On December 12 2012 21:22 Pufne wrote: The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost. When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness. This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one. Do you guys think this would work?
NOT TRUE. Sure, if you make one or two widow mines as a sneaky early game contain, they suck once detection is out. But if you persist into the midgame and make groups of 6 or 7 widow mines and complement with vikings and maybe a raven, they are fucking powerful. (ZvT). You move them into the minreral line of a new base, and they shut it down forever.
Tbh the only change I see relevant is a nerf to their hitpoints. Buffs? Noooo.
Disclaimer: Haven't tried a focused swarm host response yet. May be that that alleviates the pain tt
I agree that the current state of widow mine makes it hard to balance because of its invisibility and relatively large burst damage, which can be very good in lower leagues but basically useless in higher leagues due to its lack of range and long cools down. I think the problem is that as long as widow mines shoot automated regenerating missiles it is going to be too good in lower leagues if its buffed but terrible in higher leagues. I propose a mode on the widow mine that gives it increased range and less cooldown in return for not being automAted, meaning you'll have to manually attack select and train missiles. This increases the skill ceiling and gives mines the needed buff in pro matches without really effecting casuals so much
Widowsmines aren't a failure imo like the guy above posted.
You can singlehandedly win the game in the first 4 minutes with widow mines. The problem is they get worse and worse. They just need some upgrades to increase their damage and firerate in the lategame. They go from horribly overpowered to weak-as-shit as the game goes on.
Some fuzion core upgrades would help, and while they add it they better put medivak upgrade their as well lol.
I think the issue is that they want the widow mine to be a viable passive board control unit and at the same time be a unit that you can use on the offense. The issue is that they are 2 very different things that require the unit to behave differently so they compromise all over the place.
I had a cool thought about making it like a sc1 reaver. make it slow and vulnerable and lay energy or mineral based mines so you have to run a couple around in a super medivac to keep them safe. This way you could build actual "minefields" instead of the lame board control the current widow mine offers.
Whatever happen I think the widow mine needs more focus in what it is meant to do instead of trying to make it a core all around good unit.
On December 14 2012 04:23 ohampatu wrote: Widowsmines aren't a failure imo like the guy above posted.
You can singlehandedly win the game in the first 4 minutes with widow mines. The problem is they get worse and worse. They just need some upgrades to increase their damage and firerate in the lategame. They go from horribly overpowered to weak-as-shit as the game goes on.
Some fuzion core upgrades would help, and while they add it they better put medivak upgrade their as well lol.
You just answered why the widow mine is a failure.. especially in the context of unit design.
edit - the same symptom that the reapers are falling victim to.
Spider mines need to be 2 supply because they are incredibly cheap for the amount of damage they do to harass at key timings in the game. You have to force terran to have a bloated supply cost in exchange for how safe you make the turtle, and the protection has a definite window where the supply cost is worth it. There seems to be some nice game sense/positioning mechanics for that role that makes the mine interesting to see on the board.
Widow mines don't require mech upgrades to do their job, so its easy to combine them with arbitrary compositions. The burrow upgrade and priority change hasn't really been tested in the metagame yet. Widow mine positioning micro has a lot of potential to be interesting as part of a unit comp in both mech and bio. I haven't seen a lot of experimentation on streams, but it has been fun to use personally.
Widow mine is fine because all you need is detect. Detect is one of the most basic units you can have out on the field. I don't see any valid points in wang's post.
They are not a failure because they haven't even been released retail, yet ... You all wait till the success of burrowed stuff becomes a reality. Burrow-charge, burrow move banes, we need more things that burrow.
A lot of people have been complaining that widow mines are useless vs Protoss, and there are usually two reasons given: that they are out-ranged by stalkers, and that Protoss units are "too beefy" for them to be cost effective. I'm not really interested in the stalker-range argument in this post. I'll focus on the "too beefy" complaint because I don't think anyone has nailed the core of the problem yet.
