|
This thread is intended to be an idea of how we can get the most out of the new siege tank buff(Trust me, I am very mad at this change, I am not endorsing it with this thread.) But regardless the buff does open a lot of doors early game that could be potentially helpful. I can also see the new hell bats being particulararly good in the early game with there new damage buff. One slight problem mech was having was that people were way to defensive with it and in return the protoss got a very sweet setup early on and was able to snowball its self out of control. So this patch may help us get further with mech(but I doubt it will make it viable) so its still an interesting idea to entertain.
Right now I am thinking of some dual fact builds that could lead to some early pushes while still expoing behind them.
One problem with any Factory build in the past was that you always had to add a 2nd gas at the start of your factory. Otherwise you would not be able to research siege and build a tank at the same time. Now with the new patch, you can easily skip this second gas and still get your tank out that already is pre packaged with siege. The new possibiltys here are pretty good. You can still get the second gas and have a ton of extra gas towards an early Raven or a second factory. Or you can skip the second gas and get an expo faster.
Having a faster early game development can lead to some very interesting timings that can help slow down your Toss opponent from snowballing out of control. Which is a big problem we are currently seeing any mech user face in Hots currently.
What are your guys thoughts?
|
The raven and hellbat changes are actually a bigger deal as i may actually be able to engage an Air heavy Toss with Thor Raven Viking, and i can do more damage to Archon/immortal/zealot armies.
|
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats!
|
On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats!
Yeah I agree, but tanks are quite good vs sentries too.
How is it, Hellbats require armory right?
I guess no siege mode upgrade means that we can spend that gas on an early armory.
I'm thinking of opening 1 rax expand or 16 gas into 2 factories with a reactored rax.
Make marines x2 to deal with MsC and other crap and then swap it to make hellbats when armory is done.
I don't know. It could work out as I can imagine that the timings are quite neat.
I think hellbats still have the bio tag tho.
|
United States4883 Posts
Been playing a few games with the new hellbat...wow, zealots don't even exist with these things. Hellbats are WAY strong now. Only issue is that they're even stronger paired with bio than with mech. Can't see why any terran would go mech in TvP when all of bio's problems just got solved.
|
On January 10 2013 09:32 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats! Yeah I agree, but tanks are quite good vs sentries too. How is it, Hellbats require armory right? I guess no siege mode upgrade means that we can spend that gas on an early armory. I'm thinking of opening 1 rax expand or 16 gas into 2 factories with a reactored rax. Make marines x2 to deal with MsC and other crap and then swap it to make hellbats when armory is done. I don't know. It could work out as I can imagine that the timings are quite neat. I think hellbats still have the bio tag tho.
Yea,
Alot of people arent taking the hell bat buff into consideration.
They now do 30 damage to zealots right out of the factory without pre ingnitor right out of the factory. I know the aoe got nerfed, but at early stages of the game the direct damage will be more favorable than the aoe. This also makes hell bats better vs stalkers which is a nice buff as well.
Right now I am thinking of a Raven(For PDD)+Tank+Hellbat 2 base push. You would bring 1-3 scvs along the way to lay turrets down just like in BW to stop Air units/Obs. If the toss goes early air then you just delay the push and add some vikings. The idea would be to challenge the third of the Protoss.
|
Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras.
|
United States4883 Posts
Ravens got a huge buff with the fixed seeker missile. In my opinion, the new seeker missile is how it should have originally been designed. Works really great in the midgame as well as into the lategame in all the matchups. It makes it worth it to get 1-2 ravens early on for not only mobile detection, but a strong AoE spell.
|
Played my first TvP, and actually did decent damage with a two fact build, then of course got rolled late game because this patch does ZERO for actually making mech work past early game rofl
|
You guys are neglecting ghost mech earlier. It ends up being quite a bit easier to fight immortals with tanks since the extra gas you saved can go into a ghost academy or starport earlier to fight oracles.
|
Hellbats are insanelly good right now. As some other said, zealots do not work anymore in TvP with current numbers.
Hellbats are pretty similar to roaches right now. Low cost, masseable (reactor), tanky, good mobility and both shut down zealots hard. Oh and both have (hellbats after this patch) an horrible 1a design.
|
this is a non change. what exactly do you plan on doing with a 1 siege tank rush? or even, the saved gas means you get one more siege tank during that minute it takes to research.
i guess if you want to be cheesy as fuck, then prox fac will be pretty strong with this change.
|
Raven are amazing. Mech and raven require a looot of gaz so I played on 3 bases, push with tank thor hellbat and 3-4 ravens. You can do crazy damage against a stack protoss army and cover raven from HT with tanks. Hellbat are not usless too, they did well.
It works very well for the moment.
|
They seriously need to put blue flame back on hellbat and reduce the anti-light damage. It's freaking 30 damage in AOE!!!
|
I would have prefered more tank damage and less hellbat damage. That said TvP mech is now much better.
Early game widow mines are better since detection comes later and will cost more for the Protoss (just the mothership core is not enough). 1-rax FE will be easier to hold. A faster tank with siegemode is excellent for helping holding your FE.
Midgame is now slightly stronger since hellbats being more effecient against Stalkers and Zealots. You can have 1 more Ghost due to the 100 gas you saved earlier.
Lategame is now much better due to Ravens. Even though Void Ray DPS still is OP and needs to be nerfed you can use Ravens to fight both stacked Air armies and killing off Immortals. I think less Ghosts and more Ravens in the lategame is the key to survive Ground/Air switches from Protoss.
|
I really don't think this is going to do anything. Tanks can't pressure early against anyone who can use Nexus Overcharge, and tanks are still going to be bad lategame. What's the concern, exactly?
This is going to have a bigger impact in TvZ and TvT.
|
On January 10 2013 12:56 Belha wrote:
Hellbats are insanelly good right now. As some other said, zealots do not work anymore in TvP with current numbers. Hellions will be vastly more viable against armored, but did that patch really change that much versus light? The dps increased significantly (from 12.6 with blue flame to 15) but the cones won't overlap nearly as much as they did.
