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Why Widow Mine is Hard to Balance
The current state of the Widow Mine has some problems. The first problem is that it's difficult to defuse the mine without detection. Since currently the Widow Mine fires an missile at a target in range that is unable to dodge, the only way to go through the area without detection is to sacrifice one unit. The second problem is that when enemy has detection, mine defusing becomes too easy and Widow Mine becomes so ineffective that barely worth its cost.
In my opinion the first problem is solely due to the way Widow Mine attacks and thus can be completely solved by changing it. The second problem seems a little bit complex, but I think the major issue is that when the current Widow Mine set up to block the area it has to risk the Widow Mine itself to enemy's detection, so when enemy use detection to defuse and kill your Widow Mine, what you lost is not only 75 minerals and 25 gases, but also your time to build units to fill the 2 supplies, which you would have filled with 2/3 of a siege tank. This problem combined with the former problem have created a balance dilemma: the unavoidability and the resulted effectiveness of an undetected Widow Mine means that if the Widow Mine is able to survive the detection some how, it would be totally overpowered. However, this dilemma also means that if there is a solution to the former problem, then combined with the solution of the later problem it will solve the two problem without disturbing the balance.
The following solution to the first problem is based on the fact of the similarity of the Widow Mine's missile attacks and the activated spider mine's attacks if you regard the missile as the spider mine itself. The idea is simple: If instead of shooting unavoidable missile the Widow Mine shoots spider mine that behaves similar to the Brood War counterpart then a lot of issue based on the unavoidability of Widow Mine attacks will be solved in a more interesting manner. Currently those issue are:
Difficulty to fight for map control against Widow Mine early on without mobile detection. If Widow Mine shoot spider mine that is vulnerable to attacks then mine defusing with ranged units would be possible. This however, will not render Widow Mine useless in pro game since difficulty increase dramatically when several mine attacks simultaneously.
Extremely high risk to harass with air unit or drops. If Widow Mine shoot spider mine however, this issue could be solved by adjusting some feature of the spider mine. For example, since spider mine is ground unit it cannot attacks air units directly. It can, however, charge underneath them and explode dealing splash damage. Air units could still dodge it by abusing terrain as spider mine cannot travel across cliff. So again this allows skillful players to dodge mine by micro while Widow Mine has not necessarily lost its anti-air capability.
Although the solution above may decrease the effectiveness of the Widow Mine, with it we could solve the second problem and make Widow Mine more effective in late game while keep its balance undisturbed. The solution of the second problem take one more step further: If the Widow Mine not only shoot spider mine, but set up a spider mine that can attack on its own, then it would no longer requires the Widow Mine to stay at the front and risk itself. Even if the enemy with detection could defuse your spider mine with ease, as long as your Widow Mine itself stay unharmed you could set up another spider mine later. The Widow Mine's ability to set up the spider mine may has a cool down of 40 second, and every Widow Mine might only support one spider mine at a time. The ability could also be energy based, that takes 25 energy which requires 45 second to refuel to set up a spider mine which has a limited lifespan of 45 second. By giving a limited lifespan to the spider mine the Widow Mine is required to constantly replenish the mine field, risking itself, but if you managed to set up the mine field unharmed, the rewording zone control is definitely worth it. The Widow Mine could even has a maximum energy pool of 100 enable it to quickly set a mine field of 4 mines if it have saved enough energy.
With the change above the Widow Mine would have becomes a machine that could set up mine field. What it excels than the previous Widow Mine is that every single one you sneak in and out of their territory without being destroyed gives constant fear to the opponent, even if the mine field has been defused, and stall the enemy and let them wait for detection or defuse with micro one by one. To better fulfill the job the Widow Mine could even have the borrow ability, that allows it to hide in enemy's territory.
So the conclusion is to change the Widow Mine to the following, that both give enemy with sufficient micro to fight it early on, and pose a threat to the enemy even in late game:
Widow mine have 100 maximum energy and 25 initial energy and two abilities: burrow and set up spider mine.
