More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:
On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote:
On December 21 2012 19:00 Dodgin wrote: [quote]
We already tested a game where Fungal Growth is really good, It's called the past 6-8 months for Wings of Liberty. The conclusion was we didn't like it. Just make Zerg good without having Fungal be good, we were on the right track before this patch
Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign.
They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing.
I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
It doesn't matter if you don't agree. You can say, "I enjoy the Colossus" or "I enjoy Fungal Growth" all you want, and it's fine if you do, but you have yet to present an argument for why these aren't absolutely horrific for SC2 as a spectator and competitive e-sport. Two arguments actually have to be present for there to be two sides to an argument, which would avoid consensus. There are countless well thought-out, logical, cohesive arguments for why these are bad, and until someone can give a well thought-out, logical, cohesive argument for why they aren't, then it stands that it is more or less a consensus among those that care enough to discuss these things.
More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:
On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote: [quote]
Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign.
They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing.
I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
It doesn't matter if you don't agree. You can say, "I enjoy the Colossus" or "I enjoy Fungal Growth" all you want, and it's fine if you do, but you have yet to present an argument for why these aren't absolutely horrific for SC2 as a spectator and competitive e-sport. Two arguments actually have to be present for there to be two sides to an argument, which would avoid consensus. There are countless well thought-out, logical, cohesive arguments for why these are bad, and until someone can give a well thought-out, logical, cohesive argument for why they aren't, then it stands that it is more or less a consensus among those that care enough to discuss these things.
You see, this is my problem with making an argument in the internet. You end up arguing against this larger meta-argument that is so large and unknownable that it is almost impossible to respond to. People just assume you are totally binary and you are some sort omni-fan that supports everything Blizzard does, without conditions.
I never said I liked fungle or thought it was a good spell. I didn’t think it would be bad when they first buffed it over a year ago, but hind sight is 20/20. I never said I liked the current change when they set it to range 10. In fact, fungle is one of the reasons my viewership of SC2 dropped off, because I do agree it is boring to watch and sucks the excitement out of engagements. I don’t think the colossi does this as much, I find it about as interesting as a siege tank to watch, if we are going to rate them on view-ability.
What I was arguing was the Blizzard was testing things and that I felt confident that they will nerf fungle to the point where it is not used as much. Pointed out that SC2 has never had a projectile(EMP is almost instant) in the game and they messing with the numbers to see what is broken and what isn’t.
People really need to ditch whole “If your not with us, your against us” point of view. There are parts of SC2 I don’t like, but I don’t threaten to cancel my preorder every time there is a balance change.
On a different note, how is everyone finding the new seeker missile? Personally, I have found it a very poor replacement for the old seeker missile. It does not feel nearly as good and I always seem to require more ravens than I used to with the WOL seeker missile. I'm most disappointed with this change as the raven was my favourite unit in WOL.
More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote:
On December 21 2012 23:58 Evangelist wrote: [quote]
Yes and then they changed it and infestors were beyond terrible. Now they've buffed it a bit, probably too much. If they can't find the right numbers, they'll redesign.
They won't listen to you if all you do is insult their design team like most of this thread is doing.
I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
It doesn't matter if you don't agree. You can say, "I enjoy the Colossus" or "I enjoy Fungal Growth" all you want, and it's fine if you do, but you have yet to present an argument for why these aren't absolutely horrific for SC2 as a spectator and competitive e-sport. Two arguments actually have to be present for there to be two sides to an argument, which would avoid consensus. There are countless well thought-out, logical, cohesive arguments for why these are bad, and until someone can give a well thought-out, logical, cohesive argument for why they aren't, then it stands that it is more or less a consensus among those that care enough to discuss these things.
There's no reason to respond to him. He understands that he lost after thinking of his reply to my last post, but he's choosing not to admit it; ironically similar to what Blizzard has been doing in regards to some of their poorly designed units and mechanics.
