|
On December 12 2012 21:22 Pufne wrote:
I proposed an idea earlier but never had any response to it.
The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost.
When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness.
This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one.
Do you guys think this would work?
This sounds like an awesome idea.
|
On December 12 2012 21:22 Pufne wrote:
I proposed an idea earlier but never had any response to it.
The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost.
When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness.
This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one.
Do you guys think this would work?
What exactly is a "lategame upgrade" tho ?
Even armory seems early for that kind of upgrade.
|
I enjoy your little minelayer Idea. If durable materials increased the duration of the spider mine, I could see it becoming a viable upgrade.
|
So Terrans should get a weak vulture/reaver?
A reaver that spawns spider mines?
How is this superior/entertaining/etc to the current version?
Please explain.
|
On December 12 2012 23:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 21:22 Pufne wrote:
I proposed an idea earlier but never had any response to it.
The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost.
When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness.
This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one.
Do you guys think this would work? What exactly is a "lategame upgrade" tho ? Even armory seems early for that kind of upgrade.
Very valid point. It could have the current beta upgrade to widow mines or weapons/armor 3 or making it fusion core level to further delay it. There are lots of possible ways to delay something if the results it would have on gameplay are good enough.
I would like to see the widow mine as an early harass and area control unit forcing detection and then after detection becoming a defensive unit that helps defend against pushes and then lategame reemerging as an area control and scouting unit without the drawback of a two supply unit thus making it useful again in an lategame 200/200 army.
|
I use the widow mine only for defense. Its way too hard for me to micro them too. Sieging Tanks/EMPs/Micro Bio AND burrow-micro Mines? ...way too hard! From a balance standpoint I would say the mine is fine. When you oppontent has detection they can be killed without a problem. I could maybe see a range-nerf incoming, because normally 2 Mines are enough to defend your whole base against drops.
|
On December 12 2012 23:28 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 21:22 Pufne wrote:
I proposed an idea earlier but never had any response to it.
The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost.
When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness.
This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one.
Do you guys think this would work? What exactly is a "lategame upgrade" tho ? Even armory seems early for that kind of upgrade.
An upgrade doesn't have to be far in the tech tree to be a late game upgrade. It could simply be very expensive and take a lot of time to research, so researching it just wouldn't be cost effective in early to mid game.
If the upgrade to change the WM's supply to 1 cost 250/250, would you really research it before reaching max supply cap? No, you'd make a bunch of supply depots instead.
|
On December 12 2012 21:30 AoWGoDLiKe wrote:
the supply costs are fine. every single gateunit costs 2 supply, and the widow mine one shots them... as well as many other units
Bad comparison. Protoss units are never supply cheap because they're so beefy and powerful, additionally gateway units don't have a once per 40 seconds attack speed, and aren't hard countered by detection. While the purpose of the mine is to promote board control and force detection having it as 2 supply is a bit odd as it currently makes them "okay" before late-game, and subpar after; the numbers should be tweaked and it should be lowered to 0.5 or 1 supply.
|
I have a whacky idea that noone seems to have come up with yet. I'm really not sure what the consequences would be, but I figure it would be even more rewarding micro wise. What do you think would happen if Widow Mines weren't cloaked?
|
I suppose that a 1 supply window mine with 80 damages instead of 160 would be way better.
|
I am interested in seeing more games where widow mine is attempted in the late game in every match-up. Very few players I have gone up against have tried to use it in the late game en masse since they were given the upgrade. So, they may be dead supply or no one has given them their fair shake. I think I'll make more of a concerted effort to make a bunch and try it out in each match-up. 
I find that they are okay for positional control, as long as you are willing to move them around a lot. I personally use them for a lot of bait and switch tactics and can catch players moving in retreat or to engage with well placed mines. The OP assumes a player is either going to be leaving them by themselves and not moving them, or using them in the front of the army. I think before we pronounce a unit a balance nightmare, let's give it a try in as many scenarios instead of theory crafting.
|
As a Zerg player Id prefer that they reduce the damage dealt or at least make it so it can't hit air. I just don't see how it's fair that I have sacrifice a Muta just to begin harassing Terran. They can reduce the supply cost to compensate for lower damage I guess.
|
I dont understand the reasoning behind making there be a 1 supply late game upgrade because isnt the reason behind making it 2 supply in the first place was so that it can't be mass in the late game? So if they are going to add a 1 supply upgrade, why dont they just make it 1 supply in the first place. I doubt making it 1 supply would have that much effect on the early game considering that supply isnt much of a problem in the early game because supply only matter in the late game right?
On December 13 2012 03:33 sagefreke wrote:
As a Zerg player Id prefer that they reduce the damage dealt or at least make it so it can't hit air. I just don't see how it's fair that I have sacrifice a Muta just to begin harassing Terran. They can reduce the supply cost to compensate for lower damage I guess.