Perhaps it did change a lot, it's just that I'm currently a little confused as to why the impact would be so huge.
|
Factory opening defense is now more solid in TvP. The problem still lies in late game transition from mech to raven heavy compositions to combat Protoss air. It's difficult to kill a protoss with a 200/200 mech with a typical composition like archon/lot/immortal already, but this is exacerbated when the protoss transitions to air and the meching player's commitment to mech makes him starved for gas and hence, unable to transition to air as easily as protoss. Not to mention, the cost efficiency of Thors with HIP is horrendus considering that it''s a 6 supply unit dealing lower dps than a stimmed marine. However, defense wise, it's possible to start transitioning to ravens faster since early game terran has been buffed, and taking a 3rd is easier, especially this reduction in 1 minute timing window where the terran without siege can be killed with ease.
|
Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp.
|
On January 10 2013 18:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp.
I can confirm this statement. Just had a game against a zerg. With smaller numbers of helbats, they die faster from surround due to the drastically reduced aoe splash. However, given enough numbers with a perfect 360 arc, a mech line surrounded by helbats will become nearly untouchable by ling flanks and surrounds. This makes early game ling pressure more of a threat but as the game progresses to mid/late, helbats become far more useful in defending tank lines and protecting key units like thors. Also, chargelots die faster which is also a welcome change.
|
I think the difference in holding any toss all in is going to be somewhat noticeable it is the time it saves waiting for seige mode so you should be prepared much earlier. And the gas saved is quite big in the early game you can go quick 2 factory or a starport or maybe allow for some quick widow mine tank pressure builds or contains.
|
I imagine a 1-2-1 with Hellbats.
1-1-1 variants with Hellions always had the big downside that you sorta needed to do at least some damage to the eco to make up for their weakness in the engagement.
Hellbats however are really strong against Zealots.
That is the direction I would go as Terran.
|
On January 10 2013 18:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp.
It still has the same gas cost and the same HP, only much lower damage. How does that make it better to integrate it in a bio build.
Yes it is easier to mass them, but that doesnt change it is a horrible idea to mass them. The only change is that I expect reapers will be seen alot more: as initial scout. But I really dont expect to ever see more than 3 of them being made.
|
On January 10 2013 21:14 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 18:43 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Their short range and slower movement speed will make massing hellbats a tricky task, requiring presplitting to maximize their output. The damage change is a good change, the bonus damage to light on the reaper was just impossible to integrate into a bio build due to its ridiculous gas cost of 50 for a unit with 50 hp. It still has the same gas cost and the same HP, only much lower damage. How does that make it better to integrate it in a bio build. Yes it is easier to mass them, but that doesnt change it is a horrible idea to mass them. The only change is that I expect reapers will be seen alot more: as initial scout. But I really dont expect to ever see more than 3 of them being made.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about integrating reapers into a bio build pre-patch as an anti-light role was impossible due to its high gas cost.
The updated Hellbat serves this role much better.
|
Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras.
lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great.
1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers.
2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo.
3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease.
vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway..
this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach.
4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though.
overall :
nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision
huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway.
they seems to be in the good direction
we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT
we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race.
why whine so much?
maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building .
|
On January 10 2013 23:25 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building .
The answer is simple. You need more than 2 reapers to have the same damageoutput vs light that they had prepatch and now look at their buildtime.
btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch
|
btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch
reaper barely outrunned stalker which means when he just click and follow you, you had no time to deal dommage.the speed advantage is very significant now. For the queen of course you outrunned queens with reapers but now with the speed upgrade you can move your harass very fast and mess more with zerg queen positionning. Less dommage for more mobility i think it's a fair trade. maybe they have to adjust numbers but the idea is good and it fix TvT issues.
and about building time you eco 25s on each barrack so it makes your early reaper more early. With the speed upgrade added to it you can have it in his base a good amount of time before queen pops out when Z hatch first
In TvZ I play a 3 rax reaper into double expand of my own which is even better now because of the cheaper tech in reaper. I can safely expand very fast and my strat turn into a less allinish aggression. It still very effective vs Zerg as it force the same defensive response than before. The only problem i am having right now is that speedlings become a viable option vs this.
|
Can anyone tell me (cannot test yet, not at home for quite a while) how is the new Reaper effective or still a sensible option in the good old Micromancer's opening (3 Reaper into heavy marine after "reaper expand")?
Does it still make sense to build those 3 Reapers before heavy reactor-barracks play or should you just alter the build?
|
On January 10 2013 11:04 XXXSmOke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 09:32 one-one-one wrote:On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
It's great against colossi and stalkers, not so great against anything else.
Hellbats lost their bio tag I presume, so this means, reactor them factories, its time to make a shit ton of hellbats! Yeah I agree, but tanks are quite good vs sentries too. How is it, Hellbats require armory right? I guess no siege mode upgrade means that we can spend that gas on an early armory. I'm thinking of opening 1 rax expand or 16 gas into 2 factories with a reactored rax. Make marines x2 to deal with MsC and other crap and then swap it to make hellbats when armory is done. I don't know. It could work out as I can imagine that the timings are quite neat. I think hellbats still have the bio tag tho. Yea, Alot of people arent taking the hell bat buff into consideration. They now do 30 damage to zealots right out of the factory without pre ingnitor right out of the factory. I know the aoe got nerfed, but at early stages of the game the direct damage will be more favorable than the aoe. This also makes hell bats better vs stalkers which is a nice buff as well.
Right now I am thinking of a Raven(For PDD)+Tank+Hellbat 2 base push. You would bring 1-3 scvs along the way to lay turrets down just like in BW to stop Air units/Obs. If the toss goes early air then you just delay the push and add some vikings. The idea would be to challenge the third of the Protoss.
I thought this as well initially, but you have to keep in mind the severely short range of the Hellbat, and it's slower movement speed. Stalkers should never be in danger from Hellbats
|
On January 10 2013 12:56 a176 wrote:
this is a non change. what exactly do you plan on doing with a 1 siege tank rush? or even, the saved gas means you get one more siege tank during that minute it takes to research.
i guess if you want to be cheesy as fuck, then prox fac will be pretty strong with this change.
I've been doing a pretty funny troll build on an alt account, 1 gas no-siege tank marine push, and it actually kills people surprisingly often... if I had siege... wow. I would feel bad about winning. Well, more than I already do.
|
I'm always glad when they turn a worker genocide unit into a real unit.