Seriously, just make it back to range 9, not a projectile, and change it to a 50% or even 75% slow and call it a fucking day. That's all that needs to be done to fungal, make it not freeze units -_-
LOL
How could something so ridiculous get past the office? At this point I really don't see how Blizzard could not have a hidden agenda. "Mech is in an rather nonviable state vs anything but non-mirror... sounds like a great time to do nothing about it and buff fungal to stronger than WoL!"
You know what gets me the most about it? David kim or browder (I can't recall which) quoted as saying "that isn't even that fast". That's what absolutely blows my mind.
Also since this patch I am almost only playing exclusively zvz now because nobody wants to deal with the STRONGER fungal then in WoL. I don't blame terrans/tosses who stopped playing the beta, with the new infestor I am tempted to stop playing as a zerg till it's nerfed so that I can get non zvz's again.
Oh I feel for you. I try to play them all, but I imagine just ZvZ gets really dull.
More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote: [quote] I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
It doesn't matter if you don't agree. You can say, "I enjoy the Colossus" or "I enjoy Fungal Growth" all you want, and it's fine if you do, but you have yet to present an argument for why these aren't absolutely horrific for SC2 as a spectator and competitive e-sport. Two arguments actually have to be present for there to be two sides to an argument, which would avoid consensus. There are countless well thought-out, logical, cohesive arguments for why these are bad, and until someone can give a well thought-out, logical, cohesive argument for why they aren't, then it stands that it is more or less a consensus among those that care enough to discuss these things.
You see, this is my problem with making an argument in the internet. You end up arguing against this larger meta-argument that is so large and unknownable that it is almost impossible to respond to. People just assume you are totally binary and you are some sort omni-fan that supports everything Blizzard does, without conditions.
I never said I liked fungle or thought it was a good spell. I didn’t think it would be bad when they first buffed it over a year ago, but hind sight is 20/20. I never said I liked the current change when they set it to range 10. In fact, fungle is one of the reasons my viewership of SC2 dropped off, because I do agree it is boring to watch and sucks the excitement out of engagements. I don’t think the colossi does this as much, I find it about as interesting as a siege tank to watch, if we are going to rate them on view-ability.
What I was arguing was the Blizzard was testing things and that I felt confident that they will nerf fungle to the point where it is not used as much. Pointed out that SC2 has never had a projectile(EMP is almost instant) in the game and they messing with the numbers to see what is broken and what isn’t.
People really need to ditch whole “If your not with us, your against us” point of view. There are parts of SC2 I don’t like, but I don’t threaten to cancel my preorder every time there is a balance change.
Well said.
Wait, I forgot what thread I was in, let me try that again:
What gets me is that Blizzard know how infuriated people are with fungal, yet they still went and made it more powerful than it ever used to be. If they wanted to test 10 range 15 speed they should have kept it internal for a lot longer. They should have known many of us would go mad. Many had renewed faith in Blizzard, but now they just lost a lot of those they'd won over. Really silly if you ask me.
They could always have tested making it a slow or some other change and reverted it if it didn't work.However they are too stubborn and egotistical to try out ideas that a large part of their community really believe are better designed. Blizzard are shooting themselves in the foot, and people are rightly going crazy because some of their changes have been so counterproductive and infuriating to witness.
If Blizzard were more open with us and explained their plans it would be easier to sympathise with them. For instance: "Because ITs are weaker and short range projectile fungal is bad we're going to try this new buff to fungal. If it proves too strong we will redesign how fungal works.." They need to be more transparent with their community, because at the moment it seems like they enjoy their position if power and their ability to anger so many people..
More or less this. It was the most arbitrary time ever to randomly buff fungal considering all of Zerg's mid-game tech paths were buffed (
It wasnt arbitrary, the Infestor was a straight up bad unit and this had to get fixed, having decent midgame options next to it doesnt change anything to that
the eternal crime of the WoL infestor will be its legacy. zergs cannot function without it anymore, their skills in other areas of the game have plummeted as a result and any replacement or tuning that results in anything less that the low skill ceiling game breaking domination of the WoL infestor will seem "bad".
the slow projectile HotS infestor was still one of the best units in the game, with its ability to do damage to and hold huge chunks of an army in place, as well as ITs + neural parasite, but due to it paling in comparison with the WoL infestor, it will always seem weak to those who relied on it.
