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Pookie Monster
Do you have any replays against mass immortals? I do not mean some immortals supported by gateway units. I mean mass immortals produced 3 at a time supported by gateway units. So far no mech composition I have tried has worked vs mass immortals.
Immortals only cost 100 gas each so it is not possible to have enough gas for enough Ghosts and Thors to beat them until very late game.
As a mech player I find that:
1. Mass Tempest are hard but possible to beat
2. Mass Carriers with Tempest support is even harder to beat.
3. Mass immortal mid-game push can not be defeated if you go mech, given equal skill.
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Every P I play is now going for mass Tempest+Carriers.I stay 20 mins on tanks+hellbat+banshee and than should run and go for Thors+Vikings+Ravens,suiciding tanks,mines and hellions to free supply because P just doesnt attack and I cant harass because of cannons and Tempest defending 3 base at one time without expose them...
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So I just watched one replay vs the "mass tempest" guy. It looked like the Protoss had no clue what he was doing -_-
And your build is was very bad because you opened 1/1/1 but had zero units except for 1 tech labbed factory building 1 thor...then the Protoss just sorta randomly builds units, doesn't build any walls vs hellion harrass, and builds like 2 immortals total -_- This build basically dies to any 1 base Protoss aggression, or even tiny pokes @_@
I'm not saying this unit composition or using thors doesn't have potential, it's definitely more viable in general...but some of these games the protosses you played just had no clue what they were doing.
Also, tempests do shut down mech pretty hardcore if you have no vikings. The ravens are really good vs tempest though if you can manage to get enough energy for PDDS like you had.
Like i said, the protoss you played on that large map where he started to make a lot of tempests but had like 2 immortals...he had no idea what he was doing lol.
I don't think you can go mech reliably without siege tanks (you need the splash) because a Protoss that actually knows what they're doing is going to build zero zealots and go pure blink stalker or chargelot/archon/immortal into tech switches.
Imo you should try this same strategy/unit comp but do it with a more solid opening, like even a 1 rax expand or a 1/1/1 with a lot more marines involved otherwise you're gonna die to a lot of stuff imo. 1 tech labbed factory as your only production is just really bad =/ i mean it's perfectly fine if the Protoss is playing completely and utterly passive but that's just complete blind luck and if you're playing ladder you won't know 100% if your opponent is going to do that or not.
Oh, one other thing, i think if you're going to do this style you should get the +armor mech upgrades instead of the attack
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On December 14 2012 10:08 ant-1 wrote:
With the buff (energy bar removal) I'm sure thors are a viable option now. The thing is, blizzard seem to be praying that toss find a counter because the energy bar was put again for a reason. And I don't see a viable counter in HotS to make mass thors manageable : voids are better sure, but thor's anti-air kill them pretty fast (and mariners). Tempest just lost their bonus versus massive ground.
I think it's only a matter of time until someone pulls off a Thorzain.
The counter is immortals. The enetgy bar was returned because 250mm guns on cooldown only completely shut down immortals. Now that that's gone immortals work vs thors.
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You should check Naama's mech vs P in WoL. He goes hellion/tank/banshee and later to tank/banshee/BC and I can say that that its very powerfull. Why so many dont build banshees or/and bc with their tanks? It just makes army much better. (and yeah, ofc he had ghosts, you should always have ghost with mech)
It was so funny to see like 40 stalker and 20 immortal get owned by tank/bc/banshee :D
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Give the tank a shield piercing passive so it does 50 damage to shields like BW tank. Make it do like 35 to hardened shields so immortals can still deal with mass tanks
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I think it's telling that in this "Discussion of Tankless Mech in HotS", people are discussing tanks almost exclusively.
Let's pretend for a moment that you like tank-based play. If "tankless mech" is viable, couldn't you use this to open a window to make tanks. For an analogy, some protosses prefer HT in WoL PvT. Those protosses still go for Colossus (most of the time) if they believe it likely that an early push will occur before HT are ready. In this same way, couldn't a person open with "tankless mech" as a means of getting up the infrastructure to create tanks, and the upgrades for tanks - but in a way that doesn't have the fragility of mid-game tanks in low(-ish) numbers?
