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On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch 
Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign.
They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing.
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Since the infester is going in circle, can we please fix colossus?
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On December 21 2012 19:07 Insoleet wrote:Dustin said they are trying to fix fungle problems through balance. But if they cant, they'll redesign it. Show nested quote +@DustinBrowder May you just completely redesign fungal? The problem is chain fungal. Not the speed, not the range, etc... Show nested quote +@Adashra I don't see why we can't tune it through balance. We still have lots of beta time left. But if we can't we will redesign. Good news i guess.
As I expected and I think he is correct. It’s not the fact that is snares, it is the fact it can be cast over and over on the same group of targets. They should try making units immune to the snare for 8 seconds after the first hit. Or make the stun 2 second, but the damage lasts over 4. That stops the unit, but it cannot be reapplied until fungle ends.
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On December 21 2012 18:58 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +stupid fungal is stupid , i hate it , nerf it to oblivion and buff hydras/muta/other accordingly so zerg has a reliable midgame for gods love. What I don't get is Hydras/Mutas and Swarm Hosts are all perfectly fine. I've no idea why they buffed the infestor again
More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (except of course the roach). Aside from number balances issues the only major problem with HotS now is that mech isn't very viable, and yet they buff fungal and hardly touch anything else.
Fungal is basically supposed to be a support spell that makes Zerg armies devastatingly strong if it hits, and it should be a battle of skill between players where it can be dodged creating epic moments and all. Not 15 speed super range no risk.
On December 21 2012 23:59 bhfberserk wrote:
Since the infester is going in circle, can we please fix colossus?
"Colossus we like. The unit will not be cut." — Browder
It's the ego. That's the only reason the worst units/mechanics in the game from a design standpoint, the Colussus/Roach/Maurader/WG and all of the brain children of Blizzard's SC2 era team are immune to being removed despite them being toxic and hurting the quality of matches + eSports.
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More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
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The problem with fungal is not that it is OP, its with how it functions. Make it powerful some other way.. rooting for 4s is just plain retarded. Buff some other units.. Just get rid of that completely anti-micro spell.
There are other problem units for me, like the a-move collosus and the mine hitting air. But fungal tops them by a mile. It makes me vomit when I watch chain-fungal. Blizzard are ruining an otherwise great game with basically one annoying spell =(
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On December 22 2012 00:53 Protosnake wrote:Show nested quote +More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed ( It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
Not at all. Fungal's root + damage was not changed, and the ability to summon 200/200 IT will always be extremely strong even if they can't beat armies that actually cost money like they used to because of no upgrade scaling.
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this balance team should be fired.
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On December 22 2012 01:00 winsonsonho wrote:
The problem with fungal is not that it is OP, its with how it functions. Make it powerful some other way.. rooting for 4s is just plain retarded. Buff some other units.. Just get rid of that completely anti-micro spell.
There are other problem units for me, like the a-move collosus and the mine hitting air. But fungal tops them by a mile. It makes me vomit when I watch chain-fungal. Blizzard are ruining an otherwise great game with basically one annoying spell =(
I kinda what them to do something nuts, like have fungle interrupt the current command for the unit it hits, instead of rooting the unit. An interrupt would still stop units backing up until they received a new command. I don’t know how much it would change, but it would be more interesting that a root. Hell, even a half or quarter second “stun” would be more interesting, since the other play could instantly recover with good micro.