Set up spider mine: it cost 25 energy to set up a spider mine at its location. The spider mine has limited hp (allowing mine defusing) and can exist for 45 second before expired. When an enemy comes in range (such as 5), the spider mine activates and unburrow itself, and after a very small period of time (allowing mine defusing), the mine charges towards the enemy and explode, dealing splash damage. The spider mine can be activated by air unit and charges underneath them and explode, although the mine can't travel across cliff, allowing dodging by air unit. The mine can also be activated by invisible ground enemy if they accidentally stepped on the mine (melee range). The mine has zero collision radius. The Widow Mine cannot set up spider mine while burrowed.
Burrow: Widow Mine can borrow itself and hide from the enemy.
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Don't you think the upgrade changes the way it is used and makes the unit retain usefulness? I don't think any change is needed.
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United Kingdom12028 Posts
On December 12 2012 18:46 DeCoup wrote:
Don't you think the upgrade changes the way it is used and makes the unit retain usefulness? I don't think any change is needed.
I think the supply cost is still to high late game.
Mech gets rolled over if you don't have a really high amount of tanks or thors depending on how you're playing, and to get a decent number of mines this removes a hell of a lot of tanks/thors.
It's even worse when you need vikings, but can't build them due to having dead supply in mines.
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On December 12 2012 18:52 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 18:46 DeCoup wrote:
Don't you think the upgrade changes the way it is used and makes the unit retain usefulness? I don't think any change is needed. I think the supply cost is still to high late game.
I agree. If they truly want to promote board control, which in turn promotes better and more interesting game-play, I think a 0.5 supply completely disposable unit would be more appropriate as opposed to the wacky idea of a 2 supply mine that reloads itself in the current build.
I do appreciate that Blizzard is working with us though. Terran is the board control race after all.
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Match up dependent is what i think about the widow mine, it can make or break your tvt games, it can be really good in tvz (probably too strong in that match up) and its completly useless in tvp
i ve won games in tvt just because some widow mine targeted the "right" marine in the middle of a pack so they were severly damaged going into the fight a second later and in tvz it can stop any 2 base low eco allin and stops zerg taking a fast third, plus muta harass is that much harder to pull off
tvp. i dont know, it always feels like i waste my supply and they have early mobile detection with range 6 stalkers so mines get obsolete pretty fast
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The first "problem" is not a problem, it is supposed to force detection or at least army spreading while moving. The second problem is down to it's 2 supply.
I say lower the single target dmg to 100 or so and make it 1 supply.
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I think that the fundamental issue I have with the widowmine is that it is a persistant unit. Mines in BW were really strong but since they exploded and went away, it was fine. So in order to make widowmines balanced at all, you had to make them cost supplies and quite a lot of resources in order to make up for the persistance. And now you end up with a unit that isnt good enough the first time but if it gets to go off a few times it is.
I don't see a way around changing the actual attack so that it kills the mine itself, but as you pointed out in the op, there are ways around that. Personally I would love to see the warhound back in the game with a substantial nerf to its damage output and an energy bar with the ability to place widow mines, much like you describe. Then the mine can be effective and you will still have some use for the supply in the late game.
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remove air and cloak hitting (last one was removed already so blizzard realizes it), make it 1 or even 0,5 supply, remove single target damage (which is completely luckbased in big fights and i dont want a GSL to be decided by the single target damage luckily hitting some ultras or some lings).
this would fix mutas, make them viable in later game stages and the bad luckfactor, which is very bad for a strategy game in which skill should decide who wins, would be removed.
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I wish Blizzard would increase the max supply limit by 50 with each of the expansions. Just like TFT increased max supply by 10. I already feel like its too easy to max out, and a 200/200 army is not nearly as scary looking in SC2 as it was in BW.
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On December 12 2012 19:58 Rokit5 wrote:
I wish Blizzard would increase the max supply limit by 50 with each of the expansions. Just like TFT increased max supply by 10. I already feel like its too easy to max out, and a 200/200 army is not nearly as scary looking in SC2 as it was in BW.
That's because a 200/200 army in BW could tear the wrong comp up real quick.