Now, let's pretend for a moment that you were really only looking for a factory-based army, and whether it's Tanks or Thors, you'll be happy just to have the alternative to bio. This thread is full of absolutely nothing for you. The most insightful bit so far is avilo's suggestion above that the testing provided may not have been against sufficiently high-level players to be conclusive.
Whether you believe mech must absolutely be tank-based or not, can we all agree that when Terran units such as the Thor, Widow Mine or Raven are improved, there is the potential for us to use this to get to whatever kind of army we want more easily? How about we discuss that instead of semantics.
On topic, as a protoss player, I think Thor-hellion could be scary. You need Immortals or air to deal with them in any kind of cost effectivfe way.
1. With air, you must either build a fleet beacon (which leaves you exposed for a bit) or you must use smaller scale units (like phoenixes or Voids) to deflect pushes. In large armies, in order to do this effectively, you must split your air units very well or splash damage will rip them apart (even just 20 damage splashed amongst just 3 or 4 units is a ton of splash damage). Once fleet beacon is finished, both Carriers and Tempests make decent responses to thors, but neither does particularly high dps.
2. With Immortals, you need to worry about EMP. An EMP-ed Immortal is a thor which deals 74% of the damage of the Thor, and has half its health. By contrast, in theory a unit which does 100% of a Thor's damage and has half health should be half the cost and supply (150/100/3) - and even then is slightly worse than the Thor. In other words, a few ghosts can make large numbers of Thors effective against large numbers of Immortals. The shield does matter.
I'm not saying there's nothing a protoss player can do to counteract this, but I think many people are underestimating the Thor in TvP right now because of just how bad feedback/charge zealot was against them. Now that feedback isn't useful and hellbats deal so well with zealots....
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On December 15 2012 03:22 Treehead wrote:
I think it's telling that in this "Discussion of Tankless Mech in HotS", people are discussing tanks almost exclusively.
Let's pretend for a moment that you like tank-based play. If "tankless mech" is viable, couldn't you use this to open a window to make tanks. For an analogy, some protosses prefer HT in WoL PvT. Those protosses still go for Colossus (most of the time) if they believe it likely that an early push will occur before HT are ready. In this same way, couldn't a person open with "tankless mech" as a means of getting up the infrastructure to create tanks, and the upgrades for tanks - but in a way that doesn't have the fragility of mid-game tanks in low(-ish) numbers?
Now, let's pretend for a moment that you were really only looking for a factory-based army, and whether it's Tanks or Thors, you'll be happy just to have the alternative to bio. This thread is full of absolutely nothing for you. The most insightful bit so far is avilo's suggestion above that the testing provided may not have been against sufficiently high-level players to be conclusive.
Whether you believe mech must absolutely be tank-based or not, can we all agree that when Terran units such as the Thor, Widow Mine or Raven are improved, there is the potential for us to use this to get to whatever kind of army we want more easily? How about we discuss that instead of semantics.
On topic, as a protoss player, I think Thor-hellion could be scary. You need Immortals or air to deal with them in any kind of cost effectivfe way.
1. With air, you must either build a fleet beacon (which leaves you exposed for a bit) or you must use smaller scale units (like phoenixes or Voids) to deflect pushes. In large armies, in order to do this effectively, you must split your air units very well or splash damage will rip them apart (even just 20 damage splashed amongst just 3 or 4 units is a ton of splash damage). Once fleet beacon is finished, both Carriers and Tempests make decent responses to thors, but neither does particularly high dps.
2. With Immortals, you need to worry about EMP. An EMP-ed Immortal is a thor which deals 74% of the damage of the Thor, and has half its health. By contrast, in theory a unit which does 100% of a Thor's damage and has half health should be half the cost and supply (150/100/3) - and even then is slightly worse than the Thor. In other words, a few ghosts can make large numbers of Thors effective against large numbers of Immortals. The shield does matter.
I'm not saying there's nothing a protoss player can do to counteract this, but I think many people are underestimating the Thor in TvP right now because of just how bad feedback/charge zealot was against them. Now that feedback isn't useful and hellbats deal so well with zealots....