Reapers are and have always been gas expensive, but the real limiting factor was that it was so damn hard to build them.
Right now you can use 2 Reactor Rax and one naked Rax to do what used to take 5 barracks, 5 tech labs, a Factory, and an upgrade. Oh, also, a Starport and a Medivac.
The investment has really been cut in half, so there's really nothing wrong with halving the damage versus light. Maybe now they could even buff it to 5x2.
I'm a supporter of lower DPS pretty much across the board. With such high unit density, it's required to slow down the snowball effect.
|
I've found the 1/1/1 battle hellion, tank and medivac pretty devastating vs zerg. Hit before mutas and I think there's not much a zerg can do.
|
On January 10 2013 17:27 iEchoic wrote:
I really don't think this is going to do anything. Tanks can't pressure early against anyone who can use Nexus Overcharge, and tanks are still going to be bad lategame. What's the concern, exactly?
This is going to have a bigger impact in TvZ and TvT.
With that in mind, before beta is over I would like to see protoss forced to make a choice between a nexus that can overcharge, and a nexus that can cronoboost. Much like Terran have to make a choice between a defensive command center or an economic one. I would like to see how this works out (just to test) before beta is over.
|
proxy reaper into proxy siege tank and use the reapers for high ground vision as you siege up in front of the opponent's base imo
|
On January 10 2013 23:43 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 23:25 SSVnormandy wrote:Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building . The answer is simple. You need more than 2 reapers to have the same damageoutput vs light that they had prepatch and now look at their buildtime. btw you could outrun queens and stalker prepatch
Now you can get them super early, without a tech lab, and use them for all the scouting you could ever want. Worried about an all-in, just pump out an early reaper and get your scout on.
This is the main reason Blizzard changed the reaper. The main thing holding that unit back was its crazy damage output against light units, which is every starting unit for all of the races. Plus all workers as well. With the regen and minimal investment, terran has a reliable scout that can be used over and over to collect information. Its fast and favors the play with good mutil-tasking.
The more information available to the players, the greater the chance the better player will win.
|
On January 10 2013 23:50 SSVnormandy wrote:reaper barely outrunned stalker which means when he just click and follow you, you had no time to deal dommage. [ ... ]
You Frenchies are adorable <3
|
So far i attained a 90% winrate on high master level over 10 games with the following build: 12 rax, 13 gas wait for 50 gas (dont make a marine) get reactor. Keep making scvs and depots.
After the first 2 reapers you get your first cc, get a bunker and 2 more reapers. Grab 2nd gas, make 4 marines and get a factory.
At around this time you can get a 3rd cc and double engi bay (play standard bio from here) in case of mech get more gasses.. This all seems risky but you always come out ahead. Be sure the play aggressive with reapers (keeps msc at home) and as soon as you get 3 tanks you land your third. I stop producing tanks @ 3 and go for regular bio au. When done right you have a push with 2-2 upgrades, 4 medivacs and in total around 170 supply. When you move out grab a 4th and start 3-3. Hf winning 
Ps. Ill clean up this post when im not on my phone.
|
I like how you overrun every Terran that tries out the Reaper, because they can't even fight workers. Getting more then 1 Reaper really is suicide.
On the other hand it would be interesting to have a super high tech upgrade for the reaper that adds light damage and charges again, so they work like super marines lategame again.
But I guess they are scared about their Hellbat, that was never really necessary if they would have tinkered with shared upgrades and the armored tag on the ground for the Viking, that people mentioned till a bit after WoL release.
Don't know why, but I would just like the Reaper and Viking more in those roles.
|
On January 10 2013 11:58 BlackPanther wrote:
Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras.
Yeah, the new Reaper is fucking awful.. It's not good.... vs anything! In its current state, the build time needs to be reduced to like 35 and require only 50 minerals...Thats about what its worth, if that...
Edit: Yeah, you can only argue they are good for scouting which can be done with a well used worker or denied by a wall placed stalker or two now that they can't see up the cliff.
|
On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
Sight. None of them have 13 range sight.
Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need
Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan.
|
On January 10 2013 08:48 XXXSmOke wrote:
One problem with any Factory build in the past was that you always had to add a 2nd gas at the start of your factory. Otherwise you would not be able to research siege and build a tank at the same time. Now with the new patch, you can easily skip this second gas and still get your tank out that already is pre packaged with siege. The new possibiltys here are pretty good. You can still get the second gas and have a ton of extra gas towards an early Raven or a second factory. Or you can skip the second gas and get an expo faster.
I've been doing:
10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15 orbital + marine
build to 3 marines
when you have 100 gas build your factory
after your 3rd marine throw down the tech lab
swap when done, start tank immediately and continue marines
queue up a widow mine and then your gas should accumulate enough for you to start another tank
you'll have a nice excess of minerals cause you didn't take a 2nd gas so you can expand and if you suspect an oracle rush or something get an ebay up in time for any shenanigans
With a couple of marine 4-5 and a tank you can actually push across the map to the toss's base pretty easily. I wouldn't start abusing seige mode until your widow mine gets there. Plus you have to be weary about how early they have their MSC and keep your marines alive from stalker kiting.
Sort of like a BW FD Terran build, you get a nice mineral excess, and you can at anytime just unseige and walk back to your base and be fine against any all ins with marines/tanks/widowmine. Plus you might get the added bonus of denying their expo by burrowing a widow mine and such at the natural or 3rd.
With the delayed second gas makes it sort of hard to tech to a starpot. I think reactor hellion aggression might be the way to go as a followup or for for a fast 3rd CC.
|
Disregarding the fact that the Reaper is now useless- it is also now really boring.
The bonus damage against Light was their primary advantage as opposed to Marines. Now, they're a really fast but really awful Marine that regenerates HP. And marines can shoot air, and can stim. And can, you know, fight stuff effectively. And they don't cost 50 gas each.
From a strength perspective, for 50m/50g the Reaper had better bring something pretty awesome to the table to ever justify building it over a marine. Hell, Medivacs make your marines regenerate HP too- so the only reason the Reaper as it now stands has any purpose whatsoever is that Medivacs have a much higher tech requirement than Medics. That is literally it. Once you have even a single Medivac, every Reaper is just a Marine with no stim, which also costs way more to acquire.
