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On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch  Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
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On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
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On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
The problem is that it doesnt work that way. Blizzard might be reading a ton of stuff, BUT they are not accepting ideas which go against their philosophy ... no matter how politely you explain it to them and no matter how much the idea makes sense. After some time people get the impression that Blizzard is just a bunch of idiots who ignore the community unless they have no other choice (Warhound maybe, but they might have designed that unit so badly on purpose to "prove" that they are listening to the community). The reply we got after the dynamic movement test clearly showed they had ZERO CLUE what the point of the exercise was.
On December 22 2012 00:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 19:07 Insoleet wrote:Dustin said they are trying to fix fungle problems through balance. But if they cant, they'll redesign it. @DustinBrowder May you just completely redesign fungal? The problem is chain fungal. Not the speed, not the range, etc... @Adashra I don't see why we can't tune it through balance. We still have lots of beta time left. But if we can't we will redesign. Good news i guess. As I expected and I think he is correct. It’s not the fact that is snares, it is the fact it can be cast over and over on the same group of targets. They should try making units immune to the snare for 8 seconds after the first hit. Or make the stun 2 second, but the damage lasts over 4. That stops the unit, but it cannot be reapplied until fungle ends.
So you came up with some brilliantly simple way to make the spell less obnoxious right where it annoys most ... and what did the "team of expert game developers" do? They modified range and the application method which really solve not a micrometer of the problem, because it doesnt matter what speed your fungal missile travels when you chainfungal and the first one hit. Doesnt that make you SERIOUSLY doubt their qualifications for the job of being "creative designers"? All the changes are so terribly uninspired, random and dumb that you have to be Ghandi to not start using really strong insults to describe them. Personally I have to triple check my posts to edit out any words that could be too strong when describing "them".
Three months is not what I would call "a lot of time" for a beta ... unless you already plan to have some 24/7 emergency weeks right before launch to do that redesigning and testing of an important spell, so I would call that tweet of Dustin Browder an attempt to calm the customers down. At least for me it is pretty obvious and dishonest that they are not worried one bit.
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There are only two good changes from Hots so far IMO:
1. Carrier micro ... but sadly they didnt bother to put that into their own patch notes.
2. Thor AA change ... which is a step in the right direction, but not nearly enough (not with super-regenerating Mutalisks which easily abuse the first AA damage setup of that unit). Just compare it with the stats of the Goliath in BW and remember that there are a lot more units on an SC2 battlefield AND that the Thor requires three times the supply ...
Everything else - specifically the units - is pretty badly designed IMO.
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On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
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On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
This is false. The majority of feedback on HoTS is along the lines of "1. Unit X has a design flaw. 2. Blizzard does not know what it's doing. 3. DK and DB are idiots. 4. We should go back to BW unit X." Most of it is pretty ridiculous and is hardly well argued. The only exception to this rule has been for Beta patches 8 and 9, where the community was very supportive.
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I havent played patch 10 yet, everything I can agree on except the buffs to infestor. I thought 8 range was a sufficient nerf, now they put it all the way at 10? That outranges a thermal lance colossus, doesn't sound logical to me in the slightest. I liked the idea of nerfing the snare or tweaking it. Make it a 1 second stun and an upgrade on the Pit to improve fungal growth?
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On December 22 2012 02:43 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. This is false. The majority of feedback on HoTS is along the lines of "1. Unit X has a design flaw. 2. Blizzard does not know what it's doing. 3. DK and DB are idiots. 4. We should go back to BW unit X." Most of it is pretty ridiculous and is hardly well argued. The only exception to this rule has been for Beta patches 8 and 9, where the community was very supportive.
Have you ever thought about the reason for this "exeption to this rule"? Could it be the fact that patch 8 & 9 were simply a step in the right direction, while patch 10 is just a bad one?
There will always be whining and even wierd feedback. But at the beginning of the beta you could find many reasonable and analytic threads and postings, discussing stuff in a very mannered and open-minded way.
But more and more people are loosing their patience. This patch is a big step backwards. And time for big changes is running out.
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On December 22 2012 02:20 death_vinegar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad". the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch. If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible. That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal after the infestor was finally in a decent state for a mere two weeks after 1.5 years of Wings of Lings, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
I'll tell you what Blizzard is though; stubborn and egotistical. I love them, but it's true.
Q: Any chance of thinking about reworking the warp mechanic?
A: Not a chance. Sorry.