The bolded part of what you said already existed in wings of liberty. There is specifically a build i was using and similar ones others may have known about involving 2 factory thors with +2 armor before weapons that were tankless factory openers that eventually added on tanks later.
They might be OK now in HOTS since the addition of the mine/battlehellion adds quite a bit to mech. Before they were good but depended on the map being a turtle map like shakuras/metropolis or depended on protoss playing entirely passive for their openings.
It's tough to say, there is a point in TvP right now in HOTS where you end up tankless hilariously enough because if Protoss makes a pure air army of carrier/tempest + templar obviously tanks are dead supply in that instance and you only benefit from building thors/vikings/ravens/mines at that point.
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On December 15 2012 02:03 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:
You should check Naama's mech vs P in WoL. He goes hellion/tank/banshee and later to tank/banshee/BC and I can say that that its very powerfull. Why so many dont build banshees or/and bc with their tanks? It just makes army much better. (and yeah, ofc he had ghosts, you should always have ghost with mech)
It was so funny to see like 40 stalker and 20 immortal get owned by tank/bc/banshee :D
that sounds really cool, but what does he do vs skytoss?
the main issue i see is that there are really good anti ground options (tank/hellion/banshee or ghost/tank) and some good air options (raven/viking), but the trouble is being able to react accordingly to what protoss does.
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I just tried basic Hellbat/Tank/Thor + Ravens as a support unit, because it basically hard counters both Immortals and Tempests.. Those 2 Units I fear most when playing mech. I have to say it works surprisingly well.. I'd love some high level player to test this composition at high master/grandmaster level.. Avilo, I'm looking at you lol.. :D
I also tried the same composition TvZ and well, against Hydra/Roach/Viper, PDD buyes you good 3-4 seconds. Then the Blinding Cloud wears off and your Tanks/Thors have free reign to obliterate Hydra/Roach.. You can also snipe Vipers with the new seeker missile, but you really need to save energy for PDD. If nothing, you trade Raven's energy for Vipers, because Vipers will die to Thors/Mines/Ravens.. The point is, you will keep most of your army alive.
I'm going to experiment more with this composition, but it seems that yamato so early in the game is not actually that bad..
edit: Ok, here is replay, just for demonstration purposes, I know Protoss played realtively bad.. http://drop.sc/284346
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On December 15 2012 02:47 MattBarry wrote:
Give the tank a shield piercing passive so it does 50 damage to shields like BW tank. Make it do like 35 to hardened shields so immortals can still deal with mass tanks
HAHAHAHAHHAHAH ok. breakdown:
make tanks ultra-rape immortals, so immortals can still deal with mass tanks
NO
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i dont like your opening at all..some reasons are
fast armory = yet it takes ages to start an upgrade, why not use it while its there?
early game = u ve like no units, any 1 base play will kill u if properly executed, any 2 base timing will be hard to stop. get like reactor on rax to produce marines so u can actually deal with early stuff.
besides that i think avilo said enough about your opponents, not really worth debating if its worthwhile to do that style. vs your kind of opponents, hell yea its doable, but u can also play real mech (tank etc) on that level of skill.
i think the higher u get into the rankings (very high master or gm) its just not rentable to go mech, any knowledgable protoss will destroy it, at least i ve not seen it done properly, yea sure u can have a pro game where its done (even in wol) but thats really rare.
i was only high master in wol when i was active but i never played bio so i feel like me + most people here who are not gm level can play mech, it doesnt really matter, u can win either way, even if bio is easier. but on pro level, no freakin way with how the immortal wrecks.
to leave with a positive thing to say, your pdd usage in the tempest game was okay. probably the only way to deal with tempest if u dont go mass viking. but well, he could ve feedbacked O.o
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Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech.
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On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech.
I like this part very much. As i see it, the biggest problem in Mech TvP right now is that it is very unforgiving if Terran is making even the slightest mistake. Protoss on the other hand can make more mistakes and still manage to stabilize.