Technically speaking, since the widow mine 1-shots most units, almost any time it gets a single shot off it is guaranteed to have been cost effective in the sense that, even if it is then destroyed, it has destroyed a unit worth at least equivalent expenditure. Many people have pointed this out. However, it doesn't get at the core complaint. You don't make most units to merely trade roughly equivalent value in unit costs: instead you create units to do some trading, gain an advantage (by killing all the enemy units), and then do as much free damage as possible. Examples of this would be trading a couple of Banshees to kill off a couple of queens (not cost effective) in order to, with your surviving banshee, get a lot of "free" kills. Units are good only if they have, at least in some situations, the potential for this incredibly large upside. The goal is to put some units in the right situations where they can use this large upside.
The mechanics of widow mine damage make finding the right types of situations difficult. The obvious example is one widow mine and a bunch of zerglings. The potential for massive advantage is there if only you can get the widow mine in the right place to meet up with a mass of zerglings. Most commonly you will need to group more than one widow mine in order that the accumulating splash of several mines is able to take out a group of units. Widow mines become amazing when this is possible.
But this sort of situation, apart from zerglings, is rare. So how can widow mines be really useful apart from this? More traditional units get this kind of usefulness whenever they are the last unit standing in an engagement, and they have free reign for a certain amount of time (until reinforcements) to unload their DPS on an economy or infrastructure. But the 40 second cooldown keeps widow mines from being able to go this route. Most often, by the time 40 seconds is up, the opportunity for doing "free damage" is gone. Whatever effectiveness a widow has must therefore be instant.
Instant splash damage against large groups that do not, like zerglings, die from it truly IS a big advantage, but only if there is an opportunity to follow up against the weakened units. Think of it this way: 350 splash damage on 10 roaches vs. 120 (or whatever) to kill the widow mine is a big difference. But what good is the raw damage difference if the roaches all survive to destroy your command center? It becomes a real advantage if a smaller standing army is able to clean up those roaches much quicker because of the initial splash of the widow mine. But this advantage only lasts as long as the splash-damaged units STAY damaged.
So there are some situations where a widow mine can be extremely effective. Now let's talk about the widow mine vs. Protoss. Here the situation changes radically because of one factor: Protoss shield regeneration. Imagine, again, that a widow mine detonates on 10 zealots or stalkers. This force is now 350 hp weaker and when you bring in other units, it will die much more quickly. This is the same as vs. Zerg and vs. Terran. [let's forget medivacs for a moment because you have to actively acquire and use these units, whereas protoss shields is a passive ability]. Yet there is a key difference. Imagine there is a delay in getting your other units into the battle. Against T an Z this makes little difference, the 350 damage is still mostly there in 15 or 20 seconds. But against Protoss, after only 10 seconds, shields start to regenerate, and they regenerate quickly. In less than a minute, the entire 350 splash damage the widow mine produced is gone, and at no investment or attention cost to the Protoss player. That entire 350 splash damage is now worth less than if a single probe had been killed instead.
So that is the real problem. Any unit, to be worthwhile, need to have a huge upside in at least some situations. The widow mine has this by doing massive splash damage, but this advantage is too often nullified by Protoss rapid shield regen. It's not just that Protoss units are "too beefy"; it's that their beefiness is magnified against the way widow mines are most effective. This is all because of shield regen.
Incidentally, aren't we on our way to discovering a solution? What if widow mines had a special ability to do damage that simply ignored shields and was applied directly to HP. This would have the added interesting side effect of making widow mines a sort of hard counter to archons.
Widow Mine is NOT a spider mine. It is a lurker and have most of the strength and weaknesses of lurkers. Lurkers are bad against protoss outside of mass of zealots but amazing against weak and shorter ranged enemies. The other problem with widow mine is the lack of dark swam.....
The design of protoss is the real problem where, there is less positional play against it possible since it takes the minimum amount of space, fears the least from alpha damage, is least vulnerable to splash and ignore terrain more often then not and everything become a hp and damage grind.
Without giving tanks/mine 'absurd' alpha damage (100 for tanks at current price, ~200 for mines), I don't think positional play against protoss would work that well.
Dragoons were so big and clumsy that it needed huge surface area to attack that alpha strike worked because it is possible to alpha-kill dragoons faster then 2nd line dragoons can fill the space, while mine/vulture had big HP and can not be ignored. That is a far cry from super packed protoss formations in SC2, where 400+ resource units take zero space and gets into range easily.