—Dustin Browder recently on Twitter
When asked about reworking or removing things that they introduced to SC2 you'll always (always) be told that there's "not a chance", and ironically these things are the same things that been hurting the game and eSports for the past few years the most. Community negligence isn't a good thing; from a collective perspective we know what this game needs more than they do, and yet they refuse to listen. Decent patches like patch #8 should not be a rare occasion.
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Why would people be losing their patience? Maybe it's just you. It's 3 months before release so they still have plenty of time to balance the game considering they put out a balance update just about every week. But if you want to quit SC2 because the beta isn't balanced (lol) then that's up to you. I have faith that Blizzard is far from done trying to balance all the units and matchup as I'm sure they're seeing the same problems as we do, and even some problems that we don't see.
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On December 22 2012 02:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:20 death_vinegar wrote:On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad". the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it. Extremely well said. Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch. If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible. That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability. Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing. Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your arugments after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
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On December 22 2012 03:07 sagefreke wrote:
Why would people be losing their patience? Maybe it's just you. It's 3 months before release so they still have plenty of time to balance the game considering they put out a balance update just about every week. But if you want to quit SC2 because the beta isn't balanced (lol) then that's up to you. I have faith that Blizzard is far from done trying to balance all the units and matchup as I'm sure they're seeing the same problems as we do, and even some problems that we don't see.
Look at the comments here. It's niot just me.
And I really think you should:
a) read
b) stop putting words in my mouth
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On December 22 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 02:20 death_vinegar wrote:On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad". the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it. Extremely well said. On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch. If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible. That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability. Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing. Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness". But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me. P.S. Please stop editing your aaaagrrumtents after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
Lack of proper high ground advantage; not high ground advantage — please be more careful when you read.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned that some casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
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I agree it's not just you. It's people like you who are upset that Blizzard is not implementing your suggestions and aren't playing a balanced beta that isn't even going to be released for another 3 months... Seriously what did you expect? It's been 2 weeks since they JUST STARTED nerfing the Infestor and you and other people are crying about how Blizzard doesn't know what they're doing and the game is going to suck... They still have 3 months lol. It's not the end of the world.
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On December 22 2012 03:21 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:10 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 02:59 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 02:20 death_vinegar wrote:On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad". the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it. Extremely well said. On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch. If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible. That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability. Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing. Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness". But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me. P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim. You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts. Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
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If you can't defend why you like some of the terrible design in SC 2 it probably doesn't have much going for it, just some emotional attachment that keeps it there sullying the game. Sometimes you need to make hard changes to make the game more enjoyable. I doubt a lot of the people that unabashedly praise and slurp up mismanaged mechanics like high ground ever played or cared about BW. People that suggest changes to SC 2 don't do so to hurt people's feelings or hurt the game. They do it for the exact opposite. Because the depth of the game and the skill set required to master it would increase for pros and stay the same for casual players. Browder has had his chance at remaking SC and it's all screwed up right now.
I hope they start listening to some of the mega threads with tons of great info on things that could help the game, but I honestly believe Blizzard is making this about egos and less about what's right for the game. I don't think they would ever consider adding in the reaver or a real high ground advantage for example. They think it would be some admittance that BW did it right and they didn't, when people like me couldn't care less about that. We care if they're willing to make the proper changes to improve the game, nothing else. I'd praise Browder and the team forever if they started making some of those changes just so we could TEST them for a couple months and see what develops.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302136
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379838
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325
People don't make these suggestions/threads/critiques/whatever because they think SC 2 is trash, they do it because they think it can be better.
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On December 22 2012 03:34 Serpico wrote:If you can't defend why you like some of the terrible design in SC 2 it probably doesn't have much going for it, just some emotional attachment that keeps it there sullying the game. Sometimes you need to make hard changes to make the game more enjoyable. I doubt a lot of the people that unabashedly praise and slurp up mismanaged mechanics like high ground ever played or cared about BW. People that suggest changes to SC 2 don't do so to hurt people's feelings or hurt the game. They do it for the exact opposite. Because the depth of the game and the skill set required to master it would increase for pros and stay the same for casual players. Browder has had his chance at remaking SC and it's all screwed up right now. I hope they start listening to some of the mega threads with tons of great info on things that could help the game, but I honestly believe Blizzard is making this about egos and less about what's right for the game. I don't think they would ever consider adding in the reaver or a real high ground advantage for example. They think it would be some admittance that BW did it right and they didn't, when people like me couldn't care less about that. We care if they're willing to make the proper changes to improve the game, nothing else. I'd praise Browder and the team forever if they started making some of those changes just so we could TEST them for a couple months and see what develops. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=321242http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=302136http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=379838http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=360325People don't make these suggestions/threads/critiques/whatever because they think SC 2 is trash, they do it because they think it can be better.