And even ignoring that, from a design perspective the Reaper needs something even just to differentiate it, and make it more than a bad marine that cannot attack air units.
And before anyone replies that they are fast and have cliff jump- that's nice, I know that. Do you really think either of those things makes it sufficiently functionally different from a Marine to justify its existence? We're talking about Blizzard here- people who thought the Lurker (one of the best units in any RTS ever) should be removed because of the god damn Baneling (oooh I know! Let's make a kamikaze unit!). My point is that Reapers and Marines at the moment both shoot stuff- and do nothing else- and one of the two is much better at the job.
Time for crazy ideas for the Reaper. Anyone think giving the Reaper mines to lay is a good idea? No? How about a grenade to throw? Or timed satchel charge? Anything. Something that is actually dangerous and kill-ish and deserving of the name REAPER.
|
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
|
in TvP the new speed of reaper gives you amazing scouting ability. for a standard 1 rax expo i build a reaper as soon as i get 50 gas and i use him for all the scouting. as it is very fast you have time to scout the P base and also proxy pylons expands and so on. very very useful and don't even need a techlab
|
On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
It is pretty much only a really earlygame scout. Yes I expect them to be seen in pretty much every matchup, but I also expect it to be extremely rare that more than 2-3 of them are build in a game.
|
On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.
Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan.
Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50.
|
After playing a few games, the new Hellbats are great vs buildings
|
What about hit-and-run harassment with reapers comparable to phoenix? You could get in with 3-4, easily kill a few probes and get out as soon as defence arrives, then heal up and repeat. Isn't it feasible?
|
On January 11 2013 09:15 NeWnAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
Sight. None of them have 13 range sight. Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan.
On 1 base, a scan will not hold out long enough to do good damage. 2 or more scans will hurt your econ very hard. You can not even spam your scan so after 1 scan you're out.
Your theory is not practical, upload a replay and you can show us how it is done.
|
Did a few tests and turns out that a proxy reaper comes 45 seconds before the first stalker pops out - if you happen to play 13 gate, 15 gas and skip the first zealot + MsC.
Terran can do some weird proxy reaper into tank/hellbat/cloakshee push that hits around 7-9 minutes depending on how crazy you wanna get. The new reaper is really brutal against protoss as it will punish any player that goes for an eco opening and will provide excellent scouting during the early- and midgame. It is literally impossible to get a stalker out in time even if protoss decides to not play greedy.
Proxy widowmines have also become much more lethal. The first mine will be done at around 4:45 whereas the first observer comes out of the robo at ~6:10... It now takes some bronze-league micro from the terran to screw that up ^^
The patch was just terrible in almost every way regarding the TvP early game. Terran received like 2 BO instakills and their early game timings have been buffed beyond believe while the lategame mech vs. skytoss has not been targeted in any way, shape or form.
On January 12 2013 00:06 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 09:15 NeWnAr wrote:On January 10 2013 08:55 Duncaaaaaan wrote:
nexus cannon is 13 range, same as the siege tank, so I don't know if the siege tank is going to be any better in this matchup.
Sight. None of them have 13 range sight. Scan. Terran has it. Gives the extra 1 or 2 sight range you need Marines beside tanks. Kills observers that are revealed with scan. On 1 base, a scan will not hold out long enough to do good damage. 2 or more scans will hurt your econ very hard. You can not even spam your scan so after 1 scan you're out. Your theory is not practical, upload a replay and you can show us how it is done.
Sorry, but if you lose your siege tank push because you let an overcharged nexus kill your siegetanks, you are doing something very very wrong.
|
On January 10 2013 23:25 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +Reapers are absolutely useless now. They take absurd amounts of micro to take out only a few lings because they do so little damage against them. They are nice scouts because of the speed but they are so terrible in combat and harass roles. The new hellbat is surprisingly effective against Zerg compositions. They nearly 1 shot lings and they do a nice bit of damage to roaches and hydras. lol i totally disagree with reaper being useless , I love the changes in the reaper they are going in the right direction . I used them in every matchup i tested the new reaper and i think that those change are so great. 1) remove of the vision up cliff -> increase the risk/tension of the reaper harass which is good because it was way too easy to harass with this ability. allow good positionned marines to pick off reapers. 2) increase speed without upgrades anymore : fantastic up that people don't seem to care about. this basically allow you to outrun stalkers and MsC vs P and is good vs Z too for the same reason with queens. as dommage vs stalkers and queens didn't moved you can still pick off those units if u manage to isolate one (which is more easy with the speed upgrade). this also punish harder a bad positionnning of your opponent which is good imo. 3) nerf of the dommage vs light unit : main impact in TvT because the basic defense is marine and it is light. don't affect so much TvZ because even it's becoming more difficult to kill lings early on you can quit them with so much more ease. vs Protoss more difficult to kill Zealot but com'on who is using reaper to kill zealot as main purpose anyway.. this nerf is understandable as you can move faster to mineral line it is expected you kill probe slower. This also allow zerg to counter reaper with speedlings and not forcing him to roach. 4) produce reaper without techlab : awesome as it allow you to put pressure on with more than 1 rax and still expand very fast . for example 3 rax reaper you econ 150 min 75 gas which is huge on early game. reactor reaper seems nice too didn't tested yet though. overall : nerf reaper in TvT because of the remove of both light dmg and cliff vision huge buff vs Z and P as you can now harass with less investment on tech (no tech lab no need upgrade on fac anymore which represent as an example for a 3rax reaper an economy of 300 mineral 175 gas on very early game which is huuuuuuge) and the nerf of dmg doesnt impact so much those matchup as lings and Zealot are no threat or priority target of reaper anyway. they seems to be in the good direction we wanted nerf reaper in TvT this patch clearly nerf reaper in TvT we wanted more use of reaper in TvZ TvP this patch provide good buff to reaper harass vs those race. why whine so much? maybe a later lategame upgrade could be put in to allow reaper being usefull lategame. like an upgrade improving dmg vs light again or giving back grenade vs building .
We wanted?
How do you assume that you know what other people want.