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On December 21 2012 20:02 Millet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 18:58 Qikz wrote:stupid fungal is stupid , i hate it , nerf it to oblivion and buff hydras/muta/other accordingly so zerg has a reliable midgame for gods love. What I don't get is Hydras/Mutas and Swarm Hosts are all perfectly fine. I've no idea why they buffed the infestor again since to fix ZvZ against mutas you just had to get some hydras and queens. The problem with Hydras vs Mutas is the mobility of the mutas. Meaning if the mutalisk player find the hydra player out of position, he can cost effectively pick off hydras, while he can just back off if there are too many hydras. The hydra player simply can not do this. The small margin of which hydras beat mutas does not make up for the inability to spread your army to deal with the mutas. I would suggest that instead of buffing infestors to solve this, the hydras needs to be more durable. They need to be able to put up a fight vs the mutas in a relatively low number. I argue for this since the durability of the hydra is already really low, and it could actually use a health buff and/or a supply buff. After saying this, some of you might think that buffing the durability of the hydra would make the roach/hydra/viper combination over powered. But that is simply not true. The only reason roach/hydra is viable is because of the viper. Think about the way the viper makes hydras viable in ZvP: Blinding cloudEither a blinding cloud is laid upon the opposing army, making the durability of the hydra irrelevant, or the army circumvents the blinding cloud and the hydras can be targeted. A small increase of durability will not make that big of a difference when the hydras can actually be attacked. AbductAbducting one powerful (possibly AoE) unit into your swarm of hydras will make that unit disappear before it can do any real damage anyway. The durability of the hydra does not matter here either. What I'm trying to get to here is that a small increase in durability of the hydra will make little difference in most of the situations that arise, but would actually help fight mutas with a lower number of hydras. This is because Hydra vs Muta is one of the very few situations where the a hydra player actually wants his hydras to be targeted.
I actually played a couple zvzs for the first time on HoTS (I was a masters Z in WOL and then switched to Terran for fun). It is totally obnoxious and "feels" like you have no choice but to go mutas. They are so fast now and completely undeterred by spores since they can go in snipe a couple drones, a queen or whatever and then regenerate their health. Leaving your base unless you have more mutas than your opponent is a terrifying prospect. Even if WOL infestors with insta-cast fungal were in HoTS i'm not sure it would help much. they need to revert the fungal changes and make the muta regen ability an upgrade for the good of zvz. I obviously could be wrong but it seems like there are now tremendous incentives to go muta and if you successfully go muta you should be way ahead of your opponent unless he also went muta. If everyone is forced to go muta that match up will be a shit stain on Kerrigan's underwear IMO.
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On December 22 2012 01:00 winsonsonho wrote:
The problem with fungal is not that it is OP, its with how it functions. Make it powerful some other way.. rooting for 4s is just plain retarded. Buff some other units.. Just get rid of that completely anti-micro spell.
There are other problem units for me, like the a-move collosus and the mine hitting air. But fungal tops them by a mile. It makes me vomit when I watch chain-fungal. Blizzard are ruining an otherwise great game with basically one annoying spell =(
well 3 annoying spells. vortex and FF are pretty much the same retarded. vortex got removed at least. hope they really fix fungal to a slow and change FF but well...its blizzard. they even introduced another anti micro spell with timewarp...
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On December 22 2012 01:07 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:00 winsonsonho wrote:
The problem with fungal is not that it is OP, its with how it functions. Make it powerful some other way.. rooting for 4s is just plain retarded. Buff some other units.. Just get rid of that completely anti-micro spell.
There are other problem units for me, like the a-move collosus and the mine hitting air. But fungal tops them by a mile. It makes me vomit when I watch chain-fungal. Blizzard are ruining an otherwise great game with basically one annoying spell =( well 3 annoying spells. vortex and FF are pretty much the same retarded. vortex got removed at least. hope they really fix fungal to a slow and change FF but well...its blizzard. they even introduced another anti micro spell with timewarp...
Slows are not nearly as bad a roots or really short stuns. Time warp is not nearly as effective as FF or fungle and is more terrain dependant, from what I have seen. It is neat to use it to delay a push or to fall back safely. With the MSC and nexus cannon, I think you will see protoss using FF less as they build few sentries. Personally, I would rather invest my gas is cooler, more aggressive units.
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On December 22 2012 01:07 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:00 winsonsonho wrote:
The problem with fungal is not that it is OP, its with how it functions. Make it powerful some other way.. rooting for 4s is just plain retarded. Buff some other units.. Just get rid of that completely anti-micro spell.