Just to be clear, I don’t think any of the blogs/post or their authors referenced above hate SC2 or think it is terrible. I enjoyed reading every one of those when they came out. I also don’t lump them into the group of people who are screaming at the rain, calling everything Blizzard does garbage. If anything, the second group copied many of the idea in those articles and used them as some sort of “proof” to back up their claims. I miss the days when people focused on how use the new changes to the units, rather than complaining that they couldn’t play the way they wanted to.
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On December 22 2012 01:03 Rider517 wrote:
this balance team should be fired.
from a cannon
into the sun
On December 22 2012 01:44 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:38 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On December 21 2012 13:33 Psychlone wrote:Remember people, we are dealing with the people who brought you the REPLICANT. + Show Spoiler + Haha now that I think about it, hots was presented at the last blizzcon, that was more than a year ago. Since then, they haven't progressed at all, and there is less than 3 months left until the release. I wonder what they've been doing in their offices 40hours/week beside "having fun while testing 10 range fungal". I wish blizzard had some competition regarding rts games. If you think HotS hasn't progressed since BlizzCon, you are off your rocker.
it has improved a lot. the bad news is that it started ridiculously low, from a base that looked like twelf year olds designed it.
it took all of the communities outrage to remove the worst unit ever conceived in the sc universe, and the lack to replace it with anything else leaves terran with another design failure and a unit that is basically a BW unit but posing as hard as possible not to be one
they didnt address any of the gaping holes in wol game design in 2 years and there is zero hope this will happen in the last 2 months of beta.
the only reason why hots seems such a step forward now is that wol just sucks and hots metagame is still very fresh, and that the first drafts we got to see of hots were a fucking abomination that scared everyone into thinking blizzard would just murder the whole franchise. now they used the communities ideas to turn it into something half good, thats what the progress from last blizzcon to now is.
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Why don't all tournaments join forces and make their own balance? Imo why not let kespa lead everything? Bla bla kespa is evil, well always gonna be better than Blizzard. 
Then you can't ladder anymore to practice? Well then the player base should start using custom maps. Let ladder die out. This would force blizzard to at least do something.
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On December 22 2012 02:43 The_Darkness wrote:
This is false. The majority of feedback on HoTS is along the lines of "1. Unit X has a design flaw. 2. Blizzard does not know what it's doing. 3. DK and DB are idiots. 4. We should go back to BW unit X." Most of it is pretty ridiculous and is hardly well argued. The only exception to this rule has been for Beta patches 8 and 9, where the community was very supportive.
This, a thousand times.
People are insulting Blizzard, calling them names, saying they have no clue, arguing it looks the game was made by children (implying you would have done better yourself) and so on and so forth. This is WRONG.
Even assuming these changes would have to be reverted, even assuming a given unit is bad for e-sport - even if we assumed that every point they list is actually detrimental to the game and doesn't have any positive effect whatsoever, that sort of insult would still be bullshit. If someone vilifies Blizzard by spouting the most horrible insults he can think of, that's not because Blizzard is that bad at making the game, but because that person is a jerk.
These reactions have nothing to do with balance, that's trash-talking for the sake of it.
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On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about. As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain. On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal. Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch. If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible. That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
I think most of the community is aware you can't just remove fungal, most want it changed not removed. If anything it's blizards history of extreme nerfing and removing rather than adjusting or strengthening counters that's led to that thinking where it does arise.
Some have been rude, because, well it's the internet, but the community generally has politely and constructively suggested a ton of workable ways fungal could be salvaged. However none of the good ones involve changing the numbers or method of delivery.
DB is very good at sounding reasonable while acting unreasonably, just recently (WCS maybe?) he gave an interview where he spent 5 minutes explaining and sounding excited about all the possibly great consequences of making fungal slow rather than pin before saying "but we don't think it'll make that much difference so we're not going to do that".
I don't think he could deliver a more infuriating message. "We know this is what you want and we think it would be great, but we're not going to, you can't make us."
However you look at it, it's bad design to have a spell from a cheapish mass producible unit that takes a group of units out of the battle that also does high damage vs all threats, air, ground, and reveals cloaked and burrowed. Making it less of a catch all means making it weak or inert against specific threats, which they just don't seem willing to consider. The one exception is the psionic immune thing which felt random and was never going to work without buffing something else in the zerg arsenal. Which is another fundamental issue, they're trying to fix something in isolation that's a key part of something bigger. Again a message they don't want to hear.
It's very hard to take game designers seriously that don't seem to understand the basics.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://hehpic.com/eD.jpg)