What I, personally, want is a harassbased unit that works in a similar way as the mutalisk. Its pretty efficient at harassing opposing bases, but still somewhat acceptable in a battle (unlike the current reaper).
|
On January 12 2013 00:23 Hider wrote:
We wanted?
How do you assume that you know what other people want.
What I, personally, want is a harassbased unit that works in a similar way as the mutalisk. Its pretty efficient at harassing opposing bases, but still somewhat acceptable in a battle (unlike the current reaper).
Because anything blizzard wants is what everyone wants, and is always better for the game, obviously.
|
In regards to insta-siege tanks, why can't the Toss player load up on the natural hard counter (Immortals)?
Granted the timing favors the Terran since the Tech Lab can be built on the Rax then swapped to the Factory.
Meanwhile, has anyone actually tested if Reactor Rax can produce 2 reapers concurrently?
|
On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50.
More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
|
is there some kind of opening for tvp that doesnt get u behind severly or is cheesy? some solid opening that doesnt die to stupid random shit
|
On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap.
|
On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes?
Eh I wrote less efficient than a scan in the previous sentence, so I obviously compare it to the scan. Doesn't really make sense to compare cross race units.
This can, however, be fixable by reducing costs (which i expect them too), but it doesn't change the fact that they missed the opportunity to create one of the most interesting units in the game (yeh the reaper could be so awesome if done correctly).
Oh btw, the reaper is way more expensive than a mule. The present value of a mule is closer to 150 than 240/270. Also there is an opporutnity costs related to the reaper as you could have produced marines/maurauders instead
You get the scan immediately, but the reaper comes in 1 minut, which again increases the "true" cost of the reaper compared to that of scanning.
Against raising the skill cap?
Joking?
If you think increased scouting options is the best way of increasing the skill cap, then i don't know what to tell you.
|
On January 12 2013 01:57 {ToT}ColmA wrote:
is there some kind of opening for tvp that doesnt get u behind severly or is cheesy? some solid opening that doesnt die to stupid random shit
I'm starting with a reaper expand for scout info on what tech he is going, followed by taking the other gas to either go tanks against a blink allin or vikings for oracles.
|
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ
|
Has anyone tried 1 raven worker harass? IE, 2 seeker missiles directly into the worker line?
|
On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ
Actually it does!
It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change.
|
On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change.
Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in.
Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker.
|
On January 12 2013 02:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? Eh I wrote less efficient than a scan in the previous sentence, so I obviously compare it to the scan. Doesn't really make sense to compare cross race units. This can, however, be fixable by reducing costs (which i expect them too), but it doesn't change the fact that they missed the opportunity to create one of the most interesting units in the game (yeh the reaper could be so awesome if done correctly). Oh btw, the reaper is way more expensive than a mule. The present value of a mule is closer to 150 than 240/270. Also there is an opporutnity costs related to the reaper as you could have produced marines/maurauders instead You get the scan immediately, but the reaper comes in 1 minut, which again increases the "true" cost of the reaper compared to that of scanning. Against raising the skill cap? Joking? If you think increased scouting options is the best way of increasing the skill cap, then i don't know what to tell you.
Your spin on your post doesn't make any sense given the post you were responding to (which ended with "It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran.") but you are not a good writer (in English at least) so I will be charitable and assume you're telling the truth and not just backtracking on what you said.
And of course scouting raises the skill cap because it rewards players who 1) spend the apm and "attention" to scout and 2) are intelligent enough to react properly to what they see. If you do not think scouting is an essential part of the game and part of skillful play then I don't know what to tell you. Why would you react negatively to something that gives good players the ability to scout better? If you want mech to be more feasible this is potentially an indirect way of allowing mech players to play way greedier in the early phase of the game, which will make Terran mid and late game more powerful. Terran used to be pretty scary against zerg in all phases of the game until the queen buff allowed Zerg to play way, way greedier. Now they seem pretty much impotent in the late game. Will this (and the siege tank) change have the opposite effect for tvp? Who knows at this point?
I'm curious. Since you're using "present value" terms, how are you discounting the value of the mule? (I'm expecting a good laugh when I hear your discounting methodology but I'm prepared to be surprised.)
As to your opportunity cost point, there is also an opportunity cost of the scan as a scouting tool (other than the loss of earlier minerals and relative to using the reaper as a scout) namely the radius of the scan and the number of potential locations to hide tech, the fact a scan of the main won't necessarily tell you whether your opponent has expanded, etc. This isn't to say of course that a reaper will necessarily always be better than a scan; it depends on maps, matchups, builds, playstyles, etc. The question is a more subtle one that will require the pros to test it out and see it's effectiveness. The new reaper's utility (primarily as a scout) is not something, as you and your partner the Durpp guy would have us believe, that can simply be dismissed, especially in the absence of having lots of people try it out to see whether it's effective.
|
On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker.
Toss's always gets a stalker?
I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more.
|
On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more.
People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way.
In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting.
It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid.
|
On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid.
What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then?
If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished?
Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard.
Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers an earler reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe).
So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style.
Even though scanning is cheaper than building a reaper, most pro's (and me) do not even scan early game as you simply can be safe against everything by building 2 bunkers/turrets blindly etc. So unless there is some kind of signifcant cost reduction to the reaper, it just won't be that useful.
|
On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap.
If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan.
Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all?
To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
|
On January 12 2013 04:27 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid. What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then? If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished? Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard. Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers and early reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe). So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style.
I am assuming the terran is doing a 1 rax, blocking the ramp to deny further scouting and building the reaper off of that. If I could not confirm with my first stalker they were investing their gas is something else that was not more reapers, I would feel mildly worried about some dumb all-in, since it all looks the same without the need for a tech-lab. Depending on how you invest chrono-boost, warpgate can finish well after the first reaper hits your base and starts messing around. That reaper would make me field a second stalker, rather than build a sentry and focus on expanding and then getting more warpgates.
This is all super early stuff, sub 30 supply, but it matters. This is the time when the protoss has almost no information on the terran beyond “there be gas and a barracks” and they need to decide how to invest. Every protoss has invested poorly in the early game and lost to an all in or some kind of early pressure because the did not have enough standing units.
|
On January 12 2013 04:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap. If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan. Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all? To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
While I agree with you that marines can't really scout a toss early on (the reaper will be better at that), using a reaper will almost never be worthwhile in the early game (as I previosuly argued). That brings us to the midgame where you argue that you can use them to scout for 3rd etc; In theory this sounds viable, but then reality strikes.