200/200 siege tanks + cloaked wraiths for spotting + science vessels could tear a 200/200 gateway army real quick.
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On December 12 2012 20:07 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 19:58 Rokit5 wrote:
I wish Blizzard would increase the max supply limit by 50 with each of the expansions. Just like TFT increased max supply by 10. I already feel like its too easy to max out, and a 200/200 army is not nearly as scary looking in SC2 as it was in BW. That's because a 200/200 army in BW could tear the wrong comp up real quick. 200/200 siege tanks + cloaked wraiths for spotting + science vessels could tear a 200/200 gateway army real quick.
afaik, cloaked wraiths are very rare in BW TvP even for spotting, but otherwise what you said is correct. A maxed out BW Terran mech army is extremely difficult to engage for any race.
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My biggest problem as a Zerg is how mines shut down any early aggression. With roach/baneling attacks gone, there's nothing to keep Terran players honest.
I wonder if instead of early spores, we should get overseer at tier 1 (with a pre-upgrade speed nerf so that scouting isn't too easy). And obviously they shouldn't shoot up, but I'm pretty sure that'll be fixed next patch.
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I proposed an idea earlier but never had any response to it.
The problem with the mine is that it is very powerfull when enemy lacks detection thus justifying two supply cost.
When detection is on the board mines loose effectiveness.
This means the mine becomes a dead end investment.
To make the mine more usable late game I propose adding an late game upgrade to lower the supply cost to one.
Do you guys think this would work?
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So pretty much saying that with proper counter, the window mine isnt cost effective.
come on lol. Are they any unit that are cost effective vs their proper counter ?
The only thing I would change is : can be trigger by ground only. Cloak or burrowed ground unit can trigger it too. But I am far from pro and maybe I just didnt figure how to deal with it properly yet.
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the supply costs are fine. every single gateunit costs 2 supply, and the widow mine one shots them... as well as many other units
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1 supply would be so overpowered for a unit who can one shot nearly all other unit or 20 zergling...
Widow mine are already a bit OP, i'm zerg and when I random and do some I always win lol
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Guys enough with the ground only. Part of its general design was to allow mech to deal with air easier. It would be a gloryfied siege tank without air attack.
Since clocked units can no long be hit undetected i would say protoss are fine to deal with widow mines. Be it outranging with collosus, Tempest or simply disarming them with loads of Hallusinated propes there will be ways of dealing with them.
For Zerg i would say swarm hosts or obviosly Brood lords late game. So really no problem here either.
So where is the problem?
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I completely agree with the OPs Ananlysis of the current problems with the Widow Mine. And I also feel that the Widow Mine is currently in an awkward spot between being a mine and being a real unit. I think the onlz solution to this problem is to fully change it to the one or the other:
1. - Cheap Mine that suicides again, 1 Supply
- Stats balanced accordingly
2. Random example for real unit: Minedeployer
- Increase cost to 150/75, TL requirement
- Minedeployer: can carry max. three Mines simultaneously
- Either deploys his Mines like Spidermines, Mines (not targetable, killable when triggered, deploytime 2 seconds) do 30 splash, no extra single target damage, new Mines can be rebought for 25mins, buildtime in the Deployer 20 seconds
- Or burrows (burrowtime 3secs) itself without his mines being deployed and functions like current Widow Mine, 250 single target damage and 60 splash, range 6, can be targeted, after shot all three mines are gone and have to be rebought normally
I think both are imaginable, however I really would like to see something along the lines of the second version because on the one hand it would allow for moderate cheap space control without committing supply (it also forces the opponent to do something against it or the minefield will grow bigger and bigger simililarly to creep) and on the other hand it could still be a high risk/high reward type of thing with good single target damage, for example against Immortals, Protoss air, Ultras etc. It would also be more easily balancable by tweaking Mine cost/buildtime or an Upgrade requirement for the singletargetdamage version etc.
I just think the current version is a bad hybrid between a one-time-use mine and a real unit.
Tell me what you think.
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Since when do you care about rules?
I understand TL letting trolls post as long as they're known players, but don't be a hypocrite.
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EPT