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On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech.
this is also in response to your earlier post about the quality of my opponents and my opening. Your a grandmaster Avilo, im mid masters, you cant say "LOL the guys i play against would roll you!" yes Avilo but most people on TL aren't playing grandmasters protosses. It doesn't mean i cant have a thread or post my replays to give people some strats direction and have a discussion. You say my opening is bad, i have died once before the 12 minute mark, it was to a proxy chrono boosted oracle before patch #9 i just left he didnt actually kill me just like 10 of my scvs -_-. If i started actually dying from early toss aggression then yes i would tweak my build. But at my play level that is hardly a problem. Blink stalker all ins are the only early aggression i see and stalkers are just terrible vs thors in one base numbers. Couldn't you just leave a few widow mines around your base for warp prism? I actually have underused widow mines badly in my games and i keep forgetting about the upgrade. have you tried using upgraded widow mines in your mech compositions at all? id love to see some replays of that. Can yuo show me some replays of the games where you got "demolished" like you stated above?
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On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech.
This reads like the mindset someone who just recently lost a game would have before thinking things through. I don't mean to criticize, because I think exactly the same way when it feels like I did everything right and still lost.
1. Immortal/Archon/Zealot actually sounds like it'd be really bad against a number of things - air or ghosts, some Thors (which kill archons really fast) and of course you'd need a base of hellions to deal with the zealots. Most notably, I'd imagine hellion runbys would be amazing against such an army (with no stalkers/air to defend - unless he made a ton of cannons).
2. If your Thors are "getting demolished" by a ground army, you must be doing something wrong. Thors are cost effective against everything on the ground except charge zealots (see above section for them) - Immortals included if you can get an EMP.
3. Warp prism play isn't any stronger against mech than it is against bio - and in some ways it's weaker because your hellions can get back to defend faster than MMM can.
4. Your comment about tanks seems irrelevant given the flavor of this thread (being "tankless").
5. Air/Mech sharing armor upgrades isn't a punishment for going mech - it just isn't as much of a reward as you might like. And also, why on earth would you ever build vikings against a protoss ground force? Finally, how is it that your protoss can pursue three areas of upgrades (attack/armor/shields), yet you cannot (mech attack, air attack, mech/air armor)?
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On December 15 2012 07:34 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech. This reads like the mindset someone who just recently lost a game would have before thinking things through. I don't mean to criticize, because I think exactly the same way when it feels like I did everything right and still lost. 1. Immortal/Archon/Zealot actually sounds like it'd be really bad against a number of things - air or ghosts, some Thors (which kill archons really fast) and of course you'd need a base of hellions to deal with the zealots. Most notably, I'd imagine hellion runbys would be amazing against such an army (with no stalkers/air to defend - unless he made a ton of cannons). 2. If your Thors are "getting demolished" by a ground army, you must be doing something wrong. Thors are cost effective against everything on the ground except charge zealots (see above section for them) - Immortals included if you can get an EMP. 3. Warp prism play isn't any stronger against mech than it is against bio - and in some ways it's weaker because your hellions can get back to defend faster than MMM can. 4. Your comment about tanks seems irrelevant given the flavor of this thread (being "tankless"). 5. Air/Mech sharing armor upgrades isn't a punishment for going mech - it just isn't as much of a reward as you might like. And also, why on earth would you ever build vikings against a protoss ground force? Finally, how is it that your protoss can pursue three areas of upgrades (attack/armor/shields), yet you cannot (mech attack, air attack, mech/air armor)?
Immortal/archon/chargelot is the standard Pvmech...
And warp prisms are a lot stronger vs mech because if it gets through your turret ring you don't have easy access to mobile AA (marine) to shoot it down and end the harrassment.
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I see Protosses losing to Hellbat/Thor + any support all the time.. You build tank = gg for you.. Sad.. :/
edit: but i guess this is what Blizzard wants or what Blizzard means with "buffing mech"..