At the time you want to to scout for whether the protoss takes a 3rd, then you are the one (as the terran player) who has map control. The protoss will never take a 3rd without you knowing it, and due to drop play you can easily see everything the protoss can do. And think about it this way; if the protoss can deny dropship harass, he can probably deny reapers as well.
In a tvt (you are the bio player he is the mech player) then the same rules applies as in the tvp example (the bio player has map control), and the mech player likely has hellions out so he can easily scout whether the terran takes a 3rd as well.
But that knowledge is actually close to useless, as it doesn't matter as a meching terran whether the bio player takes a quick 3rd or a semilate 3rd or plans to do a 2 base all ins(which isn't viable in bio vs mech).
You could argue that they could be usefull to scout for air transitions but even then its just not very certain that the reapers will scout anything as it will get easily shutdown due to mass units being out all over the map, and you generally want to minimize unnecessacary actions, so you rather just scan his main/natural/3rd.
Tvz, typically the teran has hellions/widow mines and will almost always know when a zerg player takes a 3rd (which typically will be before we get into midgame), and in the mid/late-game he will ahve creep eveywhere so your chances of seeing anything will be close to 0.
Its possible though that it can be usefull if you use specific builds where you open bio and want to scout whether your oppoenent goes for an allin. Since you have no hellions out, you can't use them. So you consider scanning but realize that your opponent could have his tech either at the natural or the main, so you opt to get a reaper. But even in that special case it may turn out to be more efficient just to get 1-2 blind bunkers rather than a reaper.
So let me instead suggest which role I belive the reaper should have;
Mainly as a mobile harass unit oriented unit that still is okay'ish (rather than terrible) in a battle - similar to the role the mutalisk.
In WOL the reaper is such a goddamn fun unit to actually run around with and harass bases, but it is just such a shame that is completely useless in battles, which means it will never be anything but a niche unit if it isn't redesigned in the correct way.
I would very much appreciate if it became viable to build 10-15 reapers in the mid/late game and use them to harass constantly. This would reward great mechanics and multitasking skills.
|
On January 12 2013 04:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 04:27 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 04:20 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 04:11 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 03:53 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 03:42 Hider wrote:On January 12 2013 02:31 tehemperorer wrote:
The change doesn't really affect TvP... the Mothershipcore already stops any early aggression so P can cut a bunch of corners for tech or econ, and a single sentry can halluc a phoenix to find out what you're doing at 6 minutes. Like iEchoic said, it's more impactful in TvT and TvZ Actually it does! It allows terran to get more greedy safely (assuming you go mech). This increases your likelyhood of winning going into midgame. I think Lyyna is really happy about this change. Agreed, there are a ton of PvT all-ins that that won't work with even a single seige tank raining down death from the highground to support the front of the expasion, let alone some widow mines. And with the new, lower investment reaper, the terran has more tools to sniff out that all-in. Also, from what I have played, if I see a reaper, I feel the need to build at least once stalker earlier than normal. Since they both cost 50 gas, it is a reasonable trade for one reaper to force one stalker. Toss's always gets a stalker? I think with the current costs of the reapers, they are simply not worth it. 50-50 + the long production time doesn't justify the information you may (or may not get if it gets denied). I expect the gas cost to be reduced to 25, but even then it probably won't matter that much for mech as dealing with all ins isn't really that difficult any more. People will invent new, super dumb, all-in. For where there is a will, there is a way. In the opening of the game, a protoss will always build at least one stalker to poke around and scout, but I never really want to build a second one for quite some time. If a reaper shows up in my base, I always feel the need to get that second stalker to hang out at home in case that one reaper becomes 5 reapers, followed up by a dumb amount of marines. This is all pre-robo and really reliable scouting. It is one of those things where you build it the unit to feel safe against a real dumb all in, because if you don't and it happens, you feel super stupid. What kind of opening are you implying the terran does then? If he opens reaper before anything else, then this will probably time out with your stalker being out to counter it. If he gets marines first and then 1 reaper, you may find your self in a situation where your stalker is poking at his bunker while the terrans reaper is harassing your main, but doesn't that correspond roughly to when warp tech is finished? Also if the terran opens reaper reaper he probably delays his expo in order to gas and then he has to do damage. Against a toss chronoing probes he will get a lot alot behind, and those there is just no way this build will get standard. Also I think most terrans that fast expands prefers and early reactor/tech lab for stim/factory so that he can drop, rather than spending 50 gas on reapers (unless he goes 1 rax expo into double gas but that is generally unsafe). So yeh to sum up, its possible that there will be developed some kind of stupid cheese, but every way you look at it, it doesn't make sense to build the reaper if you are trying to play a solid style. I am assuming the terran is doing a 1 rax, blocking the ramp to deny further scouting and building the reaper off of that. If I could not confirm with my first stalker they were investing their gas is something else that was not more reapers, I would feel mildly worried about some dumb all-in, since it all looks the same without the need for a tech-lab. Depending on how you invest chrono-boost, warpgate can finish well after the first reaper hits your base and starts messing around. That reaper would make me field a second stalker, rather than build a sentry and focus on expanding and then getting more warpgates. This is all super early stuff, sub 30 supply, but it matters. This is the time when the protoss has almost no information on the terran beyond “there be gas and a barracks” and they need to decide how to invest. Every protoss has invested poorly in the early game and lost to an all in or some kind of early pressure because the did not have enough standing units.