Extremely well said.
On December 22 2012 02:30 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 02:15 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:
On December 22 2012 01:35 mostevil wrote: [quote] I love the concept that if you're nice to them and gently hint at what they should do they'll stop being terrible at their jobs. It's been tried. It didn't work, they do something half decent for a day or two, everyone gets excited then they go back to what they were doing wrong before. At least insulting them makes us feel better about them destroying something we all care about.
As someone who works on settlement negotiations all the time(settled two cases at work today in fact), being polite and reasonable always gets you farther than insulting people. Playing “hard ball” rarely works out only makes people dig in their heels more. Screaming like an irrational person and insulting everyone involved with the process gets you nothing. I am sure Blizzard is listening to all the constructive criticism they are getting and ignoring the people who are screaming at the rain.
On Teamliquid the majority of our feedback (as in the threads we've made) toward Blizzard, even concerning this beta, have been constructive, well-written, and extremely analytical; it's just best to consider them incompetent at this point. There's no other reasonable explanation for the makers of the Replicant™ and 10 range fungal.
Sure there is, I have the simplest explanation for the change. They would rather test something than assume the outcome. There is no harm done by trying something out in a beta to see if it works, not matter what the community says. They update almost weekly and I am sure they will be changing fungle in the next patch.
If you follow DB on twitter and read his replies to comments about fungle, they want to balance the ability and make it less of a catch all. However, he freely admits that it may be impossible.
That is the difference between Blizzard and the community. The community wants things that they perceive as broken removed. Blizzard wants to test them to see if they can be salvaged or turned into a reasonable ability.
Not quite. There's a difference between being open minded and introducing toxic to the game because they don't know what they're doing.
Blizzard was not being "open-minded" by adding Warp Gates, Collosuss, Roaches, and a diminished high ground advantage. Blizzard is not "attempting to salvage" by buffing fungal when it doesn't need it, and leaving fundamental mech problems (that have at least 10-20 detailed write-ups) untouched. You can't excuse incompetence as "open-mindness".
But I don't agree with you or the "community" on any of those subjects. I don't have a problem with warpgate, colossus or roaches. I don't have a problem with highground advantage. And there are tons of people like me at every skill level. For every well worded argument against those units, there are people who enjoy them or don't care. Your definition of incompetence is not agreeing with and listening the people who have the same point of view as me.
P.S. Please stop editing your argument after you post something. It is really irritating to respond to what you say and then find that you have edited the argument further, adding further "proof" to your claim.
You're free to disagree with what you like, but the communities stances on toxic units and mechanics are all backed by objective evidence in regards to universal game design theory with an emphasis on RTS specific concepts.
Nobody is concerned some that casuals think the Colossus, Warp Gate, and Roaches are cool and don't think critically enough to see that they're a poorly designed units and mechanics. I'm not sure what your point is.
But that is not the ponit of the view of the entire community, just the people who's point of view matches your own. You should stop assuming everyone agrees with you. Your point of view does not represent the entire player base of SC2. There are as many, if not more people who disagree with you on a number of subjects. Implying that I am a "casual"(I don't even know what that word means any more) does not make your argument stronger or more correct.
PS. Damn you, you did it again. Stop editting your posts after the fact and not even putting in an edit tag or referencing what you changed.
It doesn't matter if you don't agree. You can say, "I enjoy the Colossus" or "I enjoy Fungal Growth" all you want, and it's fine if you do, but you have yet to present an argument for why these aren't absolutely horrific for SC2 as a spectator and competitive e-sport. Two arguments actually have to be present for there to be two sides to an argument, which would avoid consensus. There are countless well thought-out, logical, cohesive arguments for why these are bad, and until someone can give a well thought-out, logical, cohesive argument for why they aren't, then it stands that it is more or less a consensus among those that care enough to discuss these things.
There's no reason to respond to him. He understands that he lost after thinking of his reply to my last post, but he's choosing not to admit it; ironically similar to what Blizzard has been doing in regards to some of their poorly designed units and mechanics.