On December 14 2012 10:06 President Dead wrote: Widow mine is fine because all you need is detect. Detect is one of the most basic units you can have out on the field. I don't see any valid points in wang's post.
They are not a failure because they haven't even been released retail, yet ... You all wait till the success of burrowed stuff becomes a reality. Burrow-charge, burrow move banes, we need more things that burrow.
You've missed my point. Defusing current Widow Mine safely not only need detection, but also units that outrange it. It would be a serious problem when you harass with air unit because both Protoss and Zerg has no mobile air unit that can defuse Widow Mine safely (Phoenix can't hit ground and its graviton beam is too close, Void Ray is too slow for harass, Mutalisk is outranged by Widow Mine, Brood Lord is too slow, let along any kinds of drops). This means that currently Widow Mine not only work too well in early map control, but also too well against (air) harass that effectively shut down almost any kinds of harass even with detection. And the resulting costs in both resources and supplies means it is not effective to hamper the enemy at other location beside behind your base. So the reason that it is difficult to balance Widow Mine is that its capability is too strong when enemy cannot simply disarm these mine which consequently result its impuisance late game at the front or flank, and simply decrease its supply cost is not a way to balance it. If you insist that Widow Mine's ability to stop harass definately worth its cost even in late game then perhaps you are right. But harass is always an entertaining part of Starcraft 2 and a couple of Widow Mine that cancels harass almost completely is not a way to make it more entertaining. I'd rather have a more versatile Widow Mine which is not insolubly effective against aur harass and more effective against something else.
On December 14 2012 12:37 imEnex wrote: The widow mine is either really effective or useless. That's how the unit just works.
Yep, it is a gimmick. Like a Cloaked Banshee or Dark Templar rush. Either you show up and do tons of damage, or you get shut down because your opponent was prepared and are now behind. There isn't much of an inbetween. The thing about the Widow Mine is that the Burrow is just half of the gimmick, the other half is the way it does damage. It does huge damage, but then nothing for 40 seconds...
So either it changes the game with said damage, or you've wasted your resources.
On December 14 2012 11:15 SWPIGWANG wrote: Widow Mine is NOT a spider mine. It is a lurker and have most of the strength and weaknesses of lurkers. Lurkers are bad against protoss outside of mass of zealots but amazing against weak and shorter ranged enemies. The other problem with widow mine is the lack of dark swam......
You hit the nail on the head!
Avilo uses drilling claw mines as cover for his vikings as they kite against corrupters. Cleaning them out as they inadvertently wandered into WM range.
Past 15min, I can't access youtube.com from where I am.
It trade very cost efficently in almost every situation. There must exist ways to deal with it. Is a very good unit either for offensive or defensive purposes, either for lategame with the upgrade, or early to press, or to zone.
Even avilo, one of the most T biased guys I read here says is ok, so it should be at least fine, lol.
On December 14 2012 16:51 Belha wrote: Wm is really good right now.
It trade very cost efficently in almost every situation. There must exist ways to deal with it. Is a very good unit either for offensive or defensive purposes, either for lategame with the upgrade, or early to press, or to zone.
Even avilo, one of the most T biased guys I read here says is ok, so it should be at least fine, lol.
I know!
The counter to widow mines is a range 6 unit followed by a range 11 detector. That's its counter. That's all there is too it.
Why is there so much QQ? It's no more OP than cloaked banshees, cloaked ghost EMPs, DTs and banelings!
On December 14 2012 12:37 imEnex wrote: The widow mine is either really effective or useless. That's how the unit just works.
Yep, it is a gimmick. Like a Cloaked Banshee or Dark Templar rush. Either you show up and do tons of damage, or you get shut down because your opponent was prepared and are now behind. There isn't much of an inbetween. The thing about the Widow Mine is that the Burrow is just half of the gimmick, the other half is the way it does damage. It does huge damage, but then nothing for 40 seconds...
So either it changes the game with said damage, or you've wasted your resources.