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On December 15 2012 07:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:34 Treehead wrote:On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech. This reads like the mindset someone who just recently lost a game would have before thinking things through. I don't mean to criticize, because I think exactly the same way when it feels like I did everything right and still lost. 1. Immortal/Archon/Zealot actually sounds like it'd be really bad against a number of things - air or ghosts, some Thors (which kill archons really fast) and of course you'd need a base of hellions to deal with the zealots. Most notably, I'd imagine hellion runbys would be amazing against such an army (with no stalkers/air to defend - unless he made a ton of cannons). 2. If your Thors are "getting demolished" by a ground army, you must be doing something wrong. Thors are cost effective against everything on the ground except charge zealots (see above section for them) - Immortals included if you can get an EMP. 3. Warp prism play isn't any stronger against mech than it is against bio - and in some ways it's weaker because your hellions can get back to defend faster than MMM can. 4. Your comment about tanks seems irrelevant given the flavor of this thread (being "tankless"). 5. Air/Mech sharing armor upgrades isn't a punishment for going mech - it just isn't as much of a reward as you might like. And also, why on earth would you ever build vikings against a protoss ground force? Finally, how is it that your protoss can pursue three areas of upgrades (attack/armor/shields), yet you cannot (mech attack, air attack, mech/air armor)? Immortal/archon/chargelot is the standard Pvmech... And warp prisms are a lot stronger vs mech because if it gets through your turret ring you don't have easy access to mobile AA (marine) to shoot it down and end the harrassment.
Hence widow mines...
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 15 2012 08:00 Pookie Monster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 07:39 avilo wrote:On December 15 2012 07:34 Treehead wrote:On December 15 2012 06:35 avilo wrote:
Well, just played some mech TvP games...some similar to what you're trying pookie, but i get demolished by people that actually build armies lol. Immortal/archon/zealot.
Played a guy that failed a 4 gate, and I tried to punish him with 2 base mech and somehow he holds it off...lol. The funny thing is I made tanks with siege off 2 facts, I think if i'd just made pure hellions off 3-4 factories i may have actually won LOL. The reason that's sad when you think about it is because it shows just how bad tanks are that someone can fail a 4 gate, and you're actually punished for building tanks and can't punish them back.
But if you just mass herrion it might actually be better than making any tanks at all...so counter intuitive that tanks suck this badly.
Played another game, and thors even without energy bar get demolished hardcore once there's enough immortals + other stuff.
I've just about given up on playing mech TvP. If even 1 warp prism gets thru to your base you lose the game because you can't send back half your army to deal with an infinite sized army being warped into your base. And if you move out of position even once, tanks are so bad against immortals that you can't even hold a position with 10 tanks already in siege mode - protoss just 1A's into you and laughs and you are left wondering "what the fuck did i do wrong?"
The buff then nerf to the armory split upgrades made it even worse because any time you build vikings just as before...you have 0/3 vikings vs 3/3/3 protoss ground. Which is just inherently punishing you for even attempting mech. This reads like the mindset someone who just recently lost a game would have before thinking things through. I don't mean to criticize, because I think exactly the same way when it feels like I did everything right and still lost. 1. Immortal/Archon/Zealot actually sounds like it'd be really bad against a number of things - air or ghosts, some Thors (which kill archons really fast) and of course you'd need a base of hellions to deal with the zealots. Most notably, I'd imagine hellion runbys would be amazing against such an army (with no stalkers/air to defend - unless he made a ton of cannons). 2. If your Thors are "getting demolished" by a ground army, you must be doing something wrong. Thors are cost effective against everything on the ground except charge zealots (see above section for them) - Immortals included if you can get an EMP. 3. Warp prism play isn't any stronger against mech than it is against bio - and in some ways it's weaker because your hellions can get back to defend faster than MMM can. 4. Your comment about tanks seems irrelevant given the flavor of this thread (being "tankless"). 5. Air/Mech sharing armor upgrades isn't a punishment for going mech - it just isn't as much of a reward as you might like. And also, why on earth would you ever build vikings against a protoss ground force? Finally, how is it that your protoss can pursue three areas of upgrades (attack/armor/shields), yet you cannot (mech attack, air attack, mech/air armor)? Immortal/archon/chargelot is the standard Pvmech... And warp prisms are a lot stronger vs mech because if it gets through your turret ring you don't have easy access to mobile AA (marine) to shoot it down and end the harrassment. Hence widow mines...
Do Widow Mines actually work in this situation? I can't imagine them getting past any moderate number of units to burrow in 5 range of the Warp Prism.
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EPT