You should focus less on "winning" your conversation with him. Calling him a casual and devaluing his differing opinion has no bearing on the universal truth that destructive criticism doesn't accomplish a thing.
I just don't understand how hard of a fix this is.
Change Fungal to 2 separate spells: 1) fungal = DOT in an area where units that go in that area are damaged but can move out - just like storm. 2) Root = spell that roots armies or slows them when hit for a period of time to allow zergling/ultra surrounds.
Right now when the infestors get to critical mass - their is SO much energy for chain fungals. They need to separate out the 2 abilities of fungal causing more energy to be burned to do both parts of the spell just like how forcefield and storm are not in the same spell.
Infestors should be changed back down to: Range 9 just like HT Fungal Growth - DOT spell Fungal Root - stop for 1 second / slow for 3 seconds something like that. Infested terrans
With those 3 abilities - infestors are still very powerful; but they are a support unit and not a whole freakin army by themselves like they are now.
You never see toss walk onto the map with 2 units - HT's and Collossus. You shouldn't have any army be a all-powerful army with just 2 freakin units (aka Blords / infestor play.).
This doesn't even touch on my problem with Zerg having infested terrans, and broodlings which can bring their max supply up to somewhere around 240/200. This doesn't even count for the HOTS units where you are getting more non-supply free units attacking you. Zerg will have supply of something like 260/200.
How about changing fungal to be unable to kill anything, kind of like plague. They do their damage but only until 1 hp. That way, investors become much more of a support unit.
On December 22 2012 10:04 RavenLoud wrote: How about changing fungal to be unable to kill anything, kind of like plague. They do their damage but only until 1 hp. That way, investors become much more of a support unit.
I do agree with this if it removed the root or made it a slow, but your spelling mistake made me want to post since it made me laugh so much. :p
Hey guys lets buff Terran and make them decent and then nerf them twice in a row. Very disappointing, what is even the point of using mines anymore. Terran needs another new unit.
the game NEEDS to be balanced with a non-rooting fungal.
Due to the faster gameplay/pace of Sc2 and easier ability to move entire armies, rooting cannot be balanced in SC2 (while it was balanced in BW)
Step 1 for blizzard) remove root from fungal
Step 2) balance the game while never adding a root or slow to fungal ever again
BOOM. thats all blizzard should be concentrating on. I dont care how hard step 2 is, MAKE IT HAPPEN. buff anything on zerg, hydras, swarmhosts, anything, I dont care.
I dont even care if zerg becomes more overpowered. Thats not the point
SC2 had massive declines in viewership I garuntee some of that was because of fungal alone.
Fungal created HORRIBLE gameplay 10x worse than the problems collossi causes
I don't get how the fact that fungal don't root solve any balance problem?
1) Your marines will still get easily splashed by baneling , rooted or not. If you already know how to split (before infestor get in range) that will not affect terran players, even a bit. 2) If we consider the BL + Infestor combo vs protoss, the stalkers will still be unable to blink with fungal and will get stuck by broodling and terran egg. Same problem. Maybe you'll flee more easily, getting the zerg waste mana on their infestor but you'll just let your base getting crush by broodling and infested terran instead of getting your army crushed, imho same shit.
If think the missile thing with around 10 movement speed and 9 range + Infested terran nerf is enough. Can't wait to see all these tl theorycrafter watch their answer to infestor imbalance get absolutely crushed by reality. Please blizzard remove root from infestor , and get it slows units, that will not change a thing, people will be so sad and maybe will stop complaining. As zerg we played with 3 range roaches , that was bad and we weren't as much complaining as everyone now.
I understand complaint about the fact that Void Ray doesn't fit in any role, same for phenix, battlecruiser and others air units but really it's annoying to see so many post against infestor written by the same people that want the tank to get more dmg (wut?!) and/or 13 range 130 splashdmg unavoidable seeker missile...
On December 22 2012 12:01 Jumonji wrote: I don't get how the fact that fungal don't root solve any balance problem?