True, but compare the resources you need to spend on them to banshees or dts, its just too low of an investment. Theyre incredibly strong in the early game, and against air harass as well. Especially vs mutas
On December 14 2012 12:37 imEnex wrote: The widow mine is either really effective or useless. That's how the unit just works.
Yep, it is a gimmick. Like a Cloaked Banshee or Dark Templar rush. Either you show up and do tons of damage, or you get shut down because your opponent was prepared and are now behind. There isn't much of an inbetween. The thing about the Widow Mine is that the Burrow is just half of the gimmick, the other half is the way it does damage. It does huge damage, but then nothing for 40 seconds...
So either it changes the game with said damage, or you've wasted your resources.
True, but compare the resources you need to spend on them to banshees or dts, its just too low of an investment. Theyre incredibly strong in the early game, and against air harass as well. Especially vs mutas
There's enough solutions posted in the last three weeks to deal with widow mines and still go muta. - Point man muta - Overlord sac
If you still want to enjoy ZOMG MUTAS OWNZ J00 TROLLOLOLOL, feel free to stick with WoL, you won't be missed.
On December 14 2012 12:37 imEnex wrote: The widow mine is either really effective or useless. That's how the unit just works.
Yep, it is a gimmick. Like a Cloaked Banshee or Dark Templar rush. Either you show up and do tons of damage, or you get shut down because your opponent was prepared and are now behind. There isn't much of an inbetween. The thing about the Widow Mine is that the Burrow is just half of the gimmick, the other half is the way it does damage. It does huge damage, but then nothing for 40 seconds...
So either it changes the game with said damage, or you've wasted your resources.
True, but compare the resources you need to spend on them to banshees or dts, its just too low of an investment. Theyre incredibly strong in the early game, and against air harass as well. Especially vs mutas
There's enough solutions posted in the last three weeks to deal with widow mines and still go muta. - Point man muta - Overlord sac
If you still want to enjoy ZOMG MUTAS OWNZ J00 TROLLOLOLOL, feel free to stick with WoL, you won't be missed.
yeah those suggestion that tell you to walk in overseerspeed above ground and tell you to sac 1 muta = 100 gas for 1 mine = 25 gas. and those suggestion that also dont tell that ling bling muta is EXACTLY the same as in WoL while not only widow mine as a counter is new in HOTS but also: medivac healing buff, medivac speedbuff, hellbat raping lings, widow mine raping lings, blings and mutas. so mutaplay would be way harder to do even if widow mine wouldnt hit air, hell even if widow mine wouldnt exist at all ling bling muta would be a lot harder to play because of MMM and hellbat.
On December 14 2012 12:37 imEnex wrote: The widow mine is either really effective or useless. That's how the unit just works.
Yep, it is a gimmick. Like a Cloaked Banshee or Dark Templar rush. Either you show up and do tons of damage, or you get shut down because your opponent was prepared and are now behind. There isn't much of an inbetween. The thing about the Widow Mine is that the Burrow is just half of the gimmick, the other half is the way it does damage. It does huge damage, but then nothing for 40 seconds...
So either it changes the game with said damage, or you've wasted your resources.
True, but compare the resources you need to spend on them to banshees or dts, its just too low of an investment. Theyre incredibly strong in the early game, and against air harass as well. Especially vs mutas
There's enough solutions posted in the last three weeks to deal with widow mines and still go muta. - Point man muta - Overlord sac
If you still want to enjoy ZOMG MUTAS OWNZ J00 TROLLOLOLOL, feel free to stick with WoL, you won't be missed.
yeah those suggestion that tell you to walk in overseerspeed above ground and tell you to sac 1 muta = 100 gas for 1 mine = 25 gas. and those suggestion that also dont tell that ling bling muta is EXACTLY the same as in WoL while not only widow mine as a counter is new in HOTS but also: medivac healing buff, medivac speedbuff, hellbat raping lings, widow mine raping lings, blings and mutas. so mutaplay would be way harder to do even if widow mine wouldnt hit air, hell even if widow mine wouldnt exist at all ling bling muta would be a lot harder to play because of MMM and hellbat.
You make it sound like its the Terran's fault for Zerg wanting to use outdated builds. I'm sure roach/speedling mid-game BO works real well with oracles out. *sarcasm*
EPT
