EPTBeta Balance Update #10 - Page 68
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exog
Norway279 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote: What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch  | ||
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InVerno
258 Posts
On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote: What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. What about testing Flying Colossis ? Maybe can be a good thing, they can escape more easily etc etc It's a beta, why we don't give it a shot? /sarcasm Is this patch going trough the holidays? All my free time in holidays will be against brlolol-siegefestors? I mean... this thing needs a urgent fix.. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
@DustinBrowder May you just completely redesign fungal? The problem is chain fungal. Not the speed, not the range, etc... @Adashra I don't see why we can't tune it through balance. We still have lots of beta time left. But if we can't we will redesign. Good news i guess. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On December 21 2012 18:46 nihlon wrote: What baffles is not the changes to the infestor (people are overreacting like crazy) it's how blind Blizzard seems to be to the community's general opinion of the infestor. When they finally implement a change that might lessen the qq they buff it straight away? What the hell are they thinking? Yeah a lot of the time it is just QQ. See the first 20 odd pages of this thread. Before anyone had even played with and against the change, before the speed of the projectile was known, before any discussion was had for the reason why this change might have been made it was complaint after complaint. I kind of agree with you though. Even if the buff was necessary (maybe for ZvZ), Blizzard is dumb for doing it. The infestor has garnered so much hate that any buff will get looked down upon with hate. Honestly I think Blizzards best bet is to nerf the infestor into oblivion, balance around other Zerg tech paths, and then after release slowly buff the infestor back to usability again. This will hopefully placate the P and T players and get them playing again. | ||
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SmuZ
Romania45 Posts
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
On December 21 2012 18:58 Qikz wrote: What I don't get is Hydras/Mutas and Swarm Hosts are all perfectly fine. I've no idea why they buffed the infestor again since to fix ZvZ against mutas you just had to get some hydras and queens. The problem with Hydras vs Mutas is the mobility of the mutas. Meaning if the mutalisk player find the hydra player out of position, he can cost effectively pick off hydras, while he can just back off if there are too many hydras. The hydra player simply can not do this. The small margin of which hydras beat mutas does not make up for the inability to spread your army to deal with the mutas. I would suggest that instead of buffing infestors to solve this, the hydras needs to be more durable. They need to be able to put up a fight vs the mutas in a relatively low number. I argue for this since the durability of the hydra is already really low, and it could actually use a health buff and/or a supply buff. After saying this, some of you might think that buffing the durability of the hydra would make the roach/hydra/viper combination over powered. But that is simply not true. The only reason roach/hydra is viable is because of the viper. Think about the way the viper makes hydras viable in ZvP: Blinding cloud Either a blinding cloud is laid upon the opposing army, making the durability of the hydra irrelevant, or the army circumvents the blinding cloud and the hydras can be targeted. A small increase of durability will not make that big of a difference when the hydras can actually be attacked. Abduct Abducting one powerful (possibly AoE) unit into your swarm of hydras will make that unit disappear before it can do any real damage anyway. The durability of the hydra does not matter here either. What I'm trying to get to here is that a small increase in durability of the hydra will make little difference in most of the situations that arise, but would actually help fight mutas with a lower number of hydras. This is because Hydra vs Muta is one of the very few situations where the a hydra player actually wants his hydras to be targeted. | ||
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On December 21 2012 19:07 Insoleet wrote: Dustin said they are trying to fix fungle problems through balance. But if they cant, they'll redesign it. https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/281542501641375744 Good news i guess. The complicated thing with fungal is trying to find a good middle ground of where it's nice to have in an army but not where it's too good and you want to mass 20+ spellcasters (spellcasters should always be a support unit, a supplement to the troops, not the main army). | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 21 2012 19:09 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Yeah a lot of the time it is just QQ. See the first 20 odd pages of this thread. Before anyone had even played with and against the change, before the speed of the projectile was known, before any discussion was had for the reason why this change might have been made it was complaint after complaint. I kind of agree with you though. Even if the buff was necessary (maybe for ZvZ), Blizzard is dumb for doing it. The infestor has garnered so much hate that any buff will get looked down upon with hate. Honestly I think Blizzards best bet is to nerf the infestor into oblivion, balance around other Zerg tech paths, and then after release slowly buff the infestor back to usability again. This will hopefully placate the P and T players and get them playing again. I think the point is, that blizzard said things along the lines of "trying to get mass infestor styles out of the game" and "buff other units instead". The first part surely worked out for a periode of time, other problems (Mutas/Phoenix/Drops, Bio vZ) rose. That's exactly what is to be expected. So they buffed the Infestor again, instead of trying to fight them with other measures. Right now I feel like fungal should get back to WoL (8-9range + instant cast/or really fast projectile like EMP), but only do damage vs light while still rooting everything else. Maybe even buff it to 5seconds. It should be a really good counter to cheap units - that's the point of AoE. Also such spells should have utility vs most things. If other things become to strong (armored air, stalker, marauder), there is always room to make certain units be better vs them. In particular, something like -2-3damage/+4-6damage vs armored on the hydralisk might make it interesting for fullfilling such jobs as to combat roach/stalker/marauder/viking/Ultralisk/Voidray/Capitalships. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