There are other problem units for me, like the a-move collosus and the mine hitting air. But fungal tops them by a mile. It makes me vomit when I watch chain-fungal. Blizzard are ruining an otherwise great game with basically one annoying spell =( well 3 annoying spells. vortex and FF are pretty much the same retarded. vortex got removed at least. hope they really fix fungal to a slow and change FF but well...its blizzard. they even introduced another anti micro spell with timewarp...
I'm glad too that Vortex is gone, and FF is also too anti-micro and needs HP or something.. I really hope that now that Protoss has better defence they will do something about FFs. However, FFs are often used defensively and don't cause any casualties at all. I'm ok with this, but as an anti-micro aggressive spell it is also a big problem. Lastly, it is not as easy to abuse as fungal is.
All I know is that priority 1 should be fungal redesign.
EDIT: Fixed some retarded drunken English..
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On December 22 2012 01:03 Rider517 wrote:
this balance team should be fired.
I agree 100%... How to do that ? simply not by HOTS... For me to by hots or in future LoV they need to fix pathing colloss Force fealds Fungel ...after that i would by game this is not worth my many...WC3 have 2 formation pathing and Battle net turnaments clans ...Turnaments icons LAN... this is not blizzard this is Activision blizzard...
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On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing.
I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
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On December 21 2012 13:33 Psychlone wrote:Remember people, we are dealing with the people who brought you the REPLICANT. + Show Spoiler +
Haha now that I think about it, hots was presented at the last blizzcon, that was more than a year ago. Since then, they haven't progressed at all, and there is less than 3 months left until the release. I wonder what they've been doing in their offices 40hours/week beside "having fun while testing 10 range fungal".
I wish blizzard had some competition regarding rts games.
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On December 22 2012 01:38 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Haha now that I think about it, hots was presented at the last blizzcon, that was more than a year ago. Since then, they haven't progressed at all, and there is less than 3 months left until the release. I wonder what they've been doing in their offices 40hours/week beside "having fun while testing 10 range fungal". I wish blizzard had some competition regarding rts games.
If you think HotS hasn't progressed since BlizzCon, you are off your rocker.
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On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote:On December 21 2012 18:58 exog wrote:
What a circle-jerk of crybabies... Its a beta. They test stuff. We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign. They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing. I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
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On December 22 2012 01:44 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 01:38 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On December 21 2012 13:33 Psychlone wrote:Remember people, we are dealing with the people who brought you the REPLICANT. + Show Spoiler + Haha now that I think about it, hots was presented at the last blizzcon, that was more than a year ago. Since then, they haven't progressed at all, and there is less than 3 months left until the release. I wonder what they've been doing in their offices 40hours/week beside "having fun while testing 10 range fungal". I wish blizzard had some competition regarding rts games. If you think HotS hasn't progressed since BlizzCon, you are off your rocker.
From my very biased terran point I view, I remember browder say something about mech to be viable in TvP, or favouring positional tank play with the addition of mines, promoting late tier units like BC's (and make the thor more fearsome vs ground) and adding an anti-air factory unit that would replace the thor. 14 months later, what about that ? Also, even if it wasn't a problem in october 2011, something else than infestors as your core army would be nice, because obviously it won't be fixed by increasing the fungal range from 8 to 10.
I don't think I'm as nuts as you mean when I say that hots looks more like an alpha than an almost done beta.
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The problem with the infestor is tha tis just counters every unit in the game. I don't get why that was not OK with the ghost but it's ok for zerg. Casters are supposed to be support units, not mass units. Remember the defiler, science vessel back in the day? A zerg should hve 1-2 festors per army.
Several options:
- Remove IT, it will make massing festors useless.
- Remove fungal root. Chain fungaling is just lame.
- Reduce infestor HP and radius. Make them squishier.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://hehpic.com/eD.jpg)