But that is what your initial scouting probe is for (right?); to scout whether he goes gasless or gets a gas.-
|
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation.
|
On January 12 2013 04:33 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 02:06 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On January 12 2013 01:33 The_Darkness wrote:On January 11 2013 21:35 Hider wrote:On January 11 2013 16:52 Insoleet wrote:
Reaper is a scouting unit now, it doesnt have to be a strong fighting unit. It's like and obs or an overseer, but for terran. Just more expensive, requires more apm and is less efficient than a scan. Yeh it is way overpriced at 50/50. More expensive than what, an overseer? It's the same price and a lot faster. An observer costs more gas and requires a robo. A reaper is a true T1 unit. It's also cheaper than a scan, which costs you a mule (240 and 270 minerals). Whether it's more or less efficient than a scan depends on how good you are with the reaper since the reaper can scout an entire base if microed well, potentially. The reaper will allow good players to avoid burning scans, but it requires attention and micro, and thus it raises the skill cap. It also will allow you to scout for hidden tech much easier, just like speedlings allow you to do as zerg. It seems like you're against raising the skill cap. I don't understand why anyone would be against that. It also seems like you don't play HoTS since you don't know basic facts about what things cost, which raises the question why do you spend so much time commenting on HoTS changes? There's more factors than just "to use a reaper or to use a scan". There's more to reaper's cost than just 50/50. A reapers takes almost twice as long to build as a marine, requires gas income, which takes significantly longer to build up, AND requires more than one reaper if you want to use the reaper for anything other than scouting. Basically, there's no reason to build more than one reaper because you are getting more diminishing returns from building more than one. For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes and then run back and be a lot more cost efficient than if I sent in 2 reapers to do the same thing and not do any damage. If your opponent is really cautious about hiding hidden tech and they already know that you're using a reaper than they're going to make sure that the reaper doesn't see anything, forcing you to use a scan anyway. And I don't get it. How is the current reaper raising the skillcap more than the old reaper did? You're telling me that a unit with more tools and flexibility is lowering the skillcap? I guess making the unit only good at one role and making the unit faster so it's easy to do that role is "raising" the skillcap. If the comparison is between the new and old reaper then i agree with you, they've limited the utility of this reaper (probably for the better) and thus it's not worth the APM to use it to harass worker lines. If the comparison is between using the reaper and using a scan to scout, which was clearly the focus of my post, then there is less room for debate -- it takes more effort to scout with a reaper than to scout with a scan. Also as usual your post contains weird statements that make me think you never, ever play SC2 or HoTS. For example, you write, "For the cost of two reapers to not just scout, but harass, I could literally send in 2 marines a lot faster to check for an expansion, snipe some probes." What planet do you live on where you send out two marines to scout and "snipe some probes". Sending two marines out by themselves with no follow up at a high level should never ever net you a probe kill and, depending on when you send them, your two marines are likely to get killed by a zealot or stalker. If you send them well before 5:00, I'm not sure about the timing but perhaps they can walk into the main base but then why wouldn't you send an scv? Also if you send them too early they'll likely die before the expansion is put down and you'll be left wondering whether the expansion went down or your opponent threw down three more gateways and is 4 gating you. In all seriousness, which league are you in and do you play WOL or HoTS at all? To show you that I can be reasonable: I will note that I agree with you that there likely is no reason to build more than reaper now, at least in the early game. If you use reapers as scouting lings it might not be a bad idea to have two or three to try to control the watch towers, when possible, to scout for hidden tech, to scout for a third, etc. But there does not seem to be any incentive to mass them and they are essentially just scouts now, which strikes me as fine.
I never meant that the marines went inside the protoss base, I was making the point that you could use 2 marines to check for an expansion and essentially it'd be more cost effective. It's called a comparison, where you compare two scenarios and point out the difference between them. None of them are realistic because there would be no reason you build more than one reaper, and you would more likely use your scv to scout. I was just making the point that building more than one reaper was pointless. I mean jeez, does everything you have to say have to question my intelligence with your elitist attitude?
And how would would it change whether you used a reaper for scouting as opposed to an scv or a marine? SCVs and marines give you much more utility overall, and if you're really worried what protoss is building you would rather use a scan than get your reaper killed. I mean I've even seen more creative ways of scouting where terrans would fly marines into the protoss base, stim and scout that way. You could even fly your viking in the protoss base and get a better scout that way. I've never thought at the core, terran really needed another scout. Hell, I'd rather have multiper observers than multiple reapers.
|
I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine.
|
Like above guy said, reapers are terribad. Maybe there will be some kind of epic all-in cheese build with them but i highly doubt even one of those will spring up.
|
On January 12 2013 06:15 ledarsi wrote:
I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine.
Expect Blizzard to make this kind of statement within a week:
"We have received a lot of feedback regarding the new reaper and we really like the role as a scouting unit. We would, however, like too see it used even more and therefore we have reduced the cost of the reaper to 50/25."
|
to be honest im really happy with this patch the new hellbats are just great they allow a mech player to invest his minerals finnally in sth usefull also the siege tank buff is A BUFF it allows terran some better timings aswell as defending vs early all-ins / hard pressures and also fixes a bit vs toss since u wont die that easy vs stupid allins or can defend them without much looses which allows u to go with a advantage in late game ( i woud still lile to see a dmg buff vs toss shild or sth like that ... or nerve the fucking immo ). the new raven is just awesome and i think it will nerved a bit soon cause seaker missile should cost 100 energy imo but thats fine 
|
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now.
|
On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation.
And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
|
On January 12 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:15 ledarsi wrote:
I have been playing with Reapers. They suck.
It is difficult to convey how much they suck. For the price of two Reapers, you can get an upgrade, a research such as Stimpack or Combat Shield, or a Factory. You can get a tank for less than the cost of three Reapers. Reapers are one of the most expensive units in the game. And they.... suck. Their performance against literally every unit in the game is completely underwhelming. Even workers- they just don't kill them fast enough to be worth building.
Superficially it appears that a Reaper does more damage than a Marine. They do 4x2 versus a Marine's 6. However reapers cannot stim, do not benefit from combat shield, and Medivacs heal them just the same... redundant with their own healing. Honestly, never build Reapers. Make marines instead.
And did I mention that Reapers are 50 gas EACH? Like holy crap are they gas expensive. And you're basically getting a Marine. A very fast marine, granted. But it's basically a bad marine. Expect Blizzard to make this kind of statement within a week: "We have received a lot of feedback regarding the new reaper and we really like the role as a scouting unit. We would, however, like too see it used even more and therefore we have reduced the cost of the reaper to 50/25."