10-15 infestor is the most you can do and thats fine. they should make fungal range 9 instant again and make it a slow instead of root but other than that infestor is now a viable unit but no more a mass unit. now you actually can build too many infestors because you dont want to get mass IT lategame now. you just want to have enough infestors for fungal and some IT so soak a bit of damage but as real damagedealer you need other units now. so the IT nerfs made it so that the infestor is very bad now in lategame if massed (15+) and more of a support unit that it should be. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On December 21 2012 20:33 Decendos wrote: what i dont get is that people actually think you can build 30-40 mass infestor style in HOTS. you just cant. IT do basically 0 damage to +3 armor units in lategame. the problem with the infestor massing was that the combination of fungal and IT was so strong. with IT getting 0 upgrades they do no damage and now even dont soak up much damage. so you just cant play mass infestor anymore. 10-15 infestor is the most you can do and thats fine. they should make fungal range 9 instant again and make it a slow instead of root but other than that infestor is now a viable unit but no more a mass unit. now you actually can build too many infestors because you dont want to get mass IT lategame now. you just want to have enough infestors for fungal and some IT so soak a bit of damage but as real damagedealer you need other units now. so the IT nerfs made it so that the infestor is very bad now in lategame if massed (15+) and more of a support unit that it should be. Thank GOD someone has sense. Late game, ITs only tickle. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 21 2012 21:59 tili wrote: Thank GOD someone has sense. Late game, ITs only tickle. This is quite true as far as massing goes. Fungal still is a bit unfun against groups of bio though where chainfungal demolishes it too easily, especially with new ultra's. One big thing about fungal (and also ff) is that it doesn't encourage poking and harassing much because you can't retreat. Maybe the missile speed changes that but I think the range and speed seem a litlte too high still. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 21 2012 22:16 Markwerf wrote: This is quite true as far as massing goes. Fungal still is a bit unfun against groups of bio though where chainfungal demolishes it too easily, especially with new ultra's. One big thing about fungal (and also ff) is that it doesn't encourage poking and harassing much because you can't retreat. Maybe the missile speed changes that but I think the range and speed seem a litlte too high still. yeah. thats why i suggested to make fungal a slow with range 9 and instant. so you can safe the units at the edge before 2nd fungal. projectile is very stupid imo since if its too slow blinkstalker and MMM become OP since zerg has not a single unit that trades cost efficient with MM + supervac and especially not vs blinkstalker (could be fine though if they finally start buffing hydras...). and btw: they should remove NP. its 100% useless now. and it is OP with range 9. i just feel its not balancable. if range is high enough to catch colossus etc. its OP, if its range 7 like now it just sucks. really hope they remove it and give infestor lockdown like ability: each unit catched with this single target ability disables its movement and attack for x amount of seconds. would be much more useful and be another SUPPORTspell and make infestor even more of a supportspellcaster instead of an "do-all" spellcaster. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
Fungal has no drawbacks and cannot be evaded once hit. The only danger is the infestor dying before or while casting. Now with range 10 that danger is significantly less. Fungal needs to be changed to a non-damage spell IMO. give it some good effects that have synergy with hydra/roach/bane/whatever. Or make it a special ability that disables all abilities and slows down, like preventing forcefields, psistorms, stim, healing etc. That would be something interesting that requires micro, tactics and unit synergy. Also I think a short-range neural parasite is great now that you can use vipers to pull in some units. This should be left this way to see if that works out. But seriously +1 range is such a big deal it's not even funny. Infestors can now chain fungal vikings outside of tank range. They can chain fungal toss deathballs without ever getting close to being hit etc. This is so dumb that it hurts. Literally. I'll have to go and play skyrim for a while. | ||
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Freeborn
Germany421 Posts
No way to dodge that. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
-remove the rooting effect entirely -fungal can be casted while burrowed -range 9, instant casting -fungal prevents spell casting from affected units I think infestors could then keep being strong where they're supposed to, while being more of a support unit. I'm any case I hope they go for a re-design rather than trying to balance it. Chain fungal is always going to be problematic. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 21 2012 23:42 MilesTeg wrote: When we look at things where the infestor is actually needed, I think the splash is actually the important part. What I would do is: -remove the rooting effect entirely -fungal can be casted while burrowed -range 9, instant casting -fungal prevents spell casting from affected units I think infestors could then keep being strong where they're supposed to, while being more of a support unit. I'm any case I hope they go for a re-design rather than trying to balance it. Chain fungal is always going to be problematic. Why do you want infestor to be able to cast fungle while burrowed ? Oo | ||
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leveller
Sweden1840 Posts
On December 21 2012 19:07 Insoleet wrote: Dustin said they are trying to fix fungle problems through balance. But if they cant, they'll redesign it. https://twitter.com/DustinBrowder/status/281542501641375744 Good news i guess. Good news? He just said, in simple terms, "no". | ||
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