1) Your marines will still get easily splashed by baneling , rooted or not. If you already know how to split (before infestor get in range) that will not affect terran players, even a bit. 2) If we consider the BL + Infestor combo vs protoss, the stalkers will still be unable to blink with fungal and will get stuck by broodling and terran egg. Same problem. Maybe you'll flee more easily, getting the zerg waste mana on their infestor but you'll just let your base getting crush by broodling and infested terran instead of getting your army crushed, imho same shit.
If think the missile thing with around 10 movement speed and 9 range + Infested terran nerf is enough. Can't wait to see all these tl theorycrafter watch their answer to infestor imbalance get absolutely crushed by reality. Please blizzard remove root from infestor , and get it slows units, that will not change a thing, people will be so sad and maybe will stop complaining. As zerg we played with 3 range roaches , that was bad and we weren't as much complaining as everyone now.
I understand complaint about the fact that Void Ray doesn't fit in any role, same for phenix, battlecruiser and others air units but really it's annoying to see so many post against infestor written by the same people that want the tank to get more dmg (wut?!) and/or 13 range 130 splashdmg unavoidable seeker missile...
don't think you understand the difference between design/balance.
On December 19 2012 06:21 spbelky wrote: So what I'm reading is... Mech still sucks vs. P and is borderline vs. Z. edit: and Infestorcraft is going to make a comeback.
That's Blizzards history with the Terran. Make them appear strong then nerf them little by little until they are the most difficult and least played race. God forbid they ever have a unit they dont need to micro and have their eye on 24/7 or else they die in 2 seconds.
On December 22 2012 12:01 Jumonji wrote: I don't get how the fact that fungal don't root solve any balance problem?
1) Your marines will still get easily splashed by baneling , rooted or not. If you already know how to split (before infestor get in range) that will not affect terran players, even a bit. 2) If we consider the BL + Infestor combo vs protoss, the stalkers will still be unable to blink with fungal and will get stuck by broodling and terran egg. Same problem. Maybe you'll flee more easily, getting the zerg waste mana on their infestor but you'll just let your base getting crush by broodling and infested terran instead of getting your army crushed, imho same shit.
If think the missile thing with around 10 movement speed and 9 range + Infested terran nerf is enough. Can't wait to see all these tl theorycrafter watch their answer to infestor imbalance get absolutely crushed by reality. Please blizzard remove root from infestor , and get it slows units, that will not change a thing, people will be so sad and maybe will stop complaining. As zerg we played with 3 range roaches , that was bad and we weren't as much complaining as everyone now.
I understand complaint about the fact that Void Ray doesn't fit in any role, same for phenix, battlecruiser and others air units but really it's annoying to see so many post against infestor written by the same people that want the tank to get more dmg (wut?!) and/or 13 range 130 splashdmg unavoidable seeker missile...
sorry when i said fungal dont root, i meant it also doesnt stop blink either
as to your points
1) alright, so you admit removing root on fungal does not nerf zerg at all against terran. GREAT. then lets get to it, remove the root on fungal, and then keep nerfing zerg until terran has a chance to win against an equal-skilled zerg opponent.
Just to clarify, I actually TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY 100% agree with you. I do agree with you that ultimately removing the root on fungal isnt that "big" of a nerf as some people might think, but would you say that it is at least a start in the right direction???
2) as i said above, i meant fungal also will no longer stop blink. so blink stalkers will be alot stronger against zerg. if this makes protoss too strong against zerg, then blizzard should buff ANYTHING other than fungal to fix the problem. blizzard can buff burrowed roaches or hydras or mutas or ultralisks to help with blink stalkers, ANYTHING other than fungal
by the way, i said that root should be removed from fungal WITHOUT adding any kind of slow. I dont think fungal should slow OR root, the damage is good enough
On December 22 2012 11:04 Scila wrote: Hey guys lets buff Terran and make them decent and then nerf them twice in a row. Very disappointing, what is even the point of using mines anymore. Terran needs another new unit.
Agreed. What ever happend to reworking the warhound? Obviously it was overpowered at the time, but I feel they threw out the baby with the bathwater...I'm sick of existing T1 being upgraded to compensate for Terran's shortcomings in HOTS. Frankly, it feels like a copout on the the developers side.
EPT
