 18, I can't see how 16>18.


My bad. I thought Roach had 1.5 attack speed (that's marauders)

9dps (range of 2) vs 8dps (range of 4 or 5) is very lopsided indeed. Sorry.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
The_Darkness
Profile Joined December 2011
United States910 Posts
February 06 2013 17:57 GMT
#500
On February 06 2013 20:50 Protosnake wrote:
Show nested quote +

I'm fairly sure that the entire hellbat thing is just zergs who haven't figured out that it's now a bad idea to rely on just queens and one or two spines untill 8 minutes. I really hope they don't think about nerfing the hellbat untill zerg start coming up with new stuff.


I think you missed the video where queens + a good amount of roaches get obliterated by a 8hellbat drop

Show nested quote +

Exactly.

There's no way that would have happened had the zerg been more spread and QXC micro'd that drop perfectly to get the perfect surround.


When defending against drop you have to move a lot, with medivac speed+auto-clump in the mix, you cant maintain a split everywhere, dont tell me anyone does

Also, even when clumped, that wasnt even close, the terran killed everything and lost nothing, there is nothing the zerg can do to defend that


So you've seen Life, Leenock, DRG, Hyun, Stephano, etc. try to deal with it and they've all failed? Perhaps it is problematic but I would hope that Blizzard wouldn't nerf a unit because random GM and masters level players have trouble dealing with it.
To be is to be the value of a bound variable.
Prev 1 23 24 25 26 27 36 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 40m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 1591
Hyuk 320
Leta 304
ToSsGirL 168
Zeus 127
Dewaltoss 116
JulyZerg 51
sorry 45
Sacsri 32
soO 25
[ Show more ]
NaDa 23
ajuk12(nOOB) 22
ivOry 1
Britney 0
Dota 2
XcaliburYe216
BananaSlamJamma114
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K572
Other Games
ceh9605
Happy167
Fuzer 107
SortOf97
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1246
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Sammyuel 44
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt736
Other Games
• WagamamaTV162
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
1h 40m
Reynor vs Zoun
Solar vs SHIN
Classic vs ShoWTimE
Cure vs Rogue
Esports World Cup
1d 2h
OSC
1d 5h
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Online Event
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.