One stalker can solo two reapers, so a cost reduction like that wouldn't be terrible. I can see some really dumb all-in with them using marines if they were that cost, but that was always going to happen once the tech lab requirment was removed.
|
On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work.
|
On January 12 2013 07:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'? I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work.
typically that works. Like the warhound and the oracle's old entomb could have been avoided by proper theorycrafting.
|
On January 12 2013 07:25 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 07:15 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'? I feel that is a safe assumption to make any time new patch notes are released. Not everyone, but there are people who just look at the numbers and let the theory-craft machine go to work. typically that works. Like the warhound and the oracle's old entomb could have been avoided by proper theorycrafting.
Sometimes I feel by the way blizzard talks they like to theorycraft more than test things, hence changes like the ones we get in this patch.
|
The patch came at a lucky timing, so many HotS showmatches. And people actually try out reapers there and its just too funny. But Spoon Reapers give me this old broodwar worker scout micro feeling a bit. Since the opponent can't really kill them early on.
Then again I can just build a proxy racks and lift it and scout.
|
On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now.
Wow, you know nothing.
You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base.
100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc.
Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
|
On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
I am working with tanks to compliment my bio force. To hold early agression and keep me alive in the mid game. Combined with armory + armor upgrades that also effect air units. What i am working on is having a nice, more flued transition into a very powerful late game army.
My problem right now is a solid late-game army. I've worked with:
- Mass Ghost, Viking and a couple of medivacs.
- Mass BC and a couple of ghosts.
Skytoss deathball seems like a huge problem with my 2 compositions. Does anybody know, or have suggestions on my late-game army that can compete with a solid Sky toss + Htemplar army?
Much appreciated.
|
United States4883 Posts
On January 15 2013 02:53 Stingart wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame. I am working with tanks to compliment my bio force. To hold early agression and keep me alive in the mid game. Combined with armory + armor upgrades that also effect air units. What i am working on is having a nice, more flued transition into a very powerful late game army. My problem right now is a solid late-game army. I've worked with: - Mass Ghost, Viking and a couple of medivacs. - Mass BC and a couple of ghosts. Skytoss deathball seems like a huge problem with my 2 compositions. Does anybody know, or have suggestions on my late-game army that can compete with a solid Sky toss + Htemplar army? Much appreciated.
Quite honestly, the best composition I've come up with to deal with skytoss is just MASS MASS vikings and around 10-12 ravens. You can also add in a handful of mines and thors to deal with any warpin ground threat; burrowing about 8 mines under the sky fleet (which has to manually target the mines if in range of your vikings) will decimate packs of clumped void rays or carriers.
I like to just drop around 10 PDDs in an area that I want to cover, and that basically forces protoss into a position where they can't engage there or risk carriers getting picked off with vikings. With this, you can cover about 2 areas with the PDDs which also serve as flying spotters.
This is just my experience though. I'm not sure I liked BCs against protoss, even before the tempests. Quite honestly, I would just avoid BCs altogether against skytoss. I'm sure it's also good to have ghosts out for EMP or nuke harass. You can also trade for ghosts/ravens/vikings safely by sending 3-4 tanks + hellbats at a time to outlying bases to clean them up.
|
On January 14 2013 17:09 itsMAHVELbaybee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 06:32 ledarsi wrote:
While technically a buff, making siege innate does NOTHING in TvP. The fact that they think it only affects TvP is absolutely mind-boggling. It affects.... TvZ and TvT, and will have zero impact on TvP, where tanks are never used to begin with. The problem isn't that the tank isn't available soon enough. The problem is that the tank simply DOES NOTHING against Protoss units.
Without a buff to the actual tank's properties this is not going to change. Blizzard, just make it a 2 supply unit that deals 35 (+35 Armored) damage. Just try it out. I promise it will not be overpowered. It will STILL be more expensive and effectively weaker than the Brood War tank, and there are way more counter options against it available in SC2.
I agree that the Raven changes are good, though. Long awaited, but at least the Raven is finally in a place where it is a reasonable option. Still more expensive than HTs and Infestors for less functionality, and less reliable functionality, but at least it's useful now. Wow, you know nothing. You apparently think there are ZERO uses for tanks in TvP. Gumiho, Byun, MMA, Bomber, that have utilized builds that use tanks at some point, as to not die to certain pushes. Like going 1 rax FE into cloak banshee, Gumiho gets a couple of tanks in order to not die to a mass gate counter if his banshee can't do damage or pin him inside of his base. 100/100 resources is a huge money sink. The point is you don't even need a second gas to have a tank + seige mode. Freeing up on gas is huge for mineral income. Lets you get a faster CC, ebay, rax, etc. Late game TvP tank, yeah probably hasn't changed much, but at least if you build an early factory you have more flexibility going into the midgame and lategame.
So your argument is that, sometimes, tanks are built. Therefore they aren't underpowered? Are you serious?
100m/100g is significant early in the game. Like.... for only building 1-2 tanks early on, saving 100 gas is a big deal. But only building 1-2 tanks to avoid dying to a particular gateway timing doesn't really count as "tank usage" anyway. You saying that "oh, technically tanks do actually have one use." is very silly, even if it were true.
However it really matters in TvT, where a one gas two tank push is now considerably faster, and it was a decent build before. Also in TvZ where marine tank is completely standard.
I'm talking actually building tanks in TvP. Which nobody does, because they well and truly suck. You can't build lots of tanks in TvP because you are going to get crushed by Protoss units. It almost doesn't matter what, but obviously there are Immortals and now Tempests as major problem units.
If you actually want to build a significant number of tanks, that 100m/100g is not nearly as relevant. Leaving the siege tech research (or even making it more expensive) and buffing the tank would make them less accessible early, and stronger to actually build.
|
(just because there may be a niche use for a unit, doesn't mean they aren't underpowered, or that they are "viable")
|
On January 12 2013 06:55 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 05:54 DudeManAl wrote:
Why don't people in this thread try out reaper openings instead of throwing down Reaper cost numbers and magical timings and reasons as to why it is or is not effective? The metagame would have never developed if after WoL was released people just sat and discussed strategy... you need to play in order to understand and evolve the play ...
I say just keep PLAYING with Reaper and posting results instead of just speculation. And why are you implying that other players haven't tried reapers and are only talking 'from numbers'?
My statement was directed at people who are guilty of theory crafting/complaining without playing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