That is because if it doesnt hit air, then mech opening would die to void ray all-in. Reducing the damage dealt would also make the mine useless considering it already neglected in TvP. Although I can agree that it can be very strong TvZ
|
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 13 2012 04:00 SheaR619 wrote:I dont understand the reasoning behind making there be a 1 supply late game upgrade because isnt the reason behind making it 2 supply in the first place was so that it can't be mass in the late game? So if they are going to add a 1 supply upgrade, why dont they just make it 1 supply in the first place. I doubt making it 1 supply would have that much effect on the early game considering that supply isnt much of a problem in the early game because supply only matter in the late game right? Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 03:33 sagefreke wrote:
As a Zerg player Id prefer that they reduce the damage dealt or at least make it so it can't hit air. I just don't see how it's fair that I have sacrifice a Muta just to begin harassing Terran. They can reduce the supply cost to compensate for lower damage I guess. That is because if it doesnt hit air, then mech opening would die to void ray all-in. Reducing the damage dealt would also make the mine useless considering it already neglected in TvP. Although I can agree that it can be very strong TvZ
This is such a problematic theme in balancing Mech. All the splash things that work pretty much fine in Mech vs Z or T - Siege Tanks, Hellion/Hellbat, Widow Mines (even Thors AA to some extent) - are either pretty good against T or Z and pretty bad against P, or they are soul-crushingly good against Z or T, and pretty good against P. For example, Hellbats in their current form, just for them to be pretty good against Chargelots, they now just absurdly crush Zerglings. Their units have so much more HP, but only slightly less speed, especially when you factor in things like Blink/Charge/Warp in/Colossus cliff+unit walk/Warp Prisms. EMP is really the only consolation in this dynamic, and it is pretty amazing. Still, it's beyond me at this point how to make these Mech splash units control space like they do vs Z and/or T, against P. Outside of giving them all a +shield damage bonus lol, which I think would be a really sloppy and lame change.
|
On December 13 2012 04:28 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 04:00 SheaR619 wrote:I dont understand the reasoning behind making there be a 1 supply late game upgrade because isnt the reason behind making it 2 supply in the first place was so that it can't be mass in the late game? So if they are going to add a 1 supply upgrade, why dont they just make it 1 supply in the first place. I doubt making it 1 supply would have that much effect on the early game considering that supply isnt much of a problem in the early game because supply only matter in the late game right? On December 13 2012 03:33 sagefreke wrote:
As a Zerg player Id prefer that they reduce the damage dealt or at least make it so it can't hit air. I just don't see how it's fair that I have sacrifice a Muta just to begin harassing Terran. They can reduce the supply cost to compensate for lower damage I guess. That is because if it doesnt hit air, then mech opening would die to void ray all-in. Reducing the damage dealt would also make the mine useless considering it already neglected in TvP. Although I can agree that it can be very strong TvZ This is such a problematic theme in balancing Mech. All the splash things that work pretty much fine in Mech vs Z or T - Siege Tanks, Hellion/Hellbat, Widow Mines (even Thors AA to some extent) - are either pretty good against T or Z and pretty bad against P, or they are soul-crushingly good against Z or T, and pretty good against P. For example, Hellbats in their current form, just for them to be pretty good against Chargelots, they now just absurdly crush Zerglings. Their units have so much more HP, but only slightly less speed, especially when you factor in things like Blink/Charge/Warp in/Colossus cliff+unit walk/Warp Prisms. EMP is really the only consolation in this dynamic, and it is pretty amazing. Still, it's beyond me at this point how to make these Mech splash units control space like they do vs Z and/or T, against P. Outside of giving them all a +shield damage bonus lol, which I think would be a really sloppy and lame change.
Slight delay on tanks attack so they can overkill, increased range, higher dmg, slower firerate, zergs can now force useless shots on a few lings & toss suffer from em more.
|
I think they are fine. Lategame they have the exactly same problem that all other 50ressource per supply units have. Supplyinefficiency. Time to transition out of them as much as possible I guess...
|
On December 13 2012 01:13 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
So Terrans should get a weak vulture/reaver?
A reaver that spawns spider mines?
How is this superior/entertaining/etc to the current version?
Please explain.
The Widow Mine as I proposed is capable of burrow itself and hide from the enemy. When it is setting up mine field there will be only a few second when it is exposed to enemy's sight before it borrow. So if a profesional player is keen enough to predict enemy's movement then every zone his/her opponent has not keep constant sight for 45 second will going to becomes a deadly minefield. So the Widow Mine can not only be used defensively like vulture and reaver in Brood War, but can used offensively to effectively punish enemy that are not keen enough to prevent any loophole in their sight.
|
On December 13 2012 03:33 sagefreke wrote:
As a Zerg player Id prefer that they reduce the damage dealt or at least make it so it can't hit air. I just don't see how it's fair that I have sacrifice a Muta just to begin harassing Terran. They can reduce the supply cost to compensate for lower damage I guess.
That is one of the problems that has been listed in my OP. If Widow Mine set up spider mine that can only splash damage air units by exploding beneath them then air harass unit such as mutas would dodge those mine easily by abusing terrain, and a keen player will not necessarily loss one muta just because he is trying to harass.
|
As making the widow mine a free asset created by an ability no longer seems to be on the table, it needs to have its supply cost reduced.
For a board control asset, you need to be able to produce them in quantity without greatly weakening your actual army. Reducing the mine to 0.5 supply (baneling class unit) is a good idea. This may require adjusting its damage, but most likely would have little impact except allow terrans to spend more resources on more army. Having more mines will cost more resources- in fact, at the same cost density as banelings.
I am confused why a burrow time reduction is the upgrade they chose for the mine. The mine is supposed to be a positional unit that you pre-place- an upgrade to make it less positional is counterproductive. It's also not a terribly interesting upgrade. An upgrade to give the mine itself a self-destruct ability, or give it some new functionality or significant stat alteration would be better. And also more in accord with other research in the game.
Here's an idea: reduce the mine's supply cost to 0.5. Reduce its attack damage substantially, while still dealing enough damage with splash to be relevant. And give it a researchable self-destruct that it can cast on a target within 5 range that expends the mine, but does its present single-target damage of 160 with 40 splash, which the player must manually activate. On manual cast, after research, it still gibs dropships and other units, but kills the mine.
|
Why is it a problem that the widow mine is hard to balance? I guess we don't want Browder and Kim working too
hard do we?
your suggestions doesn't make it any easier to balance either, you're making the widow mine mechanics more complicated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
